EU to impose multibillion-euro tariffs on Chinese electric cars (thread bans see post #1)

I doubt if China will retaliate with their own tariffs. I get a feel that China operates differently to the West and it's, lets call it "Trumpian" way of reacting to adversities - you know, emotional, populist, us vs them and "in your face because I am the man" type approach. The fact that China can respond in a cold and non-populist way, is probably a "benefit" of their monopolistic one-party system perhaps? They probably will quietly get back to work, plough more funds into building even more factories in Europe, learn and improve from the process and eventually own the entire motor industry anyway.

or maybe just start with tarrifs on small things like brandy and dairy to show the EU that two can play at that game

China has imposed taxes on imports of European brandy in a move that France has said is retaliation for recent big tariffs the EU announced on Chinese electric vehicles.

The European Commission said it would challenge China's tax at the World Trade Organization (WTO), calling it an "abuse" of trade defence measures.

But China said the move was an "anti-dumping" measure that would protect its domestic producers.

French brandy producers said the duties, which will hit big brands including Hennessy and Remy Martin, would be "catastrophic" for the industry.

The Irish dairy industry is set to be caught in a brewing trade row between the European Union and China. Chinese authorities announced overnight that they have have opened an anti-subsidy investigation into imported dairy products from the EU. The move appears to be a tit-for-tat response to a move by the EU to restrict electric vehicles from China.

Apparently Ireland and France were 2 countries that backed the EU tarrifs. You reap what you sew I guess

Not sure why we voted for it, we have no national car manufacturer and a depressing figure in EV sales

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41490794.html

Dunno its hard to believe .. the farming lobby would have a lot more pull and a lot more to lose. Smacks of quid pro quo with other EU countries favours on other voting issues.

any chance of these getting delayed?

you are correct here and the only things held in bond are ones where duty definitely applies. Where, like cars, there was no prior duty, they were simply imported and held for eventual sale. Plenty of reports of the stocks which are held in EU which are unsold.

Private interests over public good... Sounds about right sadly

You replied to a post specifically referencing the model 3.

I don't care about other makes. I was making the point specifically in relation to model 3's which you responded to. Tesla don't stockpile cars, they literally build the M3 in China, stick them on a ship and enroute allocate to buyers. What MG or BYD I couldn't care less as my point fixated on one particular model of car.

…and if there was a stockpile it's only a matter of time before the stockpile is gone. These tariffs will be in place for a minimum of 5 years.

Controversial!

I wonder if this approach to protecting the EU industry is a bit short-sighted. By artificially propping the sector, this will slow down innovation as companies who should be failing are held up. This in the long-term will set us even further back than we are now. Closing the EU for trade is not a good idea especially given the current socioeconomic consequences of an aging population.

"but not at the expense of the consumer and the "climate"

'no VAT, no tariffs, increased subsidies'. How do you propose that member states fund this central fund? Tax the Billionaires and mega wealthy? I'm all for it.

irrespective of how its paid for, the alternative of full on trade war with China could cost more.

The only reason China's car industry has exploded is thanks to IP theft and the ease of manufacturing EV's compared to ICE. If you manufacture parts in China, have assembly lines there, your plans, products, and processes will be copied. That's just how it is. The laws we enjoy in developed western countries to protect investment do not apply in China.

Industrial espionage goes on everywhere, you can be guaranteed everyone will be copying Chinese methods of manufacturing EVs if theres a buck in it.

and the ease of manufacturing EV's compared to ICE.

The ease ?? Why cant Europe / USA just copy them so.. the Chinese sunk quarter of trillion dollars in to build up their EV industry while the 'Western automakers and governments have dilly dallied'. China played the long game while most western companies cant see past thier next earnings report - just ask Herbert Deiss.

The narrative of painting China as the evil enemy will gather speed while Europe panders to the US, as Kissinger said "it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." The USA just passed a $1.6 billion bill to deliver anti-China propaganda overseas .. be carefull what you read.

I don't think anybody would disagree with you but I'm not sure we should be trying to antagonize China either. There's already import duties on all products from China, there's no justifiable reason to add more tariffs specifically to electric vehicles in the middle of a climate crisis

Take MG for example, there's more tax on an MG3 Hybrid-Petrol or a HS PHEV-Petrol than there is to a ZS, 4 or 5 despite them being miles better for the environment

'no VAT, no tariffs, increased subsidies'. How do you propose that member states fund this central fund? Tax the Billionaires and mega wealthy? I'm all for it.

I think this answer is staring us in the face on this one, EU nations will likely get a haul from these new duties. I presume the member states are free to spend the money as they please? Member states should be forced to subsidise EVs with this windfall

Considering China is talking about similar measures against Ireland, Spain and France with taxes on subsidised milk, chorizo and cognac I'd say antagonising China might be the result even if it wasn't the intention

Interestingly China has already had an investigation against French cognac, found that it was state subsidised in the same way EVs were in China but decided not to impose tarrifs at the time. We will see how much that changes

https://www.voanews.com/a/europe-braces-for-chinese-retaliation-over-ev-import-tariffs-/7813804.html

Fair comment, but there is state support and then STATE SUPPORT.

A quick look around chez moi and I see a heck of a lot of things that say Made in China. I'm sure it's true for anywhere in the EU. Not sure who would really lose out long term in a trade war. I suppose China might not care anyway. They not doubt get plenty of revenue from their exports to Russia, North Korea and their other friends in Iran and elsewhere.

Back to my original point, China has never been a friend to Ireland the way America has and continues to be to this day.

All EVs imported from midnight tonight is my understanding and the oil industry is delighted as you can imagine

Rates are

• BYD 17%
• Geely 18.8%
• SIAC (MG and Maxus) 35.3%
• Tesla 7.8%
• Others, including European makes manufacturing in China, 20.7%

The above is not inclusive of the 10% duty that already applies to all cars, this is only the increase

I'm all for electrification, but what other options should Europe deploy to combat cheaper Chinese cars? Quality/tech isn't really a selling point for European manufacturers anymore because the Chinese have caught up, or surpassed. European manufacturers can't compete due to higher cost of doing business.

How will this impact current cars on order which have not been delivered yet ?

If Europe was like Australia, with no car manufacturing industry, I'd be all for super cheap EVs, open the flood gates.

Your not wrong on your comment on the Aussie market - theres a dozen Chinese brands slated to enter there next year. This will mean there are over 60 brands of cars available there.

Australia makes a good market for testing exports with Asian brands given their geographical proximity and regulatory setups. Also the cars will be RHD which is positive for Ireland/UK.

No update on the Tesla website today. The price of an M3 is the same as it was yesterday. Be a bit of pain in the hope if you were to be stung for an extra 7.8%.

I don't have a straightforward answer, it's complex, nuanced, and I'm far from an expert so be mindful of that.

As people get poorer due to increased job losses, emissions tend to rise because those affected seek cheaper means of living. People would no longer be able to upgrade their homes to be more energy efficient, no longer be able to afford more domestically manufactured/locally sourced goods, and seek to source cheaper goods from the likes of China which increases shipping demands, further polluting our oceans and increasing emissions. They'll be less able to shop more environmentally friendly options because it can be more expensive. Due to lower incomes, the purchasing of more low quality/single use goods becomes more widespread, increasing waste. People would try to source cheaper sources of food from international markets, so there would be more political pressure to source more beef for example from Brazil, increasing the pace of amazon deforestation.

Opening the flood gates to Chinese EVs at the expense of our own industry increases long distance shipping demands. Then you have to consider the energy sources used in the manufacturing process. China still uses a lot of coal despite their increasing solar output. It also gives the CCP more power, which is bad in my opinion, making Europe less resourceful and more vulnerable diplomatically because the balance of trade would be tipped even further in China's favor.
China's primary source of energy production is Coal, amounting to ~69%. - Source
In Europe, coal amounts to a mere ~16% of energy production. - Source
Coal is obviously the worst source, and the high usage in China in the production of EVs doesn't help our climate.

I won't repeat what I said before about the social impact due to job losses if the industry is allowed to fail, or suffer severe downsizing due to political inaction, but the importance of maintaining social stability by protecting jobs should not be overlooked.

There are lots of talking points I'm omitting for the sake of time, which I believe are important to consider(ex: environmental cost/benefit analysis of cheap Chinese imports and their uptake in Europe). Green energy investments such as Fusion, Nuclear, Solar. Nuclear energy is by far the cleanest source of energy we are technologically capable of currently, and would have by far the largest impact, decreasing global emissions by orders of magnitude. The lack of widespread nuclear investment is borderline criminal and illogical in my opinion. I also believe that far more funding should be poured into fusion research.

So to answer your question partly;
Yes I think these domestic industries should be protected, but I don't believe it will impact our climate negatively like you think it will.
I could be wrong though, I'm open to change my mind.

Because our Politicians are stupid.