Why does the Catholic Church still have control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

A systemic cover-up by individuals within the organisation, is exactly what it is.

Guilt by association was never going to be a good strategy to begin with, and posters pointing out that another poster should ‘hang their heads in shame’, and ‘get lost’, when they’re pointing out the role played by the State and its organs in perpetuating physical, sexual and psychological abuse of children and vulnerable adults, is doing exactly the same thing as was done to anyone who didn’t go along with it then too.

While Enda was giving an apology on behalf of the State for the State’s role in the Magdalen Laundries, the State was actively trying to deny Louise O’ Keefe justice, and attempting to absolve the State of any responsibility for the protection of children in the State.

https://www.newstalk.com/the-pat-kenny-show/eu-court-to-rule-if-irish-woman-can-sue-the-state-for-abuse-709889

https://www.newstalk.com/news/the-state-will-fight-you-tooth-and-nail-abuse-survivor-louise-okeeffe-questions-school-redress-scheme-1764091

There’s no question that other States also colluded with the Church in other countries too, they absolutely did, but this discussion is related to the Church in Irish schools, in Ireland, where Louise O’ Keefe’s abuser moved from one school to another of his own volition, and carried on as before:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30788953.html

Utter scumbag:

On the question of remembering the complainant, Leo Hickey said, “If he was very troublesome or backward or very clever I might remember him but it seems he was very much average so I have no recollection of him.”

I get anyone rightfully having a beef with the church, that’s completely understandable, but let’s not, as Frank suggests - delude ourselves and think that not only can we rewrite history, we can rewrite Irish Law too.

Project any harder and you’ll be able to open your own IMAX.

I’ve provided you with facts which directly refute your opinions, and the only reason I can do that is because these are events which are recorded in history. That you don’t wish to acknowledge these events as fact is entirely your own business. It doesn’t and won’t change the fact that these are events that happened, and the State is ultimately responsible for not doing anything to prevent them from happening again, and again, and again.

You’ve just admitted that the RCC was responsible for committing the acts. Thank you, well done.

I didn’t expect you to admit you were wrong, I don’t even want an apology, and I sure as hell don’t care for an acknowledgement that you were wrong, but that effort? Jesus Christ 🙄

I should hope everyone can see what I’m doing (I want people to see it, it’s why I’m posting in public, on a public forum) as I’m focused on the question in the thread title - why does the Catholic Church still have control over some schools in Ireland?

I’d have pointed out the Catholic Church has control over most schools in Ireland, because it owns them, but that seemed nit picky when the argument was that it’s time that changed. I’d also have said it was long overdue for being changed (again, nitpicking and really neither here nor there), but if the strongest argument for change is that the Church as a whole is responsible for the behaviour of individuals within it who committed sexual offences and abused children with impunity so the State should take the schools from them… well Frank that’s just stupid, on three counts:

1. The State is ultimately responsible for the protection of children in the first place anyway, preventing children from being exposed to physical, psychological and sexual abuse
2. Removing property from the ownership of the Church isn’t necessary, the State could spend the same money on the establishment of new schools rather than fill the Bishops coffers (and God knows they don’t need the money!).
3. It still wouldn’t prevent abusers from abusing children and it being covered up by their colleagues, friends and indeed family:

A teacher who raped and sexually abused his younger brother when they were children has been jailed for eight and a half years.

…

Mr Daly said he had kept the abuse a secret for 18 years and it was “such a relief to share the burden”. His father accompanied him when he went to gardaí early in 2016.

However, he said it soon emerged that his parents were only prepared to support him if he kept the abuse “among ourselves”. “Why should I stay silent?” he said, adding: “I was happy for everyone to know,” but said this proved “detrimental” to his family life.

“(My parents) blamed me, took the side of my brother and I was forced out of the family home.”

Mr Daly said he used to have sympathy for his parents, but not any more. “I was telling the truth and I have proved it,” he said. “It's easier for them to believe that I'm a liar than believe their oldest son is a paedophile rapist.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tipperary-teacher-jailed-for-rape-of-younger-brother-as-a-child-1247771.html

You can choose to believe whatever you want, I really don’t care. But when you’re posting nonsense about other people, then you should expect to be challenged, without you getting all pompous and snotty about that.

That’s not an argument against the facts Frank. Your claims were ridiculous, and easily proven to be incorrect:

A State could not absolve itself from its obligations to minors in primary schools by delegating those duties to private bodies or individuals.

Your argument against the involvement of the Catholic Church in education in Ireland is based solely upon nothing more than your own opinions of the Catholic Church. That’s all they are - opinions, not to be confused with facts.

Given that your opinions haven’t managed to change the status quo in Ireland in decades, even though the behaviour of individuals within the Catholic Church was known about by the State going back decades before that, I’d suggest your efforts to use the abuse of children as a vehicle for your bigotry was the clearest indication yet that the majority of people in this country don’t make the same associations as you do based on nothing more than your own personal beliefs about other people.

You hardly expected on a public forum that there wouldn’t be people who would object to your attempts to associate them with other people who committed criminal offences and that they too are guilty by association on the basis of characteristics they share in common with people who commit criminal offences, did you? That kind of ‘guilt by association’ is what led to this kind of stupidity:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Wall

As usual, the idea is to flood the thread with enough verbose BS to make all other posters just give up

You’re hardly in any position to make that claim given your own contributions form a far more significant makeup of this particular thread than my own. I bailed out earlier when it became apparent that this wasn’t actually going to be a thread which bears the hallmarks of any attachment to reality:

Classic case of the confident moron.

I wouldn’t refer to you in those terms at all Frank, certainly firing off abuse at anyone who presents you with the facts is not the hallmark of a confident individual, whatever else can be said about them. O’ Keefe v Ireland isn’t an edge case, it is the case, which established that ultimately it was the States responsibility to prevent the sexual abuse of minors in schools.

Start there, if you want to talk about preventing adults from physically, emotionally and sexually abusing children in schools, because that requires politicians to enact legislation, or change existing legislation. Otherwise, it’s just another rabble rousing thread which isn’t actually intended to achieve anything - it’s just a rabble rousing session. Nothing to see here, parents go on about your business.

Ignorance as a strategy.

So, I'm pointing out that the church is guilty of crimes while also highlighting these other crimes in the same order of merit and that means I'm deflecting, right.

Correct, if you are bringing in other orgs sports etc, you are actively trying to deflect from the crimes that the RCC have committed, it is a false equivilancy.

This thread is about the rcc and when the same issues were discussed in the other thread, which you actually brought up in your case against the other poster, it was similarly shut down despite the fact that several of the cases which were referred to were included in the scoping report. (those involving lay teachers)

The other posters actively tried to deflect from what the RCC have done, they also claimed that "no one was moved around" which is categorically false.

Keneally's crimes were covered up by the state, aided and abetted by the gardai at the behest of a family deeply submerged in local politics and whose uncle was the local monsignor. People did know about their victims but in most cases the gardai had their hands tied. Tom Meehan was never prosecuted despite one if his victims being awarded compensation in a civil case. The DPP decided not to proceed with a criminal case against him despite the evidence.

Who is Keneally? The only person by that name I am familiar with is Thomas Keneally, who was Australian and wrote books about the child abuse scandals at the hands of the RCC.

These cases are relevant. I've read some of the individual reports where people did tell their parents about the abuse in schools but they were not believed, because like Michael Shine, priests like doctors were above reproach. 

This is a drop in the ocean of cases that were covered up. I do not deny it happened, but I will ask did the parents go the authorities or not? You are touching on an important point that priests were seen as above reproach, this is part of the overall problem here. They are members of society and under the same rules of law as other citizens.

Nobody is shifting the blame from the church, no one is absolving them of their responsibility but as someone who has spent time working in the sector I'm guessing Jacks approach is one with lived experience and driven by a need for change.

If you say "Nobody is shifting the blame from the church, no one is absolving them of their responsibility" and follow that up with a "but…", you are doing exactly that. Who cares about someones lived experience, tell that to the victims of these horrific acts and crimes.

This is a lived experience. Would you say the same thing to this man?

I went to Catholic school myself and got a very good education as did my children and my grandchildren will go there too . Yes there were a small amount bad catholic priests but there was plenty of good ones too who we never hear anything about .

We know what happens when the church run it, so I think we can scratch that off.

Keneally sounds like an awful person.

It is also investigating the knowledge of Monsignor John Shine, or other members of the catholic clergy and any political or public figures as well as any contact between gardaí in Waterford and the monsignor or between Waterford gardaí and political figures or public officials about the abuse.

It also reads, that the Monsignor had a role in this, so again the RCC played a role in hiding these, along with members of the Gardai. So you original statement that they were hidden by the state are misleading, they were hidden by the bishop and members of the Gardai, not the state.

Tom Meehan was a lay teacher in a school included in the scoping report https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/it-never-leaves-you-14-men-come-forward-with-sexual-abuse-allegations-against-former-teacher-in-waterford-city/42411437.html

But does not negate the preceding sentence. 

I think we can agree that these acts are vile, and should have been met with punishment and proper investigation.

Waterpark College was founded by the Christian Brothers in 1892. It now operates under the trusteeship of the Edmund Rice Schools Trust.

To get back to the topic, one of the values of the ERST is a commitment to living out Christian Values. It would appear that those who are to teach these, do not even follow them themselves.

Nobody is suggesting that. ET and similar bodies are not going to be forced out of schools.

BTW you never did provide the evidence you claimed to have that ET are not interested in establishing schools outside of middle class areas.

There might still be a bit of it in teacher training colleges.

Thanks for making that connection.

There were a lot of people involved, including local government representatives. Keneally laughed while informing a state inquiry that he was offered a seat on Waterford City Council in the early-1990s. Five years previously he had been questioned by gardaí over complaints of child abuse.

Again though, you really are trying to loop in other parties here as a bit of a deflection from the topic of this thread. Why exactly are you doing this?

Catholic apologists are a unique bunch.

Is the weirdness because she's Catholic, or because Irish people have a massive capacity for living with cognitive dissonance?

You want evidence of that - Well how come Bons Secours is the brand of a very popular chain of private hospitals? In any other country the very name would be toxic.

Your thinking that attempting to remove religious education from religious education providers would do anything whatsoever to prevent people who are of a mind to abuse children from doing so, is just dumb.

This is a complete strawman of your invention. All possible efforts should be made to prevent abuse obviously, but that's not the reason religious patronage should be removed. It should be removed because our education system places a grossly excessive emphasis on religion, and does not respect the rights of non-catholic pupils, parents and teachers.