BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 12:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

We need to do them all.

I agree with you it's just frustrating when 2- 2.5 Bl for MN or DU causes politicians to loose their minds but half that amount on the bus network which is all short to medium term spending gets the auld 'awe sure that's grand'

devnull · 29-05-2017 12:42pm

dfx- wrote: »

So really that's the document that matters and not this one. This one is just more of the same old petty politics stuff that has been discussed to an end here. There is absolutely no reason to put the sort of effort they have done into stamping a new logo and different colour onto buses.

All of this stuff is important to providing a coherent public transport system which Dublin Bus lacks right now and is far behind most European capital cities and most large European cities which are not capitals, right now the whole thing is a disjointed mess which simply serves customers very poorly in comparison to cities like the ones I speak about in this paragraph.

At the end of the day removing lots of different companies bus stops and merging them together and having one panel of information containing all operators info managed by a central authority is a far better solution to the mess we have on our streets now which does nobody any good, it reduces pavement room for pedestrians and does not serve bus users properly.

Transport in Dublin feels like so many people doing their own thing with no regard for the bigger picture, Dublin is absolutely awful in that regard, everyone looks after themselves and couldn't care less about the bigger system, as long as they are getting the best for themselves. That we are told, is one of the arguments about privatisation as it leads to fragmentation and lack of joined up thinking, but we have the very same problem here with public services.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 12:44pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I agree with you it's just frustrating when 2- 2.5 Bl for MN or DU causes politicians to loose their minds but half that amount on the bus network which is all short to medium term spending gets the auld 'awe sure that's grand'

I agree with you too! I would share your frustrations.

The pressure needs to be kept on the politicians to deliver the rail based solutions and at the same time to deliver this project in full.

devnull · 29-05-2017 12:54pm

Can we try and keep things related here to upcoming changes to Bus Services in the Dublin Area.

This is absolutely not the place to discuss the history of trade unions and 1916.

Moderator

dfx- · 29-05-2017 12:57pm

devnull wrote: »

All of this stuff is important to providing a coherent public transport system which Dublin Bus lacks right now and is far behind most European capital cities and most large European cities which are not capitals, right now the whole thing is a disjointed mess which simply serves customers very poorly in comparison to cities like the ones I speak about in this paragraph.

At the end of the day removing lots of different companies bus stops and merging them together and having one panel of information containing all operators info managed by a central authority is a far better solution to the mess we have on our streets now which does nobody any good, it reduces pavement room for pedestrians and does not serve bus users properly.

Transport in Dublin feels like so many people doing their own thing with no regard for the bigger picture, Dublin is absolutely awful in that regard, everyone looks after themselves and couldn't care less about the bigger system, as long as they are getting the best for themselves. That we are told, is one of the arguments about privatisation as it leads to fragmentation and lack of joined up thinking, but we have the very same problem here with public services.

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

devnull · 29-05-2017 1:04pm

dfx- wrote: »

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

I agree that the routes need to be sorted out and re-designed, but that is what the network review is going to be used for. It's going to be carried out by external experts who have been involved in such exercises across Europe as well as the Americas, which I'm hopeful will work out better than Network Direct, having some external eyes on things in my view will help with this since they have less pre-conceptions and start with a blank canvass.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It is important, but at the same time modal share of public transport is poor in Dublin compared to a lot of other European cities, that is because the system is unfriendly, not very well integrated and very confusing for people to use, for current passengers of course more reliable services are the number one, but if we want to get cars off the road we need to make the system more friendly.

I have been in about 10 capital cities in the last 2 or 3 years and honestly Dublin is by far the worst for the transport system. Every one of the others has has a proper system where everything wears the same colors, the same tickets, with information in the same format, for all operators. It's so easy to use.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

So you believe in a fragmented system? Because that is essentially what we have right now and the unions are at pains to point out that fragmentation is bad and that is why the UK's system is so poor.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 1:12pm

At the end of the day the NTA should just be there to regulate, not interfere, leave it to the operators.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 1:12pm

dfx- wrote: »

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

To be fair all of the elements to this are important, some less than others, but they all add up to delivering a better service.

Until the city centre stops being a massive building site and consistent journey times start returning then delivering better cross-city services is going to be tricky.

The current plans for the city centre post-LUAS BXD do not help in that regard, and need to be revised again to deliver direct routings with priority.

The Jarrett Walker led Network Review is the key driver for change, but all of the other elements are important.

More on-street priority delivers faster journey times, which means you can deliver more journeys throughout the day with the same resources, as indeed does reform of the fare system which would reduce dwell times.

With route tendering happening, branding is important and the operators need to become secondary to that.

But for me, the most important thing is that sufficient funding is made available to deliver this - capital funding for more buses, new ticketing equipment, and for road improvements, and additional current funding to facilitate overhaul of the fare structure.

That's been the get-out-of-jail card for too long - lack of government funds has stymied the expansion of the service.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 1:13pm

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 1:19pm

This theory that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have stopped the service improving is laughable, the problem has been underfunding and too much red type by the government, NTA and DOT who are putting privates before the public companies that each of us own, the companies want to improve transport but cannot do so when they are funded in the bargain basement.

devnull · 29-05-2017 1:22pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

This theory that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have stopped the service improving is laughable, the problem has been underfunding and too much red type by the government, NTA and DOT who are putting privates before the public companies that each of us own, the companies want to improve transport but cannot do so when they are funded in the bargain basement.

Last year when TFI issued new maps, I read a BE staff member saying they will never "bow down" to Transport for Ireland literature because that literature includes private operaors and BE staff will not tolerate the 307/308 being included on a TFI map and therefore won't use it and if it is the company will most likely simply produce their own map minus the private operators.

This is typical of the issues that exist, including the 307/308 on the map would be of benefit to public transport as a whole, however people involved in the company object to usin it because it's not in their own interests. It's a simple failure of public companies to do what they were set-up for, which was to avoid this kind of thing.

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 1:24pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Explain how? Privates will be required to deliver a defined service and a defined time with a defined fleet . Just as BÉ and DB are required.

How will standards drop?

Spanish Eyes · 29-05-2017 1:26pm

Who benefits from all this bickering and stalling.

Well it's not the bus users for sure.

Any messing around will not be tolerated or supported by bus users. The days of Unions running things for their members only are long gone now.

There might be a painful lead in period, but it will happen. Always sorted in the end.

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 1:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But for me, the most important thing is that sufficient funding is made available to deliver this - capital funding for more buses, new ticketing equipment, and for road improvements, and additional current funding to facilitate overhaul of the fare structure.

That's been the get-out-of-jail card for too long - lack of government funds has stymied the expansion of the service.

Well, the issue is really that the unit costs are too high. This is what really has to be dealt with. Otherwise, high frequency services and all-night services will never be viable, even if the funding were significantly increased (and 10 percent would be a 'significant' increase in government terms).

The funding and fares already quite high for the level of services that are actually being delivered. Demanding more money and then complaining when there hasn't been enough given can't be used to 'get out of jail' over and over again.

There are plenty ways to address the cost model at every level. But this has to be dealt with. The cost savings are the basic 'raw material' that you can use to extend and develop the service.

pjohnson · 29-05-2017 1:37pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

Why are BE/the drivers so scared of tendering? If they provide the best service they would earn the tender fair and square.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 1:37pm

Anton - the service is underfunded, the simple fact is this, I note your cherry picked figures included DSP travel pass contribution, that cannot count and in addition BE runs many many rural routes that won't exist in other countries.

Bray Head · 29-05-2017 1:48pm

The map suggests that one of the BRT corridors will go from Terenure through Harold's Cross.

A label is misplaced however, implying that it will go through Rathmines.

devnull · 29-05-2017 1:49pm

Smithers19 Banned for off-topic posting, thread derailing and trolling.

Moderator

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 1:52pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Anton - the service is underfunded, the simple fact is this, I note your cherry picked figures included DSP travel pass contribution, that cannot count and in addition BE runs many many rural routes that won't exist in other countries.

This is untrue on many scores.

Firstly, the figures I have provided are not cherry picked.

Secondly, they do not include the DSP travel pass contribution (which is included as part of the 'operating turnover' for the business). The DSP travel pass contribution as you call it is not itemised in the annual report. The state funding I am referring to are the capital grant, the PSO contract payment, and the 'revenue grant'. These clearly do not have anything to do with the DSP travel pass contribution.

Thirdly, many other countries do in fact have rural bus services. They are not a uniquely Irish phenomenon.

I am still waiting for you to provide your list. You did say that the subsidy was low by international standards.

wordofwarning · 29-05-2017 1:59pm

devnull wrote: »

It is important, but at the same time modal share of public transport is poor in Dublin compared to a lot of other European cities, that is because the system is unfriendly, not very well integrated and very confusing for people to use, for current passengers of course more reliable services are the number one, but if we want to get cars off the road we need to make the system more friendly.

IMO it does not make a difference if everything is integrated, if the congestion stays the same. I have been to German, countries in Asia etc where the traffic is the same everyday. Rush hour means nothing, as taking a bus at 8am takes the same time as 11pm. So if you are on a bus, you know you can get off one and onto another seamlessly. It is amazing being on a bus, where you can look at a screen and see at the next stop you get another bus, which will arrive in 3 mins. When you get off the bus, it is there in 3 mins

There is limited utility having an integrated bus network, if your journey one day takes 20 mins and 50 mins the next.

Stephen15 · 29-05-2017 2:05pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

No they if they do then The NTA will cancel their contracts and have contigency plan put in place this is how it works in many with far better pt than such as London, Berlin, Copenhagen and Warsaw.

Well in this country privates are the premium service. On the intercity Look at Aircoach, GoBus, Dublin Coach, Citylink etc. compared to BE. Even look at the Swords Express compared to DB service of the few examples where DB faces competition.

Private operators haven't run down the public companies. There have a number of improvements in the last thirty years such the introduction of leap cards, introduction of rtpi, increase in bus lanes, the building of the luas and extensions to the Dart. All brainchilds of the NTA and DoT not CIE. You obivously want to go backwards not forwards.

devnull · 29-05-2017 2:06pm

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO it does not make a difference if everything is integrated, if the congestion stays the same. I have been to German, countries in Asia etc where the traffic is the same everyday. Rush hour means nothing, as taking a bus at 8am takes the same time as 11pm. So if you are on a bus, you know you can get off one and onto another seamlessly. It is amazing being on a bus, where you can look at a screen and see at the next stop you get another bus, which will arrive in 3 mins. When you get off the bus, it is there in 3 mins.

Integration doesn't just mean bus services, it means ticketing, information systems, journey planning, fares, everything being joined up rather than fragmented into different companies all whom are doing the same thing different ways when in-fact it would be much better if everyone was working in the same direction, which is the whole reason TFI was setup in the first place and the whole reason that TFL for example is so successfully.

Of course you need to tackle congestion as well as part of an over-arching plan but at the moment in Dublin you have three different transport operators who are contracted by the state who are all doing their own thing rather than looking at the picture together, they look at things from their own point of view rather from that of the public and that is what has to change and what I believe the NTA are trying to do with this plan.

There is limited utility having an integrated bus network, if your journey one day takes 20 mins and 50 mins the next.

I would expect things to settle down when the LUAS works are completed, these have added a lot of unpredictability to the city-center because of the various road closures and diversions which have effected traffic patterns a lot and caused greater congestion. The network redesign will also help with this although my fears are political and local pressure will prevent this.

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 2:12pm

I think you make a really good point.

The congestion is going to get worse. The simple reason for this is Luas Cross-City. Luas trains will get more frequent and longer and will cut across more traffic. This will slow everything down.

All that can really be done now is to manage this increased congestion.

In large part we are depending on the congestion forcing people onto public transport. This is a very negative and ultimately self-defeating way of dealing with the problem.

BRT and prioritisation doesn't really address the congestion either. It just reallocates the road space to give priority to the buses, which is a good thing, but doesn't add any new road capacity. Congestion will still definitely interfere with the schedules.

The major congestion-reducing measure in what is proposed will be cashless and queue-less buses. Originally this was only to be done on the BRT, and now it is to be done across the whole network. This is to be welcomed. This can be delivered quickly enough, and it will make an immediate difference to congestion, simply by reducing the time that the buses sit at stops and impedes other traffic. It will effectively create new road space.

n97 mini · 29-05-2017 2:17pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Running of the Luas was put out to tender. Transdev run it. Standards are fine and the last tram leaves after the pubs have closed, not before.

spockety · 29-05-2017 3:05pm

Bray Head wrote: »

The map suggests that one of the BRT corridors will go from Terenure through Harold's Cross.

A label is misplaced however, implying that it will go through Rathmines.

Curious to see how they are going to manage that.. surely it's not wide enough the whole way for what they claim the BRT routes will look like... Segregated cycle lanes etc.

Riskymove · 29-05-2017 3:45pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Running of the Luas was put out to tender. Transdev run it. Standards are fine and the last tram leaves after the pubs have closed, not before.

It has been re-tendered for when the contract is up in 2019

I would presume that the contract requires certain standards and level of services

the same could be done for bus routes

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 4:11pm

RiskyKerrnigan wrote: »

There is no mention of the one thing that is actually required to expand and improve the service - extra funding. Any improvements can only be delivered by cuts elsewhere. Network Direct was designed to remove the waste so I'm not sure what they think they can do.

1 billion has been promised of which 700 million are new funds

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 4:20pm

RiskyKerrnigan wrote: »

There is no mention of the one thing that is actually required to expand and improve the service - extra funding. Any improvements can only be delivered by cuts elsewhere. Network Direct was designed to remove the waste so I'm not sure what they think they can do.

You could also cut unit costs. There is plenty waste in DB apart from what was removed by Network Direct. Network Direct didn't really bring down unit costs at all. The most obvious thing to do would be to increase off-peak services. A quick calculation indicates are plenty drivers available to do this.

Zipppy · 29-05-2017 4:56pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sounds good. Very short on detail/maps/timeframes and so on. But it's a start.

Realistically when would we expect work to commence on this?

Stevek101 · 29-05-2017 5:16pm

Zipppy wrote: »

Realistically when would we expect work to commence on this?

The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

Are Am Eye · 29-05-2017 5:23pm

Its very exciting withbtalk of orbital corridors.
Passengers can pretend that theyre in a space ship in orbit.

Stevek101 · 29-05-2017 5:26pm

MOD EDIT: Removed banned user comment.

€1bn investment.. :pac:

Dyr · 29-05-2017 5:36pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

You mean the PR exercise of pretending to consult the public

All looks very low on detail, and I would be wary of welcoming anything san detail

Orbital routes are desperately needed and its amusing to see TFI pursing their lips while noting that the public does not have a culture of making multiple transfer journeys like other cities when it was their network design that was the problem in the first place

Although it seems TFI are going to continue to halve pedestrian space to accommodate cyclists. Cramming the public into ever narrower channels will work wonders for the ambiance of the city no doubt :mad:

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 6:01pm

I assume route reconfiguraton means stops will be culled too?

Spanish Eyes · 29-05-2017 6:38pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I assume route reconfiguraton means stops will be culled too?

I know being an able bodied person that my desire for fewer bus stops will be ridiculed or dismissed even.

But honestly the number of stops within a few hundred metres of each other is another big factor in the length of time it takes for a journey on DB.

Was in Nice recently and the bus stops are soooo far apart. But it works. People work around it. I am sure it is the same in other cities/towns too.

It is called Public Transport. That means transporting the greatest number of people in the shortest time to their destination.

Or is it a local service for every house and avenue that has to be maintained, well the local TD will say so anyway.

Time to get real here. The current system is unsustainable.

With fewer stops, no cash etc. things will speed up a bit. A bit I said. I am hopeful though.

brokenarms · 29-05-2017 6:52pm

Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.

Will routes still cover large estates, Like Knocklyn or Darnsdale, or is the bus just going to go near the outskirts and staying on the express type bus lane?

I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

Are Taxis going to clog up the new network?

Are Garda going to start bus lane enforcement?

How are they going to get away with removing parking all the way down the main artury streets like Clanbrassil or aungier street. If the clampers and garda dont enforse it now, whats makes the NTA think they will do it later?

Is CIE going to retain its identity?

Dyr · 29-05-2017 7:04pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.

I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

Neither of the ballymun routes weave through ballymun, 4 goes straight up the ballymun road and the 13 loops around poppintree before it goes to harristown

the route 1, on the other hand, goes on a tour of santry

lucernarian · 29-05-2017 7:13pm

I'm wondering if closely-spaced bus stops are actually a significant issue.

I used to scratch my head and metaphorically shake my fist at the likes of the north circular road, Upper Rathmines Road etc.

But then, I realised that many of those stops were used by disembarking passengers near the end of a route and didn't take much time.

I see huge delays in the city centre area as the overwhelming factor in buses running late, and the slow speed of boarding as the significant factor in bunching.

If prioritization was given to buses at all traffic light junctions, there would be less fluctuation from the bus that just made a run of green lights catching up with another that wasn't so lucky.

A bus service is primarily for convenience and as a service and we should still look towards trains for real peak time capacity.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 7:25pm

The stop issue at peak hour is solved by having more express limited stop services to and from outlying areas.

The ideal bus stop spacing is 400m per TfL guidelines and closer where demand dictates.

There are clearly stops that should be removed such as the stop on Upper Rathmines Rd that was installed to facilitate the route variation that saw left turning route 14a buses onto Church Avenue. When that route ended, the stop should have been removed, but it wasn't and we have ended up with two stops within 100m of one another that were never supposed to be served together, and which have full Kassel kerbing installed..

There are certainly other examples of locations where stops could be merged. But I don't think a mass culling of bus stops is the solution - yes I do think that they should be reviewed fully, from a location, design and safety perspective, but I'm not sure that will result in a huge cull to be honest.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 7:25pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.

Will routes still cover large estates, Like Knocklyn or Darnsdale, or is the bus just going to go near the outskirts and staying on the express type bus lane?

I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

Are Taxis going to clog up the new network?

Are Garda going to start bus lane enforcement?

How are they going to get away with removing parking all the way down the main artury streets like Clanbrassil or aungier street. If the clampers and garda dont enforse it now, whats makes the NTA think they will do it later?

Is CIE going to retain its identity?

Wait until we see the detailed plans - right now we have aspirations.

Stephen15 · 29-05-2017 7:28pm

One of things I dont think is a good idea is these new extremely long orbital routes.

My belief is shorter routes work better as they're more efficient in the sense they have quicker journey times meaning that their timetable and frequency is better met.

boobycharlton · 29-05-2017 7:31pm

More PR guff. I remember when the 51B replaced the 68's and was going to be part of Clondalkin's new and improved, high speed bus corridor back in the 90's, then the new and improved 13 and now it'll be the new and improved something else in a different colour. I can't fathom how they are going to have a dedicated, unbroken bus lane from the city to Clondalkin and back. There just isn't space for one, especially on the Naas Road and in Inchicore where delays happen most. Doubt the lads making these plans even know that though.

Peregrine · 29-05-2017 7:45pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know being an able bodied person that my desire for fewer bus stops will be ridiculed or dismissed even.

But honestly the number of stops within a few hundred metres of each other is another big factor in the length of time it takes for a journey on DB.

Was in Nice recently and the bus stops are soooo far apart. But it works. People work around it. I am sure it is the same in other cities/towns too.

It is called Public Transport. That means transporting the greatest number of people in the shortest time to their destination.

Or is it a local service for every house and avenue that has to be maintained, well the local TD will say so anyway.

Time to get real here. The current system is unsustainable.

With fewer stops, no cash etc. things will speed up a bit. A bit I said. I am hopeful though.

If you're ever been on the 9 on the Northside, you'll know what it's like to be on a bus that has too many bloody stops.

Prospect Avenue - St. Theresa’s Place: 190m
St. Theresa’s Place - Botanic Road: 290m

3 stops in a distance of 480m.

Griffitth Avenue - Glasnevin Tennis Club: 250m
Glasnevin Tennis Club - St. Canice’s Road: 210m
St. Canice’s Road - DCU: 170m
DCU - St. Pappin’s Road: 160m
St. Pappin’s Road - Glasnevin Avenue: 220m

6 stops in a distance of 1km.

Beneavin Drive - Beneavin Park: 230m
Beneavin Park - Beneavin School: 180m
Beneavin School - Ballygall Avenue: 350m

4 stops in 760m.

Clune Road - Clancy Avenue: 160m
Clancy Avenue - Sycamore Road: 290m
Sycamore Road - McKee Road: 130m

4 stops in 580m.

The last one there. It stops outside a house, sets off, turns left and stops 10 houses later!

These aren't busy stops in medium or high density areas. All of them are outside sprawled semi-D estates. The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

is deemed to be better that this

In fact, the 9 doesn't have to serve Beneavin at all. It should stay on Glasnevin Avenue and they can extent the 11 — which terminates in the middle of a random housing estate just outside the bottom right of that picture — by 1km through the blue line.

brokenarms · 29-05-2017 7:59pm

How did you work out the distance between the stop so well?

I have a few more.

Terenure on the 49 out. Seems like 20m from one stop to another.

Killinarden estate. seems like 50m between stops at the top of the hill at the last bend outbound.

Outside Crumlin hospital outbound. Has a stop at each end of the lights(with pedestrian crossing.) The bus has to leave the correct lane and fight back into it to get to the kerb..

Rathmines road is another stupid area where the stops are so close, the bikes have to play leap frog.

Cookie_Monster · 29-05-2017 8:03pm

That map in the document has the 7 back on Rochestown Ave...

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 8:06pm

You can knock out a few stops for sure, but what difference will it really make? Most of the time, the stops don't have anybody getting on or off. The bus doesn't even slow down.

The much bigger issue at the moment is the 'dwell time' at the stops.

john boye · 29-05-2017 8:10pm

Peregrine wrote: »

If you're ever been on the 9 on the Northside, you'll know what it's like to be on a bus that has too many bloody stops.

Prospect Avenue - St. Theresa’s Place: 190m
St. Theresa’s Place - Botanic Road: 290m

3 stops in a distance of 480m.

Griffitth Avenue - Glasnevin Tennis Club: 250m
Glasnevin Tennis Club - St. Canice’s Road: 210m
St. Canice’s Road - DCU: 170m
DCU - St. Pappin’s Road: 160m
St. Pappin’s Road - Glasnevin Avenue: 220m

6 stops in a distance of 1km.

Beneavin Drive - Beneavin Park: 230m
Beneavin Park - Beneavin School: 180m
Beneavin School - Ballygall Avenue: 350m

4 stops in 760m.

Clune Road - Clancy Avenue: 160m
Clancy Avenue - Sycamore Road: 290m
Sycamore Road - McKee Road: 130m

4 stops in 580m.

The last one there. It stops outside a house, sets off, turns left and stops 10 houses later!

These aren't busy stops in medium or high density areas. All of them are outside sprawled semi-D estates. The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

is deemed to be better that this

In fact, the 9 doesn't have to serve Beneavin at all. It should stay on Glasnevin Avenue and they can extent the 11 — which terminates in the middle of a random housing estate just outside the bottom right of that picture — by 1km through the blue line.

Don't get me started. The 2 outbound stops less than 100m from each other in Perrystown on the 150 are my favourite. Honourable mention too for the 2 outbound stops on Limekiln Rd and the 2 literally around the corner from one another on Belgard Square.

Peregrine · 29-05-2017 8:15pm

brokenarms wrote: »

How did you work out the distance between the stop so well?

I have a few more.

Terenure on the 49 out. Seems like 20m from one stop to another.

Killinarden estate. seems like 50m between stops at the top of the hill at the last bend outbound.

Outside Crumlin hospital outbound. Has a stop at each end of the lights(with pedestrian crossing.) The bus has to leave the correct lane and fight back into it to get to the kerb..

Rathmines road is another stupid area where the stops are so close, the bikes have to play leap frog.

Google Maps. Right click to measure distance. It won't be accurate to the metre but accurate enough over those distances.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can knock out a few stops for sure, but what difference will it really make? Most of the time, the stops don't have anybody getting on or off. The bus doesn't even slow down.

The much bigger issue at the moment is the 'dwell time' at the stops.

Simpler network, shorter journeys, fewer stops to maintain, less of a nightmare for cyclists and motorists. I've found it to stop at most of those stops only to take on/let off one or two passengers. It's infuriating seeing my journey lengthened so that some people don't have to walk more than 2 minutes to catch a bus.

The difference is that, due to a combination of too many stops, too many detours and too long dwell times, I don't get the bus anymore.

Dwell times is a big issue and, yes, bigger than this but this is still an annoying an unnecessary issue.

lucernarian · 29-05-2017 8:22pm

Some of the worst examples of stops being close together really are non-issue, because they're so rarely used. Upper Rathmines Road is an especially pertinent example, and this issue would if anything unnecessarily distract from real issues like a lack of dedicated road space on critical corridors or crazy route diversions for some routes.

Tusky · 29-05-2017 8:27pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

RTE news said public consultation next year - no idea why such a delay...

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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