Very interesting times ahead for Germany

We see ethnic groups abandoning certain areas as they become more diverse, in favour of living in areas of less diversity.

Examples that support this statement please.

The growth of cities versus the decline of rural occupancy over the last 100 years completely counters your point.

And the Prison argument is a completely irrelevant given the continued presence of risk/danger that exists within it. In such climates yes, people do seek out their own, but that is not reflective of how societies act. It's actually pretty revealing that you had to use such a tense environment to find examples of ethnic groups sticking rigidly with each other.

Remember when you were a child, I'm sure your early friends were identified first by living in the same street, or townland, or village etc as you. And you viewed others as outsiders, then when you went to secondary you no longer identified by street/village but maybe parish/region. When you went to University, you identified at first by your home county or town maybe, and now when you go abroad you identify by country. My point here is that until you (or me, or most people) experienced people from different communities, you naturally identified with those close to you but as you grew and experienced more interaction (and saw that it was safe) the need to stick close to your original boundaries was not felt as necessary.

My point with this is we are wired to see danger first and to not put ourselves at risk, but as a species we have consistently shown that as soon as we see that the danger does not exist, or is of an acceptable level, we look to go further.

Some people will leave

My point, in direct contradiction of yours is that the more people interact with those unlike them, the more they gravitate to those who are like them.

You dismiss the example of prisons but the point stands. In times of fear and danger, people gravitate towards those they identify with.

Not only is it a real phenomenon it is also a growing phenomenon.

People gravitate to those who are like them in times of fear and danger. Such as prison environments That was literally my point. They do not do so at anything like the same rate when there is not fear and danger. Of course they will still likely spend more time with people who they have cultural and historic ties with for various reasons but that is not the same as saying they seek out their own 'because' of having interacted with others.

And as for Irish or Italian neighborhoods, these have existed as largely a prominent identifiable culture rather than being exclusively of that group of people. And its explainable. When any of us go somewhere new, we look to settle and find our feet, and if you have someone who can give you a bed, or a start, or whatever, naturally you're going to go towards a friend of a friend or a relative and so end up within such a community which is going to lead to that community growing.

And as for the White flight concept, I think that its a bit disingenuous to suggest that this was an outcome specifically because of an inability for people of different ethnic groups to engage with each other rather than as a consequence of class differential that would have existed within such communities to a large degree. Not to mention that again, instances of White flight are largely coupled with an environment of particular social unrest or conflict such as was the case in the US and also in other places. And for every instance of White flight that can be documented, I would guess there are at least ten instances of communities that saw an increase in integration over a similar timeframe. Not to mention the growth in interracial relationships and marriages.

So, as we both agree, fear and danger is a significant driving factor in leading to people of different ethnic backgrounds seeking to withdraw, and this is where the rhetoric of the likes of Nigel Farage, Tommy Robinson, Donald Trump and the pound shop knock off imitations in Ireland specifically seeks to make people think fear is an appropriate response. These people are not responding to fear, they are stoking it so that they can encourage division and non-integration so that they can then claim multiculturalism etc is a problem.

And as for the White flight concept, I think that its a bit disingenuous to suggest that this was an outcome specifically because of an inability for people of different ethnic groups to engage with each other rather than as a consequence of class differential that would have existed within such communities to a large degree.




You think it’s disingenuous to suggest that white flight is driven by people of different ethnicities not wanting to live together and not those of different classes not wishing to live together despite research clearly showing this to be the case.

Can I ask if you have examples of where it has worked as successfully as you claim.

You also alluded earlier to conflict before we get to this perfect stage. What type of conflict do you envision. And for how long.

There are many many examples of people of the same ethnic background concentrating into the same areas when they migrate to a different country. I don't understand why you think this is an aberration rather than the norm.

I ask these questions because what is happening now is a massive experiment in demographics and the results of it so far around Europe do not play out what you are suggesting will happen. If we are to run this experiment through to the end, then it would be nice to see that the supposed end result is based on data, and not belief or faith.

If there is data to show, please provide it, or point to the direction to look in.

Huge amount of choice? Either FF/FG, the lunatics on the left or Aontu. Not really much of a choice.

If you think MLMD, Holly Cairns or Paul Murphy would run the country any better you are seriously deluded.

You did say the Irish have a "huge amount of choice". We don't, really.

we actually do with our PRSTV system, where you pick from a large lot of people/parties you don’t like, choosing the least terrible options in a proportional manner

Compared to US or UK where the choice is between exactly two terrible parties and impossible for independents or small parties like Greens to get a foothold and representation

On flip side it allows likes of these neo Nazis in Germany to get a foot in, I believe they also have a form of proportional representation

I have no idea where this world view comes from, but history shows very clearly that multicultural states can only be held together by totalitarian strongmen. Otherwise, the usual result is war or one group ultimately dominating the others.

Joseph Stalin drew the borders of the former Soviet Union in such a way that the Republics could never function as independent states due to a lack of the cohesion that a single-culture state brings. And he was successful - Azerbaijan/Armenia, really weird borders in the Central Asian "-stan" countries. The British and the French did the same with the Sykes-Picot agreement carving up the Levant into two fundamental misconstructions, the artificial states of "Iraq" and "Syria" that were designed again to ensure they could not function normally: since then they've only been held together by strongmen like the Assads, Saddam Hussein etc.

Yugoslavia, Myanmar/Burma, Northern Ireland, Cyprus, South Africa (where they barely even have electricity) are all further examples.

The kind of things being pushed in the West today are the kind of things that are usually imposed upon peoples by force by their enemies.

Well we had a protracted Ethnic war in Europe less than 30 years ago.

6 of those countries are currently seeing rising tensions between ethnic groups and/or a rise in far right political influence with immigration as a primary reason.

The other had its original culture and people essentially destroyed by immigration.

in fairness if there is any country that ought to be neutered by multiculturalism and replacement its Britain, they never really got past their fondness for empire unlike the Germans

Is it not just as easy to say here that it is the West who (right up to today) has performed military invasions of Muslim countries, aerially bombed or facilitated the bombing and wholesale destruction of Muslim cities, sought to destabilise regimes in Muslim countries, and continuously exploited volatility in certain Muslim countries to push Western interests ?

I love how we have these conversations about the dangers posed by Muslims to us when any quick glance at any statistic about who kills more of the other (including children) and who is the bigger aggressor towards the other would very clearly demonstrate that Muslims have far more to fear from the "Christian" West than the other way around — and it's not even close. Not to mention the fact that the West is a participant in some of the factors — including war, destruction and political destabilisation — that actually leads to Muslim migration and refugees.

One of the other problems with the narrative on Muslims is that it disproportionately focuses on less common things. There is no focus on the fact that the majority of Muslim migrants are simply law-abiding people seeking quiet enjoyment of life and who go about their day-to-day life causing no more problems for society than any other person.

Germany now wants to import a quarter of a million Kenyans