Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

No I don't have notable examples, was only just highlighting that the proposed method for screening males would miss some people who are in fact male and those males would be allowed to compete under that rule.

I don't know if there is a study out there of comparative non-sexual organ characteristics for XX males that would settle that question. They could have otherwise normal lung and heart capacity and muscle mass, couldn't tell you otherwise.

I think you're missing the point that she is referring to screening test. A screening test does not need to be final. Anyone who does not pass a simple basic screening test could/should have the right to more comprehensive testing. A competent governing body should be able to have processes to deal with this.

Ah yeah, when you're proven wrong resort to weak attempts at personal insults. That's shown us all the depth of your argument for sure.

It's pretty simple: if they don't have functioning testes producing male levels of testosterone, and androgen-sensitivity to respond to that testosterone, then unless they are getting artificial testosterone, they will have a female "sized" body in terms of heart, lung, muscles, bone weight etc, whether or not they have visibly male genitals.

Yes exactly. The cheek swab is just a screening test. Only if there are ambiguous results (or a clear fail) would any further tests be required.

(The XX athletes is a complete swing and a miss. XX athletes with DSDs don't have an inherent physical advantage over women.)

No it would basically be the same problem albeit with a male and thus being part of the gender debate were it to happen.

I absolutely agree that if there are gaps in the rules then it's likely that someone somewhere will more than likely try to exploit those gaps. So the rules absolutely need to be written as tightly and comprehensively as possible.

Taking testosterone without a TUE is already banned, as testosterone is a PED, so that is already illegal. Catching someone cheating this way is the problem (Hence the need for the far more intrusive process of drug testing).

Unfortunately getting all your PED cheating done (and the associated training) before coming to the attention of Anti-doping authorities (through competitive performances) in the way you suggest would be more than likely be a viable successful strategy. As such, it probably happens already.

And that’s without pointing out the blatant discrimination in that the test was not typically conducted on athletes competing in the men’s events - nobody wants to open that can of worms 😂

I have very easily proven that assertion of yours to be wrong. You seem to be unable to deal with that without resorting to weak attempts at personal insults.

"Men undergoing sex testing" - no this is a misunderstanding of why sex screening is needed for the female category. Performances are on average significantly lower than in the male category.

If a woman wanted to participate in the male category and qualified to do so, that wouldn't put the males at an immediate disadvantage.

That's why trans men like Quin rarely attempt to move into the male category when they transition, but prefer to stay in the female one. Because they mostly wouldn't even qualify for the equivalent male category. There are a few examples of trans men wanting to join the male category but it's very much the exception.

The easiest solution would be to declare the male categories to be "open" as is often the case in chess. That way only the female category would need this sort of protection which is usually unnecessary in the male category anyway.

It’s not a misunderstanding, I know how the arguments go to justify the necessity of sex testing as it applies in the women’s category. Those arguments have never justified sex testing, or the various methods which were used, from naked parades, to the Barr body test to the most recent attempts to use hormone testing for the purposes of eligibility in women’s sports.

You’d think it wouldn’t immediately put men at a disadvantage if women were to compete in the men’s category, but that’s not the way men generally feel about it. They’d be just as put out by the idea as women are of men competing in the women’s category. They’d be just as likely to be like “Aw hell no!”, as is the experience of many girls who want to compete in sports with boys - the boys don’t be long making sure girls know they’re not welcome in their sports. Same is more or less true of men when it comes to women who wish to compete in their sports. Men generally see having to accommodate women as putting them at an immediate disadvantage.

Athletes like Quin rarely attempt to participate in sports of any description in the first place, but when they do and they’re accepted in the sport, that’s the reason why they’re not generally willing to consider moving to playing the same sport with men. Athletes like Danny Baker struggle to get a licence in the UK to compete in boxing against men - it’s very much individual circumstances, eg the type of person they are, the sport they compete in, in the country they compete in, and that’s only going from grassroots to national level, never mind international level. Same goes for athletes like Lia Thomas - competing at college level, in one of the most prestigious schools in the US (UPenn) Schuyler Bailar - same, prestigious school (Harvard), swam on the men’s team.

They’re exceptional only because transgender athletes are rare as feckin’ hens teeth in the first place. It feels like there’s more of them due to the fact that they engender significantly more coverage online and in the media than women’s sports has ever achieved. Women’s sports gets about 4% coverage, transgender athletes get significantly more coverage than that even though they only make up about 2% of athletes involved in sports - some countries have higher participation rates than others, some countries are about to have a whole lot less.

There are so many variables involved in progression through the rankings in sports at an individual level, that all this talk of men even getting within an asses roar of top tier elite women’s sports is just fanciful nonsense, frankly, let alone the idea that any man would figure it was worth his while to even attempt to participate in women’s sports - the rewards too, are significantly lower, and women have had to fight tooth and nail for equality with men in terms of renumeration and proper contracts, whether it’s for sponsorship or employment. Men do too, but not anything like women have to fight for everything, no better exemplified by the discrepancy between men and women in the GAA and the LGFA, or the far more famous viral social media post that put to bed any talk of women being at a disadvantage because of biology (it epitomised the discrepancy before biology is ever a factor):

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/979395795/mens-and-womens-ncaa-march-madness-facilities-separate-and-unequal-spark-uproar

Chess isn’t a great example as it’s still very much a sport (for the life of me as much as I’m tempted, I’m not going to quibble as I know you’re only using it as an example of an Open category) dominated by men, even given the increase in popularity after Netflix’ The Queens Gambit and the success of online participation, which have elevated the sport, though no significant increase in popularity among women, also not helped by that goof from Ilya Smirin:

https://www.chess.com/news/view/chess-commentator-sacked-sexist-remarks-ilya-smirin

There’s just no protection of women necessary - everyone play by the rules and respect their competition and there won’t be any issues. It just so happens as I’m sure you’re painfully aware - that a lot of men just can’t seem to do that around women, especially when they perceive the idea that women are impeding on their sports by their mere presence alone. If it’s a question of women’s safety, cos let’s face it the reports from sports are dismal, then you’re not doing anything to protect women from men who would seek to abuse them - those men have always been able to have access to women in what they feel are actually their spaces - from coaches to teachers to trainers to physios (not too many of those opportunities in women’s sports admittedly, far more physios in men’s sports, by sheer numbers alone) to managers, including the Handy André Spanish Manager and Coach who only came to worldwide attention for the way he reacted during the Women’s World Cup:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/25/spain-womens-football-team-will-refuse-to-play-until-rubiales-quits

I understand the sort of protection you’re referring to, but it’s simply a fact that said protection doesn’t exist for most women competing in any sport in the first place, and that’s even before theorising outcomes in combat sports - I think boxing or any kind of sports where there is evidence of long-term damage to athletes health should be discouraged. I say discouraged, because I’m fully aware that it’s not going to stop in countries where there is a demand for the sport, even outside of being even more tightly regulated and restricted. However because I understand that there’s more to sports than just belting down a track in a pair of tiny whiteys, or being celebrated on an open-top bus driving down O’ Connell Street, the goal should be less discrimination, not more… except for weirdos like this:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/why-most-of-chess-players-have-foot-fetish

I mean for people like this:

Even thinking about Elliot Page makes me feel sad. The pain in those eyes.

Ellen Page was subjected to multiple sex assaults from a young age. It's no wonder she decided that being a man in that world had to be easier. I just hope it works out. From what I see of Eliott though, I'm not sure how well that's going.

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Warned: Notice. Unless you know and can provide proof that this is the reason for this person transitioning this post is a mix of sexist and transphobic. If you have proof of the above then I will remove this notice.

Sorry man but you're not getting what I'm saying

Read what I've said.

There are two issues here. Trans involved in women's sport and Russian propaganda.

I'm only dealing with Russian propaganda which this most certainly is. Perfect opportunity to stoke culture wars, restore the record of Kremlev's pin-up girl and have a pop at the IOC which Kremlev is at war with. CAS threw out the IBA appeal over olympic exclusion last week

Of course there should be a testing regime where there is a dispute or a doubt

Of course someone who is a man should not be fighting a woman in the ring

You keep wheeling out questions like this as a gotcha. Desperately weak way of discussing something, trying to suggest stupidity where there is none.

The IBA "tests" are unverified. Until they are confirmed or properly debunked, Khelif is a woman.

All else here is speculation and opinion or in Volchitsa's case, propaganda.

I see you've stopped filling vast acreage of white space with your facts and figures, none of which have any standing until the IBA publish their tests, the criteria used and the results.

Everything you've said is based on those results which you don't know anything about other than what you're read on Kremlev's website. And you enthusiastically embrace the IBA position despite them using the "trust me bro" defence. Hilarious

I like facts and figures and until I see something definitive on Khelif, there is nothing more to say about it.

Yet you have a lot to say - endless long reams of facts and figures, all deriving from a personal friend of Putin and Azalia Amineva, who happens to run the IBA

Get off the stage Vlad

It is a bit condescending to presume her reason for becoming a man is because of a sexual assault. It is just a very strange statement to make.

If you made the same statement about a gay person, it would come across as very homophobic.