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Battery alternative to storage heaters

  • 26-01-2020 12:43pm
    #1
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭


    Just a thought that popped into my head recently while watching a YouTube video on the Tesla powerwall.

    My apartment is heated exclusively by electricity, primarily by storage heaters.

    I found myself wondering about the economics of replacing storage heaters with regular electric heaters but powered from a battery which charges on night rate electricity.

    Given the lack of controllability of storage heaters, losses during times when I'm not home etc., there would be some advantages to batteries. They can hold their energy better than a hot brick, have electronic timers and thermostats and so on.

    As I'm not aware of any such products I guess the economics aren't there but does anyone have an estimate of how close (or far) batteries are from competing with storage heaters?

    Also how would the energy density compare? Would a battery with equivalent capacity of a storage heater be the size of my living room?

    As you can see I've done none of the math on this!


Comments

  • #2
    ercork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Just a thought that popped into my head recently while watching a YouTube video on the Tesla powerwall.

    My apartment is heated exclusively by electricity, primarily by storage heaters.

    I found myself wondering about the economics of replacing storage heaters with regular electric heaters but powered from a battery which charges on night rate electricity.

    Given the lack of controllability of storage heaters, losses during times when I'm not home etc., there would be some advantages to batteries. They can hold their energy better than a hot brick, have electronic timers and thermostats and so on.

    As I'm not aware of any such products I guess the economics aren't there but does anyone have an estimate of how close (or far) batteries are from competing with storage heaters?

    Also how would the energy density compare? Would a battery with equivalent capacity of a storage heater be the size of my living room?

    As you can see I've done none of the math on this!

    Looks like somebody has been thinking along the same lines as you:

    https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/plug-and-play-radiator-doubles-home-energy-storage-solution-lower-electric-bills.html


  • #3
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    ercork wrote: »
    Looks like somebody has been thinking along the same lines as you:

    https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/plug-and-play-radiator-doubles-home-energy-storage-solution-lower-electric-bills.html

    Thanks for that. Interesting. The article is 3 years old and they haven't taken over the world yet so I'm guessing the economics still aren't there.


  • #4
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I suppose the first thing to find out is how much juice one of you current storage heaters takes in on a normal off peak cycle, then compare that to an equivalent battery or power wall ...
    Are your storage heaters any good , or do you feel that the house is being heated when you don't want it to be ..?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #5
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I suppose the first thing to find out is how much juice one of you current storage heaters takes in on a normal off peak cycle, then compare that to an equivalent battery or power wall ...
    Are your storage heaters any good , or do you feel that the house is being heated when you don't want it to be ..?

    Definitely wasting energy heating the place when I'm out. Also, if the weather warms up quickly, the storage heaters don't care and keep chucking out the same heat as if it was sub zero outside. Or if there is a sudden cold snap, I need to boost the storage heat with peak rate electric heating.

    I could possibly set and manage the storage heaters better but the basic operation will still be very wasteful.


  • #6
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Storage heaters should all be smart devices these days.

    Linked to your calendar and the weather forecast.

    Including things like how warm your house gets from cooking or water heating or sunlight. ie. there's a thermostat somewhere checking how warm the rooms normally are.


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  • #7
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    I was on Google checking if something as simple as replacing the bricks in a storage heater with a battery made sense yet and my own post came close to the top of the list! The economics of battery storage have surely changed a lot in the last 4.5 years.

    Is there such a product yet? Even a plug-in heater that charges it's battery overnight and unlike a storage heater, I can set a thermostat or simply turn it off and not waste charge when I don't need it. But preferably someting internet connected so I could remote control it too.

    Also, Sorry, probably broke a zombie thread rule but can't delete :(



  • #8
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,982 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122627824#Comment_122627824

    Anything run off a battery will produce heat directly or indirectly. Using a heater would be one of the most wasteful ways of using electricity.

    A good well installed heat pump would give you several times the heat a simple heater would.

    A dehumidifier should also give you the latent heat of water vapour condensing. And dry your towels.

    Or use 'waste' heat from other devices. Use a cooker or kettle, Turn on the TV, ramp up the FPS on computer games.

    In theory in the past you could mine bitcoins as you'd still get the same heat and perhaps earn a little to offset the cost.

    Washing machines and dishwashers would mean a lot of heat lost down the drain so not so good as heaters.



  • #9
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628054#Comment_122628054

    Using waste heat from cooking, gaming, etc. isn't controllable in terms of temperature or timing and could encourage wasteful use of heat generating appliances.

    Air source heat pumps not always practical for apartment dwellers like me.

    Battery storage heaters could - in theory at least - charge when there is excess generation and cheap electricity.

    I'm interested in the economics as well as the efficiency. And I'd measure efficiency not in mathematical terms of energy losses, but in terms of total kWh per annum (or total CO2 emissions) to keep my apartment warm.



  • #10
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does anyone know what those mobile air-conditioners are like for heating ? They're effectively a mobile heat-pump for 5 or 6 hundred quid , and no installation costs -

    But I've no idea what the C.O.P is ,

    Obviously it needs to be vented, and probably a twin vent model ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #11
    wandererz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭wandererz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635382#Comment_122635382

    Somewhere on here a few days ago someone said that they are sh1te. I don't have a link, sorry.



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  • #12
    shoegirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    I mean technically you could charge up a plug in battery at off peak rates and then plug in your electric heater when you actually need it. But generally there is only around a 1/3 discount on peak rates compared to day/night rates for off peak & you'd need a fairly large capacity battery for even a modest 1kw heater.

    I suspect that the fact that in Ireland electric heating users are mostly tenants living in apartments and pre-63s mean there is no real push towards finding more effective and efficient solutions for this cohort of residents.



  • #13
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732992#Comment_122732992

    How are more recent (and future) apartments heated? Heat pumps? Gas? I can't say I've actually checked.

    Night rate is generally around half of day rate on urban night saver.



  • #14
    con747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭con747


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122734619#Comment_122734619

    Check out some of the threads here.

    https://www.boards.ie/categories/renewable-energies

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



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