Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

I think this shows you have no understanding of the issue. The test results from the two labs show that Khelif and Lin both have XY chromosomes and functioning testicles. That indicates that they probably (not certain inthe absence of more detailed medical info) suffer from the same DSD as Caster Semenya. Yes that's speculation, but it's a plausible hypothesis - and compared to your laughable nonsense about a single Russian boxer getting other boxers' test results fabricated so she could keep her "undefeated" record it's barely speculation at all.

What was that you were saying about me being here for the propaganda??

You're trying very hard Volchitsa

Here's the fight that triggered the IBA to ban her because their pin-up had been beaten

Nope. It's the question I see from lads who usually don't know much and think they've done a gotcha when they ask such a dumb question.

You could do better by looking into Umar Kremlev, his position in Putin's close circle and Russia's ongoing proxy war against the western world, being waged on my many fronts but mostly online. Sport has always been seen as a battle front by Russian leaders. That's why Russian athletes have been pickled in drugs for decades all the way back to the Soviet Union days.

Russia is banned from most sport and is trying to own boxing

Their blond darling Azalia had her arse handed to her and unbeaten record wrecked. You can see the video in another post. The IBA have now restored the unbeaten run but they had to discredit Khelif to do it based on "trust me bro" tests which nobody has seen.

I have no interest in culture wars but Russia has and that's what they're at with this one. Rowling etc got suckered. Hilarious.

Women's sport is women's sport and should remain so. If you had bothered to read the thread, you'd have seen me say that so i'll assume you're answering in bad faith

AH. Throw in someone else to distract from the fact that you have been defending the IBA position on this since the start yet which is odd, since you don't pay much attention to contact sports. Why would you default to defending the IBA, a Russian operation?

IBA/Russia got it's ass handed to it again last week

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1144506/court-arbitration-iba-exclusion-rejects

You base everything on alleged tests. SHow me these tests., You can't. You don;t even know what they were. Nobody does other than the IBA. No results have been released or verified

This is the reality of this story

https://www.sportspolitika.news/p/imane-khelif-iba-russia-boxing-putin-olympics

You're just not getting it.

• I fully agree the IBA is corrupt
• I fully agree that Russian sport is corrupt.
• Khelif was eligible to compete in the Olympics under the IOC's rules.

However, the IOC's rules were a steaming pile of horse manure. That is the more fundamental issue here. And the reason for that is that Female sports need to have very well-defined eligibility rules to decide who is eligible to compete in the female sex category. For these rules to work there needs to be a means of verifying eligibility.

Do you accept the need for a process/test to who is eligible to compete in female sports? Do you accept that there are scientific tests which can be used as part of this process if necessary?

Do you accept the need for eligibility rules or not? Do you accept that rules need to be enforceable?

LOL this doesn't answer the question at all.

I don't like contact sports at all. I do care about male violence against women.

Old fashioned of me, I know, but there you go. I'm just not keen on men punching women in the face, and still less so when it's a spectator sport.

… and how would the governing body figure out who that is? By subjecting all competitors to mandatory (and invasive) genital and genetic examinations.

Your question was a complete strawman. I made no reference to looks whatsoever.

Where testing is undertaken my preference would be that all athletes are tested (In the case of the Olympics that would be a return to testing all athletes competing in female categories, which was removed despite an overwhelming majority of females preferring that the testing should be retained). Nothing to do with looks whatsoever. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you accept the need for eligibility rules or not? Do you accept that rules need to be enforceable?

What’s more invasive - a swab test from the mouth to determine someone’s sex or someone watching you pee into a cup to determine if you’ve taken banned substances?

Maybe it's just because so much of what you claim very often doesn't stand up to 30 seconds' reflection?

Cheek swabs are fine to identify the vast majority of female athletes. 30 seconds, and cheap as well. Once and it's done for life.

And here's the thing: there's evidence from the numbers that recruiters especially in poorer countries with low levels of healthcare such as rural areas of Africa and Asia to recruit XY sufferers of DSDs in order to put them in women's teams. Just as the GDR had a deliberate strategy of pumping their female athletes with testosterone, so poorer countries can do the same now with no need for all the technical apsects of drug cheating.

But the minute they bring back sex screening with cheek swabs, that will stop.

So the numbers of male DSD athletes in female sports will drop radically.

So the numbers needing further tests like ultrasound scans will also drop. The sex screen will be sufficient for all but the very tiny minority who have not previously been diagnosed as DSD.

Maybe it's just because so much of what you claim very often doesn't stand up to 30 seconds' reflection?

You could just rebut the arguments then without the personal abuse. Thanks in advance.

This still won't address XX males in womens sport.

Countries going out of their way to recruit athletes for perceived testosterone advantages, esp. if they wouldn't have otherwise competed, is very unsavory.

There are far greater implications of the former than the latter, which is why it wouldn’t matter if every single athlete wished to maintain sex testing - they’re all assuming a foregone conclusion that the results would be what they expect. It’s when the results are not what they expect is where the issues lie. And that’s without pointing out the blatant discrimination in that the test was not typically conducted on athletes competing in the men’s events - nobody wants to open that can of worms 😂

That's rich coming from you.

As for XX athletes, I'm not aware of any that have male advantage - can you tell me which DSDs those are and how the athletes concerned would have male advantage?

Do you have any names of such athletes in real life?

No I'm not going looking because I've seen how little you're interested in data when it doesn't suit you. It's not particularly important, unless you have some evidence that female athletes wanted to get rid of sex screening. Which I know you don't.

And before that, you have neither yet admitted that you were flat-out wrong to say that all athletes would need genital examination, nor provided any evidence or explanation about your latest claims about XX athletes, so let's start with those first?

I mean that's fine as long as we're saying there'd be no problem with an XX male identifying as a woman and competition in women's sports, that shows it's really not about appearance for the folks arguing about this so forcefully in the thread for so long, given an XX male has a male phenotype, a penis, etc. if that's not going to be a problem for the fairness in sport crowd I think sure that's great.

No I don't have notable examples, was only just highlighting that the proposed method for screening males would miss some people who are in fact male and those males would be allowed to compete under that rule.

I don't know if there is a study out there of comparative non-sexual organ characteristics for XX males that would settle that question. They could have otherwise normal lung and heart capacity and muscle mass, couldn't tell you otherwise.

I think you're missing the point that she is referring to screening test. A screening test does not need to be final. Anyone who does not pass a simple basic screening test could/should have the right to more comprehensive testing. A competent governing body should be able to have processes to deal with this.

Ah yeah, when you're proven wrong resort to weak attempts at personal insults. That's shown us all the depth of your argument for sure.

It's pretty simple: if they don't have functioning testes producing male levels of testosterone, and androgen-sensitivity to respond to that testosterone, then unless they are getting artificial testosterone, they will have a female "sized" body in terms of heart, lung, muscles, bone weight etc, whether or not they have visibly male genitals.

Yes exactly. The cheek swab is just a screening test. Only if there are ambiguous results (or a clear fail) would any further tests be required.

(The XX athletes is a complete swing and a miss. XX athletes with DSDs don't have an inherent physical advantage over women.)

No it would basically be the same problem albeit with a male and thus being part of the gender debate were it to happen.

I absolutely agree that if there are gaps in the rules then it's likely that someone somewhere will more than likely try to exploit those gaps. So the rules absolutely need to be written as tightly and comprehensively as possible.

Taking testosterone without a TUE is already banned, as testosterone is a PED, so that is already illegal. Catching someone cheating this way is the problem (Hence the need for the far more intrusive process of drug testing).

Unfortunately getting all your PED cheating done (and the associated training) before coming to the attention of Anti-doping authorities (through competitive performances) in the way you suggest would be more than likely be a viable successful strategy. As such, it probably happens already.

And that’s without pointing out the blatant discrimination in that the test was not typically conducted on athletes competing in the men’s events - nobody wants to open that can of worms 😂

I have very easily proven that assertion of yours to be wrong. You seem to be unable to deal with that without resorting to weak attempts at personal insults.