Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

One tenant is leaving and landlord refuses assignment

2»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    Really more confused points?

    Bottom line here - you have no legal training (and certainly poor reading skills) and no one here is obliged to pander to your ego.

    For everyone else - here is the RTB lease template - but obtain legal advice as always before using. You may need a legal genius to overcome some of the terms in the lease/act. Apparently legal genius is best found here on boards.ie! For example, I learned today, pets are somehow relevant to licencees.

    https://www.rtb.ie/registration-and-compliance/beginning-a-tenancy/residential-tenancy-agreement-template

    Post edited by DFB-D on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Nothing confused at all. You are unable to support your propositions and resort to personal attack when confronted.

    You seem to be unable to appreciate a simple analogy.
    Here is another example of a missing item. There is no mention in that draft lease about complying with the House Rules in managed blocks. This is of the utmost importance in a lease.
    Leases are drafted by landlords. Telling any landlord to use a lease template drawn up by the RTB ( a notoriously anti-landlord body) is extremely rash.

    The lease which is drawn up should protect the landlord to the greatest extent not leave the landlord open to attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    Yes confused - you have added more criticial errors -

    1."the tenant is trading" - rent which qualifies for RAR is not trade income - never ever ever 😭

    2. You added lots more noise - it just really makes you look silly. Pets, overcrowding, house rules - no relevance to licencees. Pets can be fur babies but yet are not recognised as having the ability to contract 😂

    3. There's a hell of a lot more errors, mostly what you have misunderstood or are deliberately trying to annoy me by making comments, while true, are not made in response to comments I have made.

    Again, this is just treatment for your behaviour. My proposition is that you are incorrect on your original points and you have yet to provide backup to even get close to supporting your position.

    Anymore errors you want to add? To use my time more efficiently, I will only point out new errors to you from now on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    It is trading income. The fact that is exempt from tax is irrelevant. It must still be returned.

    Restricting licencees is allowable. I simply showed the weakness of your reliance on a standard RTB template to attempt to show otherwise.

    You haven't pointed out any errors. If I did make an error I doubt it is one you would be able to detect anyway.

    You keep claiming I am incorrect but are unable to substantiate any of your own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    Oh dear…please stop, this is far too pathetic 😂😂😂

    Trading income = case I or for completeness in the case of a profession case ii. Rental income which qualifies for RAR = case v. That's not up for dispute by anyone at this stage.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-04/04-08-01.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJs8_Vm_-IAxUrXUEAHUquAK8QFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22s51Tt6BIpn9M0ayT5AFQ



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    It gets better.
    You now google tax on rental income to try and score a point.
    A tenant can't charge a licencee rent as to do so would be sub-letting which requires the consent of the landlord and is not allowed by the Residential Tenancies Act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    "You have resorted to a personal attack. I will always admit it when I am wrong. Show me one instance where I did not admit I was wrong"

    Where is the admission you were wrong?

    Sub-letting = licence, you stated earlier it was sharing possession 😳



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I never sais sub-lettiong is a licence. It is anything but.
    A sub tenant is charged rent. A licencee is a paying guest. The money paid by a licencee is taxed as trading income, not rent.
    Get your facts straight.
    A person cannot live with a sub-tenant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    "A tenant can't charge a licencee rent as to do so would be sub-letting"

    Those are the words you used. That is a fact.

    Nope it's case V, are you smoking crack today? 😂



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Absolutely. It is not case 5. It is trading, same as Airbnb.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,609 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Is that the best you can do? At least you are consistent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Still making no sense. You are unable to support your assertions so just resort to insults.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    The support is there, you just don't understand it. I could explain it to you, but you would continue arguing like a d*ck, so you got the response you deserve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    More Trumpism. You have produced no support for anything and have resorted to personal attacks to distract from your lack of knowledge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    When you clean yourself up, you might note that all the assertions made by you are without support and that post you replied to was from Friday, not this week, did you lose a few days there?

    Revenue guide - Part 07-01-32

    Here you can use this to further confuse yourself - now do take care not to attempt to intersect the common language used therin with terminology used in other legislation - also please read it sober like a good man and hopefully we will see you posting in a more respectable manner going forward. I am not a social worker, but I am confident they probably have a steps programme for whatever your problems are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,429 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    guys? You know this isn’t messages? Everybody can read it.


    😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    All you have done is produced a Revenue guide without attempting to explain its relevance if any. Link dumping is not support.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    Oh dear 😬 Right must go, I don't want you developing feelings for me...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,005 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    It's unfortunate that RTB have so little information about licensees because it's 'outside their remit'. Available information is scarce, so renters have to keep asking questions to understand the legislation.

    IMO, all licensees are not the same and it's confusing because they all get lumped in together in discussions. There's

    1) the children and family members who are part of the tenant's household plus their visitors/occasional guests;

    2) replacements for departing tenants;

    3) additional long term house mates who pay the tenant, eg Rent a room;

    4) short term guests who pay the tenant, eg AirBnB type.

    It's fair enough that landlords should get written notice about others living in the dwelling, as they need to prevent overcrowding and comply with insurance. Notices about household members is straightforward, others are not so clear.

    I would like to know what part of the regulations gives tenants an automatic right to move a person into the dwelling and charge them rent. A licensee who pays the tenant to use a part, or the whole dwelling, is not the same as a member of a tenant's household.

    Assignments for the entire tenancy are fine with landlord's permission, but a licensee who replaces a departing multi-tenant, looks like an assignment of part of the lease. But that's not allowed per S38.4 and 5.

    Sub-letting for the entire tenancy needs permission, and the original tenant moves out. However, if a long-term licensee is sharing and pays rent to the tenant, it sounds like a sub-let of part of the dwelling, also not allowed under S32.2 and 3. Also, RaR is just a Revenue scheme, nothing to do with the RTA, so how can tenants rent out a part of their tenancy if a partial sub-let is not allowed by the RTA?

    When a tenant charges AirBnB guests to use a part or the whole of the dwelling for a short term, that also looks like a sub-let to me, and is not allowed.

    At different times I've read that tenants can have licensee, as and when they like, can charge room rent or BnB, make no returns to revenue for rental income, all without landlord permission.

    I've also read that landlords can't refuse to make a licensee a tenant. It would be interesting to know what legislation allows a landlord to change an existing lease and add on a new tenant simply because a licensee has six months occupancy and they request it? Surely the original joint tenants on the lease would have a veto - ie. they have a legal contract. If a landlord could do that, what's to stop any one of the joint tenants moving a licensee into the dwelling, and the licensee could then demand to become a tenant and added to the lease even if the other joint tenants disagree. That doesn't sound right, otherwise why would anyone sign a joint lease in the first place if that could be a possible outcome.

    I've also read that licensees need landlord permission, whether they pay rent or not. That makes sense as tenants would be protected from having changes imposed on them by licensees that they may not have forseen.

    It would be great if someone with legal expertise could give a user friendly explanation about this area of renting. It sounds fairly simple where the tenancy is one family household, but I know plenty of joint tenants who would like clear information. It seems crazy that the RTA is 20 years old and there are still questions about licensees, especially in house-share which are very common now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    I wouldn't tend to overthink this.

    Licences in property are just "permission to use" but without rights which can be exercised against their landlord (tenant). So a licencee would not arise where "part of the tenancy is assigned". In terms of the RTA - Assignment probably means the whole lease, i.e. The original tenants step away. Sublet means the tenant moves out resulting in a tenancy.

    Can a licencee become a tenant against the original tenants wishes - the tenant can terminate the licence, hence no right of tenancy. If the tenant does not terminate, the licencee can request and the landlord must not deny unreasonably - but the tenants wishes are probably a reasonable reason to deny.

    RAR and the RTA are not linked in anyway, you might see similarity, but RAR is simply a relief which can be claimed on case V income. Revenue have gone to great pains to distinguish short term rentals from longer term rentals, the former coming under case IV, hence no relief under RAR is available.

    You can read this carefully:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.ipa.ie/_fileupload/admin/6.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj5jbzTtqCJAxUvXUEAHXcHENQQFnoECBYQBg&usg=AOvVaw24bxBD-l_1jd84P-yaCcjF



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    This is the crux of the problem for a tenant. If he charges rent he is sub-letting a part of the property and in breach of the tenancy and can be terminated for breach of conditions.
    If he doesn't charge rent and charges a lodging fee, he is carrying on a business which may also be a breach of his tenancy agreement. If the letting by the tenant causes any difficulty for the landlords insurance, that is also a breach of the tenancy conditions.
    An owner occupier who takes in a lodger doesn't have to worry about it.

    Tenants do not have an automatic right to move licencees in, particularly if they are intending to charge them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭DFB-D


    https://ipoa.ie/difference-between-subletting-an-assignment-and-a-licensee/

    "Licensing arrangements in private rented accommodation are often confused with sub-lettings and assignments"

    "The main difference is that when a tenant assigns or sublets the rental accommodation, they no longer live in it. However, if a tenant takes in a licensee, the licensee shares the accommodation with the tenant."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer




Advertisement