Transport Aircraft

banie01 · 22-06-2020 1:28pm

Some of the 767s out there being retired already being snapped up for conversion.

Sooner our Govt makes a call on this the better IMO.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/dhl-orders-freighter-conversion-of-767s/138935.article

California Dreamer · 22-06-2020 4:43pm

banie01 wrote: »

Sooner our Govt makes a call on this the better IMO.

When has our or any government made a hasty decision that helps anybody but themselves?

What will happen is someone will think this is a good idea. Then it will go to various meetings and then by the time the global aircraft sales have recovered THEN they will order something and pay top dollar for it! :eek::eek:

Larbre34 · 22-06-2020 5:34pm

We have no earthly need for a 767-300ER, converted or otherwise.

I'm becoming more convinced that a simple approach should be made to Aer Lingus, or even thrown open for expressions of interest to other EU based carriers and lessors, to wet lease a medium size twinjet with partial conversion for freight hard points, to be painted in a 'Republic of Ireland' scheme. A320/321, 737-800, 757, could be based at Cork or Shannon where hangar capacity exists.

Something like 8 VIP seats, 120 standard economy and the rest of the cabin in tether points would be more than sufficient.

banie01 · 22-06-2020 5:38pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

We have no earthly need for a 767-300ER, converted or otherwise.

I'm becoming more convinced that a simple approach should be made to Aer Lingus, or even thrown open for expressions of interest to other EU based carriers and lessors, to wet lease a medium size twinjet with partial conversion for freight hard points, to be painted in a 'Republic of Ireland' scheme. A320/321, 737-800, 757, could be based at Cork or Shannon where hangar capacity exists.

Something like 8 VIP seats, 120 standard economy and the rest of the cabin in tether points would be more than sufficient.

I'd hazars a guess(repeat one actually) that we will end up with a late series 737 converted for Combi work and that will perfectly meet our needs.

My post was more intended to illustrate that if we (Ireland) want to add this capability we need to be moving on securing the airframe soon as most of the Airframes worth converting are already being looked at by freigh operators.

donvito99 · 22-06-2020 8:58pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

We have no earthly need for a 767-300ER, converted or otherwise.

I'm becoming more convinced that a simple approach should be made to Aer Lingus, or even thrown open for expressions of interest to other EU based carriers and lessors, to wet lease a medium size twinjet with partial conversion for freight hard points, to be painted in a 'Republic of Ireland' scheme. A320/321, 737-800, 757, could be based at Cork or Shannon where hangar capacity exists.

Something like 8 VIP seats, 120 standard economy and the rest of the cabin in tether points would be more than sufficient.

There's unlikely to be a great deal of a difference in the overall cost between a 767 and 737. A 767 would seem to be more useful to us than a 737 in terms of range and payload. Is 120 seats sufficient/efficient when it comes to rotating Inf Groups in and out of Beirut? That's something the aircraft is certain to do 4 times a year at least.

Larbre34 · 22-06-2020 11:58pm

I'd suggest that scheduled troop rotations for full battalions would still be done by charters by open procurement, such are the numbers and gear. A government plane could carry out unscheduled retrieval in circumstances like those we have seen lately, but I would see its routine passenger carrying roles as being more around VIP and government delegation travel, diplomatic requirements, citizen support overseas, air ambulance, cultural and international relations work, humanitarian transport etc

And there is a significant cost difference between acquisition and maintenace of a 76 and a 73 of any age.

PS I see the German Govt have taken delivery of the first of 2 ACJ 350-900s, the absolute backstards, but of more relevance they also repurposed a couple of ex-Lufthansa A321s last year, to do exactly the sort of work we need...

California Dreamer · 23-06-2020 6:38am

We can only hope that with Ireland becoming members of the UN security council a transport aircraft for secure travel is procured.

Then again we will have the usual Boyd-Barrett whingers saying how much that money could cure homelessness!!!!

roadmaster · 19-08-2020 12:17pm

if ever there was a need for proper transport aircraft in the air corps, the photos they posted of a casa doing runs to beruit with pallets stuffed in against the surveillance equipment proved it . Such a waste of an aircraft needed on home shores. If we had a proper transport aircraft this would not happen.

sparky42 · 19-08-2020 1:10pm

roadmaster wrote: »

if ever there was a need for proper transport aircraft in the air corps, the photos they posted of a casa doing runs to beruit with pallets stuffed in against the surveillance equipment proved it . Such a waste of an aircraft needed on home shores. If we had a proper transport aircraft this would not happen.

Indeed, however Don Lavery is tweeting today that the DOD has told him that no such aircraft is to be purchased.

Leonidas BL · 19-08-2020 1:25pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Indeed, however Don Lavery is tweeting today that the DOD has told him that no such aircraft is to be purchased.

Thats very sad.

I think the best thing now might be to re-purpose the 235's as light transports when the 295's arrive. With the surveillance equipment removed as roadmaster pointed out, it might work better.

roadmaster · 19-08-2020 1:30pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Thats very sad.

I think the best thing now might be to re-purpose the 235's as light transports when the 295's arrive. With the surveillance equipment removed as roadmaster pointed out, it might work better.

If the 235's have life left in them after the 295's arrive even its only for a few years it could be used as a wedge to say next up to replace our transport aircraft

sparky42 · 19-08-2020 2:10pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If the 235's have life left in them after the 295's arrive even its only for a few years it could be used as a wedge to say next up to replace our transport aircraft

Given their high hours for their type already, I wonder what the service rate would be by that point? Could the AC end up keeping them and due to high repairs/low operational rate have the DOD use them as a reason why the AC shouldn't have transport aircraft?

California Dreamer · 20-08-2020 6:17am

sparky42 wrote: »

Given their high hours for their type already, I wonder what the service rate would be by that point? Could the AC end up keeping them and due to high repairs/low operational rate have the DOD use them as a reason why the AC shouldn't have transport aircraft?

They will sell them for 10k each and then someone will give them a run over with a car vac, put a new freshener in the flight deck and sell them for €5m each a la GIV!!!

Larbre34 · 20-08-2020 3:33pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Indeed, however Don Lavery is tweeting today that the DOD has told him that no such aircraft is to be purchased.

In fairness to Don's good coverage, the message really is that the DoD have not received any Government instruction to explore the option and vary the equipment development plan in response prevailing situations. If it is to happen, its not for the DoD to say, its for Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney and whomever else is in agreement to table it at cabinet at get it moving.

As Ruairí Quinn famously said when civil servants hummed and hawwed at the Bruton government's instruction to legislate and establish the CAB, "you don't seem to understand, the ****ing decision has been made"

Manic Moran · 22-08-2020 2:51pm

Is there the hangar space to keep the 235s around?

roadmaster · 22-08-2020 3:28pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there the hangar space to keep the 235s around?

If there's not i am sure they could find somewhere in Shannon, Kerry or cork

sparky42 · 22-08-2020 4:53pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If there's not i am sure they could find somewhere in Shannon, Kerry or cork

Or alternatively stick the 295's out to Shannon, Kerry or Galway, given as MPA's that would be the primary operational area?

roadmaster · 22-08-2020 5:54pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Or alternatively stick the 295's out to Shannon, Kerry or Galway, given as MPA's that would be the primary operational area?

Or move all fixed wing assets to Shannon, That would solve the shortage in air traffic control and rescue services and improve availability

sparky42 · 22-08-2020 6:21pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Or move all fixed wing assets to Shannon, That would solve the shortage in air traffic control and rescue services and improve availability

And stick the Government Jet in Dublin Airport?

Larbre34 · 23-08-2020 4:55pm

Ive said that before on these pages, especially if fast jets are ultimately required. Close the Don, move the primary Air Corps station to the Shannon Airport complex and have a small facility for VIP transport and Air Ambulance transfer points etc at either Dublin or even Weston.

It would make sense for a few reasons to move to Shannon, investment and spending power in the local area, cost of living for AC personnel, strategic location for air coverage, realising the value of the Don location for reinvestment in the DF.

Psychlops · 23-08-2020 5:40pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there the hangar space to keep the 235s around?

Not a hope, Bal is unfit for purpose. Perhaps just keep them outside like a regular airliner is kept.

roadmaster · 01-09-2020 11:50am

With Aer Lingus talks about leaving Shannon getting some traction , someone in government might actually think about moving the air corps to Shannon

jonnybigwallet · 01-09-2020 12:34pm

Interesting idea. I think have both is a good idea. Bal is useful for the defence of the capital and support in the glen of immal and the curragh.

Psychlops · 01-09-2020 7:48pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting idea. I think have both is a good idea. Bal is useful for the defence of the capital and support in the glen of immal and the curragh.

Defence of the Capital...what are you smoking? The Air Corps could stop a few Cessna Aircraft & nothing more. Jesus.

Leonidas BL · 01-09-2020 8:14pm

Psychlops wrote: »

The Air Corps could stop a few Cessna Aircraft & nothing more..

Actually they couldn't even do that!

Heraldoffreeent · 01-09-2020 9:59pm

:):):):):):):):):):):):)

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting idea. I think have both is a good idea. Bal is useful for the defence of the capital and support in the glen of immal and the curragh.

Larbre34 · 01-09-2020 10:36pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting idea. I think have both is a good idea. Bal is useful for the defence of the capital and support in the glen of immal and the curragh.

Jesus suffering christ.

Manic Moran · 09-09-2020 2:59pm

The last point is worth considering. If the Glen and Curragh are the major training areas, then proximity for air lift or air fires training would make a lot of sense. That said, I'm not sure how much longer it takes to get there from Shannon vice Bal.

sparky42 · 09-09-2020 4:04pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

The last point is worth considering. If the Glen and Curragh are the major training areas, then proximity for air lift or air fires training would make a lot of sense. That said, I'm not sure how much longer it takes to get there from Shannon vice Bal.

Given one of the 139s spends it's time in Athlone why not examine having them base out of the Curragh and Glen as needed? Instead of keeping a base in the Capital with all the costs involved if the rest had moved to Shannon?

jonnybigwallet · 09-09-2020 6:00pm

Looks like a lot of spare slots coming available in Shannon on foot of Aer Lingus cutting services to USA. Rumour has it they are going to close their bases there and in Cork altogether. Government aint going to be too popular with the local citizens!

California Dreamer · 07-10-2020 7:45am

Jordan aviation A330 brought Irish troops home yesterday.

Would there not be a bit of joined up writing in government and they 'suggest' that Aer Lingus operating those transfers after all they have spare aircraft sitting on the ground.

roundymac · 07-10-2020 9:37am

Its the UN who organise these flights (AFAIA), I do know that there is a problem with EI doing these flights.

Larbre34 · 07-10-2020 1:52pm

To my knowledge its a mix. The UN organise half and the Dept of Defence put out tenders every so often for charters for the half of the flights they pay for.

I imagine Aer Lingus could put in a price if they wanted, but they aren't that sort of operator.

California Dreamer · 07-10-2020 2:28pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

To my knowledge its a mix. The UN organise half and the Dept of Defence put out tenders every so often for charters for the half of the flights they pay for.

I imagine Aer Lingus could put in a price if they wanted, but they aren't that sort of operator.

If I lost 80% of my income I would be any type of operator you want me to be!!!!

;);)

roadmaster · 07-10-2020 5:10pm

I think a lot airlines will only go in to safe airports as such. There is probably insurance issues as well. In truth we should be trying to pick up an aircraft like that on cheap and convert it for cargo and passengers

California Dreamer · 07-10-2020 8:06pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I think a lot airlines will only go in to safe airports as such. There is probably insurance issues as well. In truth we should be trying to pick up an aircraft like that on cheap and convert it for cargo and passengers

Simple risk assessment on any new airport. The exact same would have been done for the China run with the Russian overfly rights etc.

Larbre34 · 07-10-2020 10:43pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

If I lost 80% of my income I would be any type of operator you want me to be!!!! ;);)

I know yeah, but I'd say its probably cheaper to mothball fleet and furlough staff and reduce operations to the still popular routes rather than trying to undercut yellow pack charter specialists for an occasional bit of work with very little margin.

jonnybigwallet · 18-11-2020 10:58am

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/embraer-hungary-sign-contract-for-two-kc-390-airlifters/141167.article

Larbre34 · 19-11-2020 9:16pm

The KC390 is a nice aircraft, but the delivery time is crazy and personally I have an aversion to being an early adopter of military technology.

Ireland would still be better off buying a used C-130 on the European or North American market.

In other news, apropos of last months conversation, I see a Shamrock 330 went on a UN troop rotation charter yesterday. Good to see it.

Leonidas BL · 22-11-2020 12:33pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Agreed on the C130 front, problem is there are no J models readily available. Those that come up, are quickly snapped up by others. Plenty of H going cheap though. Problem is they have a 4 person flight deck, and we don't train flight engineers, and we have no aircraft that require one. Most civvy pilots who trained with this setup retired 10-15 years ago. It's old tech. Fine when you also operate large fleets of 1950s era bombers and tankers, so this crew has somewhere else to go. Upgrading to J standard is cost prohibitive, when you consider the hours already on the airframe.
Our best option is to get in on the C17 operated by SAC.

What about an A400M?

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 2:25pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Have we, as a nation, won Euromillions? It's a huge cost for something that is still going through teething problems.

You never know, maybe if the German's are still trying to get rid of some of their order they might want to flog them off cheap?:p

Leonidas BL · 22-11-2020 7:12pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Have we, as a nation, won Euromillions? It's a huge cost for something that is still going through teething problems.

Luxembourg managed to buy one, and they barely have enough space to land it

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 8:06pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

You get a lot of aircraft for €175m. The two casa C295 are costing us €221.6m!

That's for the full life costs though isn't it?

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 8:16pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

You get a lot of aircraft for €175m. The two casa C295 are costing us €221.6m!

I'm guessing it's not really wanted by the DoD , otherwise there'd be a third casa on the way ,

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 8:17pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm guessing it's not really wanted by the DoD , otherwise there'd be a third casa on the way ,

It's the DOD, they'd prefer if the DF didn't get anything.

Psychlops · 22-11-2020 8:54pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/embraer-hungary-sign-contract-for-two-kc-390-airlifters/141167.article

No no no, the IAC has long enough been the "launch customer" or "guinea pig", we need something tried, proven & tested, like NATO's C17 in Hungary that Nations are using.

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 10:35pm

Psychlops wrote: »

No no no, the IAC has long enough been the "launch customer" or "guinea pig", we need something tried, proven & tested, like NATO's C17 in Hungary that Nations are using.

So very true, what we should be doing is picking one friendly nation (politically perhaps stick within Europe) and leverage off of them, tbh I'd look at the French.

The K/C390 may very well be the all singing all dancing product that is claimed, but us being one of the lead customers is insane.

NewSigGuy · 23-11-2020 1:09pm

The AC has made the mistake in the past of not only buying the Mark One of something but also in a bespoke specification that no other customer replicated.
So I usually agree on not buying the Mark One of anything but in this case the argument is somewhat different

The KC-390 is built on many mature technologies, particularly around the engines and avionics.
The manufacturer is not a small bespoke aircraft company, they are an Airliner and Bizjet company with a proven track record in delivering products that meet the spec and have the support network already in place.
They will IMHO amass a large and varied customer base for this product.

The A400M also has many of these positive attributes but has had a particularly troubled certification and entry to service phase, but now appears to be maturing nicely.

Psychlops · 24-11-2020 8:22pm

But....There is always a but, for any of this to even happen there would need to be significant works done to Casement because as it stands it is not fit for any of the above.

roadmaster · 24-11-2020 9:24pm

Psychlops wrote: »

But....There is always a but, for any of this to even happen there would need to be significant works done to Casement because as it stands it is not fit for any of the above.

Thats easily solved with Air Station Shannon or if the healy raes had there way Air Station Kerry!

Transport Aircraft

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