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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Nobody gets up in mid winter and pulls on a pair of lace up boots without first putting on some socks, unless it was in haste. This wouldn`t in itself rule out an 8 or 9 AM time of death but it does rule out the stomach contents as being specifically a breakfast meal. If your plan was to get up and amble about and have some breakfast, then you`d put on some socks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    I believe I read somewhere in the thread that Sophie was an early riser. What time counts as "early rising"?

    Apparently, too, she liked these comfortable shoes and used them as "indoor shoes" on the cold tiled floor of the cottage; you wouldn't necessarily use socks in that context, though you might venture outdoors - though not far - since she was in her night clothes and dressing-gown anyway.

    If she got up before 7 and ate something before 7.30, and then noticed someone down at the gate before 8 am, it might have already been early daylight enough to see by; suppose the attack took place at 8 am. would the body have been "still warm" by 11 o clock, three hours later?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,170 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    That would be a high risk strategy - checking to see if there were potential witnesses and risk being apprehended. The killer knew Sophie was alone that night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    Interesting, so in this case it would appear that everyone was directed to not touch the body, since we have evidence that at least one person was told specifically not to, and nobody else actually did touch her. In addition they didn't follow the direction of the pathologist either…..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The killer was either local to know, or if not was informed ( possibly via the husband ) that Sophie was alone that night. The killer might also have known that the Richardsons weren't there as well, maybe via a casual question by the husband on the phone on the matter or state of the neighbourhood.

    Guessing that the murder took place in darkness or semi darkness, I doubt the act of killing would have been seen, not from a distance to Alfie and Shirley's house. There are no street lamps as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    Again, there is nothing stating that there was "irrelevant" DNA. This means there was no DNA contamination. Which means your claim that somebody got away with it because of DNA contamination is not likely.

    Post edited by Baz Richardson on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭csirl


    Do we know if it is the killer who removed the block and that it was done the night of the incident?

    Alternatively, someone else could have done it beforehand as, fot example, they needed something to prop open the gate. Block may have already been on the ground in the vicinity the night of the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    As far as I know the cavity block was never used to prop open the gate.

    I always understood that the killer dislodged the cavity block only by force, damaging the pump house and using it for killing Sophie.

    One direction of collecting or looking for DNA would have been around the pumphouse or the roof of the pumphouse as it's possible that the killer left DNA there? Whether that was done or not, I don't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭tibruit


    The DPP cherry picks his way through the evidence to try to undermine the Garda case. Why accept Jules`s version of the breakfast time (9 AM), but not Bailey`s (11 AM) and yet be happy to accept Bailey`s timelines when they were contradicted by multiple witnesses? You couldn`t make it up. Then he comes up with a scenario to undermine, that basically sees Bailey returning to the scene to take photos before 9 AM. What a load of nonsense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭tibruit


    The good thing now is that people can see Gilligan being interviewed in episode two of the Netflix doc and make up their own minds as to whether he is being truthful or not. The fire was "fresh". He found remnants of "boot", "coat", "jeans". Jules knew nothing about a Christmas fire. Is she lying? Bailey…"a hoarder who never got rid of anything."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,295 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Does the Netflix doc include his sworn statement too?

    How can you make an assessment of whether someone is truthful or not, when they are concealing that what they are saying now is different to what they put down in their official sworn statement as a Garda officer.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    I know you've mentioned this a few times throughout the threads going back a while and it was your biggest issue with a morning murder, and tbh I was under the same impression re the socks. However, I was reviewing the post-mortem again and came across the following from Harbison:

    The clothing

    -The clothing on the deceased comprised:

    • A short cotton top with elbow length sleeves,
    • A pair of cotton, "Long John" style underpants,
    • Shoes of heavy sole type, almost small boots, and socks.

    Now I'm wondering where we got this impression of no socks, because it seems to be pretty prevalent on here, is there other evidence that says she wasn't wearing any.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 335 ✭✭bjsc


    The boots she was wearing had integrated boot toppers. So no actual socks but the make up of the boots could give the impression of socks until they were removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    Ok thanks, I understand.

    I assume that the sock-like material actually provided a comfort as if wearing a sock. i.e. the boot style may have been chosen by Sophie as it can negate the need to wear socks. Perhaps she may never have worn socks with these boots when popping outside for a few minutes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Later in the report, once he had removed the boots in Cork, he says;

    "These were indeed boots with a coarse woven sock like material integrally sewn into the neck of the boot and not true socks "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,170 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Whatever about Dwyer,for me everything Gilligan recounted in the documentary had a ring of truth about it. He never states that he believes Bailey was the killer - which Dwyer did more or less - but the implication in his tone was clear. He believes Bailey destroyed bloodstained clothing by incineration. Ian may have been a hoarder but not when it came to incriminating evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 936 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Christmas is generally a busy time for most people, last minute gifts, preparations, plan the dinner etc…

    It's an odd time to fly over to Ireland (to the back end of nowhere), to check your water pipes.. Could'nt it wait till after Christmas??

    Sophie had multiple return dates, she wasn't settled on an exact return date at the time of her death. (Why not?)

    What was so important to her to make such a journey… (I don't but the locks & pipes nonsense)

    She asked anybody & everybody to chaperone her to West Cork, being Christmas, there was no takers.

    On the day before her murder, did she not suffer a 'panic attack' of some description while out walking?

    Was her purpose visiting Ireland to meet somebody?

    She was a Mother with a large Family - Christmas was literally around the corner, and she felt compelled to fly to Ireland in the height of winter to oversee a plumber..?? And couldn't commit to a return flight during the run up to Christmas day…??

    Was she expecting a 'difficult' visitor that night? Was that the purpose of her visit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭tibruit


    It`s not my biggest issue with a morning murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Going back to the DNA testing. The DNA profile of an unknown male was detected on one of her boots and a large number of briar cuttings were taken at the time. Some were tested but only Sohpies blood/DNA was found. Were the other cuttings tested since are they still in existance?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Thespoofer


    After reading this post , especially the part about " why Sophie would make the trip at that time of year " I had a suspicion and then googled was she pregnant and low and behold its states she was in the early stages of pregnancy.

    I must be the only person who didn't know this point ( maybe forgot ) but if true then there's your answer. And possibly also the reason she was murdered.

    Does anyone know if this is true ? ( pregnancy)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    No; the autopsy report describes the uterus as normal; and as a forensic pathologist he definitely would have looked for signs of pregnancy, and would certainly have mentioned such if it were found.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Thespoofer


    Thanks. I gave a quick goggle and a couple of headlines stated she was ( obv.incorrectly )



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    No, she certainly was not pregnant. It has been speculated a lot, but there is absolutely no evidence for this.

    If she was expecting to meet somebody in Ireland, why ask somebody from France to go along with her? I don't think she would have asked, if she wanted to meet somebody in Ireland in a dicreet way.

    Otherwise you're correct about the trip just before Christmas. However there could have been a simple reason, like a very busy week or months ahead in her job just after Christmas. It could also have been that she wanted to be somewhere she liked so desperately, somewhere nice, and that was her cottage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It was reported that she did ask several people to come along with her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes,

    or it could have been that she felt she needed to get away from France for a while………



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This is true, but it still doesn't mean she was pregnant. Again there was no evidence for pregnancy.

    I presume it had largely to do with the fact that she wasn't happy in her marriage and didn't always enjoy working in an environment where she was often seen in public. Apparently she liked the isolation and the wilderness and remoteness. That's what I've read a lot here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    But she had never come alone before……………



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    I thought that the gardai accepted Jules' time for breakfast, is that correct? I think the DPP agrees with them here or am I missing something



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    No. Not Pregnant just that she was looking for a companion but none were willing to come at that time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Zola1000


    Hi. Just a question for anyone here. I've watched both documentaries again for netflix and sky. I always was of the thinking that Sophie wouldn't have frequented any of bars in schull or certainly any of the ones bailey might be in regularly. But former publican of courtyard said Sophie was often in..and by herself or whatever..but just felt that was certainly new to me..and if bailey definitely would have seen her more often that not if she was in there odd times..just a possibility maybe, as publican mentioned bailey was often in..and wouldnt care much if he never came in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Sure, if she went into a pub in Schull, then anyone who frequented that pub might have seen her there, obviously.

    Can we suspect them all of murdering her on the strength of that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    I'm not sure if you're Irish but pubs in rural areas are a pretty common place for people to go even just to read books/newspapers, have lunch, tea etc. alone or with others, not just for drinking and socialising. Bailey I imagine used to frequent many of the different bars for different reasons, he was into reading poetry etc. Since they were in the same area when Sophie was in town, they most probably crossed paths (literally I mean) at some point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,295 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not necessarily. Did he clarify when Sophie would be in?

    Weekend of the murder Sophie visited the Courtyard late afternoon / early evening for tea and scone iirc. Bailey seems more sort to arrive for the night until closing.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Zola1000


    Thanks for that. No I get totally what you mean. I'm Irish for sure..I was more thinking maybe they were never in same type areas..at one time on few occasions

    yes that's true . no clarification of what times I guess she would be in..but yes I'm sure IB was more of night time. I see..I didn't realise that was same bar the courtyard she had scones and tea on that late afternoon.

    I'm more or less trying see if bars ever crowed and they started conversation..but unlikely given Sophie's more normal lifestyle and wouldn't be late night in them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    Certainly there were a few different pubs in Goleen, Schull etc. and Sophie seemed to travel the area quite a bit too, she frequented Crookhaven etc. but I don't think there was a huge range of options, of places to go. I'd say it was more a case that even though she wasn't there frequently, when she was there they perhaps visited some of the same locations, shops, pubs etc. perhaps even at around the same time. Bailey though seemed to be more of a night owl, and Sophie more of an early bird from what I've seen.



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