French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

This was the original title, as preserved by a quote in post #7

Ohhhh, I see. Today there's been some backtracking from your original position: now only most of the accused are locally sourced, backing down from previously claiming 'all' of them were.

The only reason anything is 'difficult' here is because you keep pushing an overbearing narrative without the necessary facts to make the claims of absolute nature. It's not a difficult concept: claims require evidence.

The contempt for the story requires no civility. The contempt towards the men involved in this story should have no civility.

(well according to rules, I think we need to post in a civil manner).

But there is no need to be uncivil when it comes to men. I know I find it offensive that the men in my life would be even mentioned in the same breath as these people.

There are some terrible people in the world. That is a sad reality.

You said this

"it really is a sad indictment of men that there are men in what we like to believe is a civilised society who, when presented with an opportunity of committing rape in the belief they won’t face any consequences or punishment, are willing to avail of the opportunity when they believe it presents itself"

Why is it a sad indictment of men as a whole?

That is mind blowing. To have thought, this case couldn't get more shocking ..

I saw this comment about the husband in the New York Times today:

He hopes to use the trial to explain himself to his now ex-wife and estranged children, according to his lawyer, Béatrice Zavarro.

What on earth is he going to say?

I post with a certain amount of apprehension 😥

If I look it up, I get about 1% for the number of people who are psychopaths, slightly skewed in favour of men but not as much as you'd imagine. I've very little idea how dangerous women are in this regard and I won't speculate. But as a man, I have a pretty good idea about dangerous these men can be and it's Extremely. The only thing that's stopping them just going on a murder/pillage spree because it's Friday night and why not, is consequence; their self interest trumps (ha!) everything else.

Some other number, I'm guessing maybe 5% (don't hold me to that) are sociopathic to some degree. In other words they don't care. I might speculate that the 30 who walked away might fall into that grouping but I might be wrong.

In reality that means that 99% of men aren't going to be murdering raping nut jobs. But in Ireland, that still leaves tens of thousands of those who are or could be. Only the fear of consequence, social or criminal, holds them back. The issues really start to happen when these nutjobs get into positions of power, something that tends to happen anyway because psychopathic men (and, yes, women) are drawn to hold these positions. Once the fear of consequence slips, you're screwed. Which is why constant vigilance and oversight of those in power is an absolute must.

By happy coincidence, the Internet draws this lot together. Whereas before, you'd be some marginalised loser torturing mice or something, now there's a mice torturing chatroom where you can feel accepted. Isn't that special.

And so you get the situation in the Church. A place which draws people (men and women) who, say, weren't going to make it as a doctor or engineer together. Where, for decades, enough psychopaths had enough control that they and their friends could do whatever they liked, at least to the poor in society where the fear of consequence was zero. And so the worst things imaginable happened. Horrendous nightmares from people who, if called out on it, wouldn't even understand what you were talking about. "I was just raping a few kids and I've lost my job. I'M the Victim!".

And if you were in the 95% who cared, you were shown very clearly what would happen if you said anything. You would go to hell, literally. And this is how an entire populace is cowed in abject terror. It's why those who spoke up are the bravest souls in the world and have my respect and admiration. Would I be as brave? I can't say but I might not be. Shame over Pain 😞.

Whenever you can get an ideology involved, this is practically inevitable. In Ireland it was Irish Catholicism, honed to a razor sharp point over centuries. In other places, well, it was other things. Other religions. I listened recently to a really grim podcast about Helmut Kentler (Behind the Bastards; I highly recommend not listening). This guy managed to create a system in Berlin, sanctioned by the freaking government, where street kids got fostered by paedophiles. Not only did the Berlin govt know what was happening, anyone who spoke out got their P45 straight away. Cancelled in other words.

Why? Because (simplistically because this isn't going to be a 2 hour read) someone decided the Nazis were hung up about sexuality and therefore if you were sexually liberated, you wouldn't be a Nazi. Which would be Bad m'kay. Throw a few psychopaths in there and suddenly your kids had to be liberated too. And that meant molesting them because of course it did. And if you were an ordinary person who thought "WTF is this?" Well. You are a Nazi, aren't you. Aren't you!?

As I stated it is both a heck of a lot of men, "unimanigable in its enormity" from the victim's perspective but also a tiny number of men from a population perspective. I am not misrepresenting anything.

I can't even begin to imagine the hurt caused by the depravity, depth, duration and quantity of her husband's and his his accomplices actions. I hope they get the justice they deserve and never see freedom again.

I'm not trying to downplay the issue of sexual assault against women. A broadly targeted targetted consent education programme would be a pointless in this case.

It is important to understand that these 70 were from a self selected group, further selected by the main protagonist for being at the extreme within that already self selected group, probably curated and compromised in some way so they would be unlikely to inform on the main protagonist when he finally invited them to his house.

The protagonists are a tiny tiny minority of the population. If society does not recognise and act on that reality it will not effectively target and deal with them until after the fact.

You're the one who keeps harping on about the places people are from. I make one mention of it in a longish post and you concentrate solely on that. Anything to say about the rest of my comment, or just looking for another poster to paint as... well, I dunno what you're trying to do tbh...

Whether they came from far away or local, what does it matter? Scum is scum. I was just pointing out local to Paris is not a small area.

Why is it a sad indictment of men as a whole?

I don’t understand your question? I explained right after I made the point, why it’s a sad indictment of men as a whole. You even quoted it:

there are men in what we like to believe is a civilised society who, when presented with an opportunity of committing rape in the belief they won’t face any consequences or punishment, are willing to avail of the opportunity when they believe it presents itself. 

There was no being uncivil when it comes to men. You’re not alone either in finding it offensive that the men in your life would be mentioned in the same breath as these men. Most people understandably would, even the OP does, and I know I sure as hell do… and that’s precisely the point - we’re all offended by the thought that men we know would be associated with men who commit rape, whereas the focus of our attention should be on preventing men from committing rape. Because, at the risk of stating the blatantly obvious - women and girls aren’t committing rape on themselves.

That’s why it’s a sad indictment of men that there are men in what we like to believe is a civilised society who engage in this sort of behaviour when the opportunity presents itself, or who engineer the opportunity for themselves, as this man did:

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/national-news/1556047/man-who-raped-and-assaulted-his-wife-for-25-years-of-hell-handed-life-sentence.html

It doesn’t have to be as extreme as the case in the opening post, and it shouldn’t take such an extreme case to have men examine their consciences and ask themselves can they do more. That’s why I don’t have any insights for the OP into the minds of men who commit rape of women and girls, and also why I can understand the OP would be asking the question of men as to what can be done, or what more can be done.

It’s why I can’t offer any practical advice, and I can only offer support, and do more to continue to campaign for changes which I believe are necessary in Irish legislation in order to ensure that 0.000001% figure being bandied about in the thread is reduced to 0%, because I’m not willing to just accept that there are bad people in the world, and that’s a sad reality - pointing out the obvious yet again, achieves nothing, and does nothing to change anything about that reality.

France had the opportunity to adopt EU-wide legislation regarding rape in its national laws, they and other countries refused to do so:

In its initial draft, presented on March 8, 2022, the European Commission proposed that the "crime of rape" rely on the condition that the victim had "not consented to the sexual act." Surprisingly, France was one of the member states (along with Germany, the Netherlands and Hungary) opposed to a Europe-wide definition of rape based on the notion of consent, which led the European Union (EU) to eventually give up on the idea.

https://archive.ph/ihGNV

I can’t do anything to change laws in France, but the least I can do is attempt to have laws in Ireland changed, and in significantly less time than the 30 years it took to change Irish law to what it is now. I dunno ‘bout you, but I was sick long ago of seeing -

Pitiful sentencing:

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation/26593097.html

Suspended sentencing:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/teen-avoids-jail-for-rape-despite-court-finding-suspended-sentence-was-too-lenient-1561815.html

And thousands, literally thousands of rape complaints recorded annually, in Ireland:

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/nine-out-of-ten-recorded-rapes-in-ireland-end-nothing/?amp

So L. Christian turns out to be Christian LESCOLE, and the firestation where he is deputy head is Valréas, which also in Vaucluse, 55km from Mazan (Vaucluse). About 45 minutes' drive according to Google Maps.

So, like I've been saying, they were not exactly local as you've been alleging:

Twenty minutes to get there?? It takes about 10 hours to drive from the north to the south of France. 20 minutes is local. And that's just a random guy being interviewed. He wasn't chosen because his former friend was different from the others. He's typical of the 50 accused. That's the point.

So yes, they were recruited locally. 

You've been making overbearing claims that they were all etc. local that's what people have been calling you up on, I'm glad we could finally clear it up. Exactly how far away they were became central to your thesis: that good men everywhere were harboring 70 rapists at a time in damn near every "average town," among us because of and protected by bro culture etc., so you can't exactly be this upset that the claim was challenged on its validity, especially when knowing that these men all got networked together on the world wide web, not by some inherently local means (or as you entertained much earlier, an advert in the "local rag" might have nearly been got etc.). Even with just the 2 men you've specifically plucked out of the lineup, we've vastly broadened the parameters of the claim outside of Avignon and into the wider region. Of just the ones we've discussed so far I'd like to know if you know where the truck driver(s) or the soldier(s) were located from and we can see how much less local it is from the claims you've been egging on. I'm not confident you'll freely admit if you happen to learn of one living in a far flung provence or even abroad from France, it would jeopardize your thesis.

It doesn’t have to be as extreme as the case in the opening post, and it shouldn’t take such an extreme case to have men examine their consciences and ask themselves can they do more.

I don't know what you imagine that is unfortunately. Almost nobody on the planet was in a position to know about, or indeed stop these men from communicating on their seedy little forum or whatever means of communication they escalated their discussions to, such as Skype as the reporting mentions (bringing up another can of worms about internet privacy, eg. does the EU tear down digital privacy rights of 450 million people on the offchance costly mass surveillance catches hundreds or thousands of crimes).

Men aren't having discussions about premeditating rape in person in the extent of my experience either. I don't know that say, any of Brock "Allen" Turner's friends knew what he was going to do. Nor do I buy the notion that it's an indictment on the entire population of the sex that Donald Trump chose to rape E Jean Carroll. And on, and on, and on. Though, like the EU case you bring up of legislation, it's at least noteworthy that NY's definition of rape is so frankly archaic, but I wish not to digress into his specific case, it's been discussed extensively. What I gleaned from the article you linked the nonconsent law was debated against over practical matters about investigation and enforcement?

Criminal justice reform for Ireland bottom up, middle out, top and down, is a long time coming and seemingly still a long way off, not like it hasn't been discussed to death on the forums, but I absolutely agree the state of criminal justice in Ireland sounds paltry, and judges setting precedent of extreme leniency; that's going to take a monumental re-legislation of the Irish criminal statute to fix, new sentencing laws etc. which throws out the jurisprudence of leniency and forces the setup of a new standard for punishments. The money will have to come from somewhere, and the commitment, to greatly expand imprisonment however, a whole other can of worms. Nevermind the political will and the political mandate, millions of Irish voters who not only demand that from their legislators but follow through holding them to it.

I don't think the police in the UK are particularly misogynistic

Similar to here

I fail to see the logic of expecting consultants to make a leap like that

The drugging and sleeping with, if it was going on people would get caught

One case ever maybe means it's rare

Does he live there? 40 mins is fairly local, you really are clutching at straws as usual

No one said they were all local just most

damn it, you got in before my ninja edit

there was never an argument that none of the men were local the New York Times, even explicitly calls out one of the men as being a local journalist, so I don’t know what you’re trying to Gotcha in this post

There was never an argument that everyone was local either just most

So you have no argument

Your gotcha was lame

The difficulty in pulling this off is massive

Ita very rare as in Shipman was rare

Yourself and overhead should go on a date, well suited