Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

I can find no evidence that anyone entered the house until Eugene Gilligan arrived from Dublin at @ 23.00. He says he was handed the keys by Sgt Prendevlle. He tried the front door but couldn't open it because the keys were in it so he entered by the back door instead. At that time all the lights were off. I imagine the keys he was given were Josie's as there appear to have been only 2 sets. But we don't know exactly how they got from Josie to the Guards. As she was meeting Sophie there she may not initially have brought her set with her.

I see it the same way. It also depicted the French justice system in a very bad light. Convicting somebody for murder on hearsay and no evidence beyond reasonable doubt. I often wonder if Sophie's family in France are so naive or stupid to really belive this?

It would worry me very much if an innocent man would be sentenced for murder, regardless who he was. At the same time, it wouldn't bother me, if Bailey would have rotted in a French jail, if there was actual real evidence. But there wasn't anything. Even Sophie's son would have to understand that at some point regardless of his pain upon the death of his mother.

The miscarriage of justice and everything else went this way, because nearly everyone involved can't be trusted. This sadly starts with Dermot Dwyer. No excuses, but if you're the CEO, or the captain, or the department manager of whatever, you're responsible for the whole lot, all the way down. If Dwyer didn't care or that was "his style of working" then one can only say that in such an organization, it's like a fish which starts to stink right from the head. I truly think there should have been disciplinary consequences for Dwyer on how the investigation was botched up, from lost evidence, pages torn out of job books to giving drugs to transients and coercing a witness. What happend here was nothing minor.

The Irish police was corrupt and incompetent, their practices unacceptable, all the characters from Alfie to Bolger to Finbar Hellens and Bailey had prior issues with the law, Marie Farrell can't be trusted either, the French judiciary most likely acted upon influence of Daniel's family.

Without DNA or fingerprints or other solid evidence the case would have been a difficult one in the first place as well.

The only part which prevented an innocent man to be sent to jail for murder was the Irish judiciary.

Personally I think that given the strides in DNA testing in the 30 years since the murder occurred, (we've gone from blood type testing with spoonfuls required, to touch DNA), how it is being used to increasingly convict numerous cold cases throughout the world, how it has already flagged new DNA in this particular case too over a decade ago (2011/2012), indicates to me that it is almost certain there is more to find, if the gardai can prevent any remaining samples being destroyed or 'lost'. If this is done, I believe that the killer will be identified.

This is an April 2024 article so may have been covered on the thread already - I mean does this not shout “person of interest”?

https://www.thesun.ie/news/12662557/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-murder-probe-mystery-man-id/amp/

Maybe someone can make a definitive statement on this who is closer and more familiar with all the evidence.

He appears to have started writing the article in the house- then went to the studio to type it up is what I’ve read elsewhere in this thread.
it seems like a long time to write an article but it’s certainly possible too - you’d wonder given the time of night that he may have fell back asleep on a couch or something ?

But certainly 9am coffee with Jules is what I’ve had in my head for a long time now- I don’t know how it moved to 11am

At the end of the day everything after he got out of bed at 2.30 until around 9 a.m. is effectively Bailey giving his own alibi. After 9 he could not have made it back on foot in time anyway so it doesn't really matter.

I imagine he's been somewhat vague/inconsistent over the years on the specifics of his timeline, which would be reasonable on a nondescript night in the middle of winter when you're already drunk and an alcoholic. Once he was accused of murder anything he said could be used against him as well.

I would largely believe that Pierre-Louis Baudey Vignaud is very much upset by his mother's murder and that to date it's still not solved. I think anybody would be upset. His English does also not appear to be that good, so that a strong understanding on how the process in Ireland and the UK would work in terms of courts and conviction might be hard to understand?

Apart from that in his professional capacity he's in a job where one would believe he's a smart man as well. What I also supsect is that he was most likely born into a well to do family and a good financial background and the legal system in France probably did an influencial family a favour as well? Daniel's family seems to have an influential background.

There would be one way of approaching this:

I understood that the cavity blocks at the pumphouse were not easy to take, not easy to remove, one would have to have done an awful lot of things to take one of them. There was some roof covering everything, which one would have removed with force, possibly a point of injury or leaving DNA traces. This is where I would have searched in my investigation.

If one would have been able to actually find DNA or fingerprints there, it would have been unique to the crime, not someting anybody would normally touch coming and going and visiting somebody. ( That is unless a contractor was working on the pumphouse before ).

It is understood, that initially the killer used a stone to kill Sophie, but later on he decided to finish her off with a cavity block. Why wouldn't the rock do the job? Why go the extra length and the extra energy to remove the cavity block, especially if time was of the essence to avoid being seen? All good questions.

This would also suggest that the killer was familiar with pump houses and a rural environment.

I am aware that they re-examined the cavity block for DNA and then travelled to Paris France to interview a man? Were they taking DNA samples from this man? ( If so, it was probably not a match otherwise we'd heard about it by now)

With many now dead ( Bailey, Alfie, Wolney, "horny" Guard from Bantry), the only others alive and of closer interest would probably be Leo Bolger, Finbar Hellens and that man in Paris France. I would suspect they would all have to have provided a DNA sample as part of the investigation?

This crime can't be solved without some decent evidence, and DNA would very clear. Ultimately one needs proof beyond reasonable doubt for a conviction not a sighting at Kealfadda bridge, say 3 or 5 kilometers away…..

If they would have found Alfie's DNA on the roof of the pumphouse he could have argued that he had water pressure problems in his house the night or day before and was investigating the matter. That'll be more difficult then.

However if Ian Bailey's, Leo Bolger's, Finbar Hellen's, or that Paris based French man's DNA was found on the roof of the pumphouse it would have been hard to explain away. That automatically begs the question what they were doing there as they don't live there.

Yeh, I would think that to be convincing for a jury it would need to be either the perpetrators blood, or if not then some DNA like skin, or spit/sweat with cells found within Sophie's blood, on her person or on one of the weapons. It has to beat reasonable doubt. If your DNA is on the stone/block used to murder her, and you can't account for your whereabouts, then I'd be pretty nervous in front of a jury.

If it was a total unknown with no reason to have ever been there, the bar would be much lower of course. Just demonstrating they were in the vicinity at all would prob be enough.

Two additional boundary through access ways. I think the orange circle at some point was marked out with trees, it perhaps had previously been open, with access I would think to Alfie's field?

The blue circle shows another gate opposite the pump house area which I presume gave access to the lower fields (Hellen's I would think, but perhaps Alfie could use it too). Perhaps it was installed later by her son, or Finbar

I don't know when these photos were taken but they're from the koude kaas website probably a few years later I would think.

Those photos would be from some time after the murder alright, you can see the shed has been re-roofed and the guttering on the house has been changed. The shed and part of what was Alfie's field at the time of the murder changed hands and now belong to Pierre-Louis' (around 2016 I think). The blue gate is interesting, it certainly wasn't there at the time of the murder, it's into Hellen's land. Here's a still from a much later video of Sophie's gate and you can see silage (probably Hellen's) stored on Sophie's/Pierre-louis' lawn.

It's not unusual for for locals to take advantage of holiday property when vacant.

Thanks, I also found this image on the website, and I can't figure out what it is depicting, or its importance. It looks like an older gate refashioned as a fence of some sort? Is this close to where she was found?

Could someone have been there trying to steal the pump from the pumphouse and were interrupted? That might explain why some blocks had been moved.

Maybe it was, who knows at this stage.

I hope they are getting “stonewalled”- the first priority is for the Gardai to do their job which is to investigate and compile evidence and present their file on an organised and logical manner to the DPP for comment and direction - it’s not their job to start sending on their evidence and comments to anyone external to this investigation - they can certainly be polite and state investigations are ongoing but that should be all they’re saying at this stage until their investigation fully concludes

The Irish government should not in any way get involved at this particular stage - it’s still an active investigation - last thing it needs is government interference given the sh1t show it’s been for the last 27 years

Makes sense.

How about Finbar Hellens? Did he give a DNA sample? Was he asked? Did he refuse?

It is unclear how many individuals were initially asked for samples. Of those who were sampled ten people's hair samples were sent for analysis. Other than Bailey and Thomas no blood samples were sent for analysis. As the only hair recovered was Sophie's own nothing was ever done with any of the hair samples.

"Imo this would indicate pretty strongly that Bolger wasn't involved in the murder."

It was a cut hair sample, so afaik not good for DNA. (Stand to be corrected on this)

Leo and Sally Bolger had been coming and going around the locale for some time to tend their horses, so traces, fingermarks, footprints etc would be all over the place.

Finbarr Hellen iirc was surprised Sophie didnt say hello as he was passing the cottage.

A curious point. May not have meant she was avoiding him but some of her behaviour that trip was atypical.

Maybe Sohphie was distracted with something, or on the phone with somebody? Apparently she gotten on well with both the Hellens, Finbar and Josie.

However this is what I've found on Finbar:

In 1972, one Finbar Hellen and his father Francis Hellen were summoned for assault and conduct likely to lead to a breach in the peace in a case heard in Schull Court before Justice William F O’Connell.  Finbar Hellen was accused of assaulting Joseph O’Connell, Dunmanus, by driving a bicycle at him on 14 October 1971.  ‘The father said he had hunted the other woman out of the land which witness had the grazing of’ and they would hunt O’Connell and the owner out too.  Justice O’Connell remarked, ‘The Irish people are inclined to become very emotionally concerned about land … one would have to go back in history to find the source of these disputes’ (Southern Star, 11 March 1972, ‘Farmer-Neighbours Must Resolve Their Differences’).  In 1973 Francis Hellen, Dunmanus East, was awarded £50 damages against Michael Goggin of Gloun, Schull for trespass of cattle on Hellen’s land entered via land sold by Goggin to a Dutchman (Southern Star, 7 April 1973).  Finbar Hellen was described as ‘a hot and impetuous person’ who ‘seems to think that anything he says whether true or false will be believed by the court’ in a case heard at Schull Court in December 1975 where he was accused of assaulting Michael Goggin (who lived with his uncle, John O’Driscoll at Dunmanus, Toormore) ‘by striking him with his fist and kicking him’ and causing malicious damage to his car.  The dispute was over a bullock.  John O’Driscoll described Francis and Finbarr Hellen as ‘two lunatics’ when he was confronted by them.  He said, ‘Finbarr’s eyes were like two poles of fire in his head and there was frath (sic) coming from Francis’s mouth … Finbarr said he would kill me and that Goggin would be killed for sure’ (Southern Star, 27 December 1975).  Justice M J O’Hara described O’Driscoll’s language as ‘real Sean O’Casey.’  In Co Kerry it might be described as ‘real John B Keane.’

This is Finbar's account of that day. He is logged in at 12.35 which would put Josie's arrival at around midday. Which ties in with the time she said she was supposed to meet Sophie.

with modern techniques you can, but definitely not back in the day.

Agreed, the "forensic evidence" that was lost was not any DNA that might be present - but;

Shirley's car driving down the lane after the body was discovered, (bringing bags of rubbish to the dump) may have obliterated the faint tyre marks that were present.

Likewise, footprints around the area.

Even that tarp that was used to cover the deceased lady may have HAD substances on it, or may have rubbed against the body and damaged whatever was there.

And finally, the body temperature drop post mortem must have been accelerated by the cold temperatures of the December night, making it much harder to determine the time of death.

exactly this