Decades of Aston Villa Underachievement!

The Golden Miller · 19-09-2024 11:24pm #1

Setting up a thread for this as I'll be accused of wumming if I put it on the Villa thread. And it's somewhat having a go at them. On Tuesday I was in the pub, and there was a group of Villa fans, delighted with how things are going in recent years, and the debate got quite heated. I was saying, celebrating your recent "success"/improvement, is actually embarrassing, for a club in Villa's position. They're approaching a level, where they literally should of been, all along.

I'm always baffled why more isn't said about this, why London, Manchester and Liverpool, all had great success and teams consistently competiting for the league, but Englands second city has two teams underachieving for decades. I mean, anything short of Villa winning league titles, and competing every year, is actually inexcusable for a team in their position…..by far the biggest team in Englands second biggest city.

People often accuse my of wumming for some reason, but I'm deadly serious here. There's so many clubs and split support in London, split support in Manchester and Liverpool, and Villa are easily the biggest club in Birmingham. Objectively, it could be argued, they should be the biggest and most successful team in England, year in, year out.

Villa fans shouldn't be celebrating this turn around in fortunes, moreso demanding it at all times. And Leeds aren't far behind them, as the only club in England's 3rd/4th biggest city, in terms of being a disgrace in what they've achieved, when you consider the priviledged position both clubs have. The fans of Villa, with their uptake in fortunes though, should quiten down a bit, as they've been getting loud as of late. I'd be more embarrassed, if I was a Villa fan, that this is being celebrated. It's a disgrace that they aren't one of the top teams every year!

~Rebel~ · 19-09-2024 11:38pm

Why do you think population density alone should be the overriding factor in determining a teams success? Seems to omit a whole bunch of equally - if not more - important factors. Beyond the 42k that can fit in the stadium, I'm not so sure that having a bigger population in pure numbers is all that impactful, particularly when the average full time Birmingham citizen's wage is 25% lower than the average Liverpool or Manchester wage, so maybe people have bigger priorities than buying merch.

The Golden Miller · 19-09-2024 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635222#Comment_122635222

So your telling me, with the position they're in, their form for nearly the last 100 years, bar a spell in the early 80's, is acceptable? You don't feel they should be generally better, pretty much all of the time?

fergiesfolly · 19-09-2024 11:54pm

By your logic, City should have half of United's historic success. Everton half of Liverpool's. Blackburn should never have won a league, nor should Leicester. Newcastle should've won several leagues and Spurs should've had at least couple in the last 40 years or so.

But, as they say, footballs a funny old game. There's no rhyme or reason based on geography that dictates success.

Also, this is the worst claptrap of a thread started on this forum in a bloody long time.

~Rebel~ · 20-09-2024 12:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635233#Comment_122635233

I'm telling you you're ignoring vast numbers of key factors that go into being successful, and hyperfixating on one that is far less relevant than you think. Yeah, they probably should've been more successful - nowhere near as much as you make out - but that's not how football works. Loads of teams should be more successful, but ultimately only a few can be successful. And while success begets success, failure begets failure, and makes it harder and harder to narrow a gap. There's no shortage of 'sleeping giants' in English football.

Context is important. The improvement's they've made recently to claw back up the table from near-relegation are obviously to be celebrated.

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 12:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635252#Comment_122635252

Ye I understand theres factors, but when all is said and done, for a city that's the size of Birmingham, there's simply no justifiable reason that they don't have at least one team thats competitive and challenging for league titles regularly.

Even Leed's tried to have a go and get back up there. I hope Villa do well and stay up there, and fulfill the potential they have, they're a sleeping giant. But it's not something their fans should be delighted about, as opposed to demanding, year after year, which you'd expect.

I don't think the football community has been hard enough in that sense on football in Birmingham generally. It's quite the anomaly if we're both being brutally honest

~Rebel~ · 20-09-2024 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635269#Comment_122635269

If it's just all about population, why are China and India not the best countries in the world at football then?

You need to give more detail on why you think population alone should see them being so hugely successful - and bear in mind that just consistently being one of the comparatively tiny number of clubs in the top flight is in itself significant success, putting them in the highest echelons of world football, even if they've not quite been at the very peak of the very peak.

So why do you think it's not an issue that the spending power of that population is significantly lower than the diaspora of other cities? Why are things like the quality of grassroots infrastructure less important than sheer numbers? The club's academies themselves can only have so many players after all - you need significant investment in a city's broader grassroots structures to make any use of that larger population. "Big city should equal champion team" isn't quite enough of a point…

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635298#Comment_122635298

Your being disingenious, as well you know. Birmingham is a football mad city, arguably moreso than any other city

~Rebel~ · 20-09-2024 1:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635301#Comment_122635301

That was obviously a facetious point, to point out how silly it is to repeatedly look at the population alone and declare that this should signal total success. Take a look at addressing the other points and maybe there's a conversation to be had.

Football mad… what does that mean, and why should it translate? There are, after all, far more soccer fans in China (200 million) than there are in England. But obviously that's only one metric, which in context only tells a tiny piece of the story.

Bounty Hunter · 20-09-2024 2:03am

There is a way to approach things.

You could obviously have a discussion on if Villa have been underachieving for years and in doing so you might have many Villa fans actually agreeing with you but telling them it is embarrassing to celebrate their recent success is obviously winding them up.

Getting back to where they should have been in your opinion is of course worth celebrating considering where they were. They were… For example they were in the championship less than 5 years ago and now they are in the champions league. Would Leeds fans not be loving it if they were to get back in the champions league? Villa are a huge club but fans born in the past 40 years have never seen them play champions league football, should they not revel in their club reaching the peak of where they have been while they have supported them.

Yes Villa come from the second biggest city in the country but Birmingham isn't similar to London, no top player talks about wanting to end up there. You could argue the same about places like Manchester or Liverpool but sustained success from clubs in those cities have made them desirable locations when recruiting players. If Villa can continue this spell of growth the players will come to allow future challenges but for now the fact that Villa are still competing with these clubs and the likes of Arsenal & Chelsea from London makes recent achievements even more worth enjoying.

People talk about the top 6 clubs, which Villa are not one of and yet they currently sit in the top 6 of the premiership table and are playing in the champions league. They should be commended for competing and in some cases outperforming some of these historically more successful clubs who have had money ploughed into them for decades, not labeled embarassing and told to pipe down because they haven't been doing it historically.

Yes, Villa now also have wealthy owners but they cannot spend on the levels of some other clubs due to PSR etc as they attempt to catch up with these already established big boys. People love to point out Villa's spent huge over the summer for example - according to sky it was £129.5m but their net spend was actually around 7m in profit. When compared to the likes of Man Utd (-111m net spend) or Spurs (-70m net spend) or Chelsea (-66m net) you can see how it is not a level playing field, which one would imagine would make fans revel even more in any success they have ahead of such clubs this season. That would only be natural but you say they shouldn't be celebrating this turn around in fortune.

You make such sweeping statements about what the club should have achieved and strangely target the fans for enjoying when they are now achieving some of what you say they should be achieving. Yet you also ignore how the clubs who have had success got into those situations and seems to refuse to accept that challenging them despite everything but size of city is in itself a big achievement worthy of praise. Rome has a far higher population than Milan & Turin… fans from Roma and Lazo should be ashamed of themselves… and those fans from Naples should have been embarrassed celebrating winning the league recently considering they are from the 3rd biggest city and should have been winning many titles before now, just like China and India should be getting to the world cup final every 4 years and… nonsense.

Have Villa underachieved in the past… arguably yes

Should their fans be embarrassed they are celebrating recent success…. Are you having a laugh, no

Should you be considered winding them up if you say otherwise… of course, there is a way to say things without p!ssing in people's conflakes and telling them they should be used to it

Should Villa actually be commended for what they are doing now…Yes, a very well club in recent times that are on the up even though the current landscape makes it very hard to sustain

Curse These Metal Hands · 20-09-2024 2:06am

How is the population of a city relavant to success when club teams comprise numerous nationalities? I would say English players are the minority in many top tier teams.

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 2:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635327#Comment_122635327

Can't reply to most of these recent messages now, can tomorrow, just wanted to point out I'm not trying to wind them up. Literally created another thread, so as not to go onto theirs, for exactly that reason.

My words might be harsh, but I'm not trying to wind anyone up

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 2:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635329#Comment_122635329

Your right. Leitrim should be winning All Irelands every year

Curse These Metal Hands · 20-09-2024 2:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635333#Comment_122635333

Logical comparison, if you ignore the fact that Leitrim can't field players from literally anywhere in the world.

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 2:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635327#Comment_122635327

And just quickly, Naples, Rome and Lazio fans are disgusted with their domestic title returns, and demand far greater success, unlike Villa. They are 3 of the most high pressured jobs in world football, such is the expectancy of where they should be

The Golden Miller · 20-09-2024 2:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635337#Comment_122635337

Villa have been underpeforming for decades, bar one spell, before it was a global league

Bounty Hunter · 20-09-2024 2:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635338#Comment_122635338

Those were probably the easiest things to nitpick from my point but Villa fans are also disappointed with their domestic title return historically but that does not mean that they should not celebrate success when it does come?

But just to expand on the Italian point (though if you are to argue peoples points instead of thinking you know what some of what people are saying is correct here then maybe go back to all the more Villa related points I made earlier) Milan and Turin are from the Northern, more affluent region of Italy. Meanwhile Roma, Lazio, Napoli despite being from big cities are from the Mezzogiorno region in the south which historically had less fertile more mountainous land and as a result was less affluent / wealthy. This has probably far more so than the population size affected how those cities and clubs developed and if you think about England in the same way it's not like Birmingham has ever been the rich desirable area in England.

Bounty Hunter · 20-09-2024 2:51am

Also you may not intentionally be trying to be a WUM because as you say you aren't posting this in the Villa thread but telling any set of fans they should be embarrassed for celebrating success will of course wind them up.

Necro · 20-09-2024 9:10am

Mod: Poster clearly set this up with intention to troll - closed and poster actioned.

Decades of Aston Villa Underachievement!

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