Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

Missing pages. Removed from the jobs book. Would any member of the public be able to do this, or have the necessary access etc? I don't think so!

Or a motive for so doing?

Looks exactly like corruption to me.

As I have written before, I couldn't say that the Gardai is per se a corrupt organization, certainly not in today's Ireland.

Going back the the 90ies, and looking at the Gardai in this particular case, they were corrupt, colluded, coerced and thus perverted the course of the whole investigation. Whether that was by accident/incomptenence or by design is up for continous debate. It's possible it was a combination of both, especially if there was a more "local motive", like drugs or something sexual, not Daniel sending somebody. Nobody was fired, nobody disciplined, nobody lost his pension, Dermot Dwyer even praised.

But this was back then, it's not today.

Nor do you, apparently.

This should help: (from Oxford Languages)

"
corrupt/kəˈrʌpt/

adjective

1. 1.having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain."unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"Similar:dishonestdishonourableunscrupulousunprincipledamoraluntrustworthyunderhanddeceitfuldouble-dealingdisreputablediscreditableshamefulscandalouscorruptiblebribablebuyablevenalfraudulentswindlinggraftingcriminallawlessfeloniousvillainousnefariousiniquitousmalfeasantcrookedshadytrickydirtylow-downrascallyscoundrellybentdodgyhollow-heartedOpposite:honestlaw-abiding
2. 2.(of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations."a progressively corrupt magnetic record is usable nonetheless"

verb

1. 1.cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain."there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"Similar:bribesubornbuybuy offpay offgrease someone's palmgive someone a backhandergive someone a sweetenerkeep someone sweetget atfixsquarenobbleOpposite:purge
2. 2.change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations. "

Covers the situation well, I think.

Corrupt.

Corruption. Financial gain.

Bandon Tape 98, 18/04/1997 Garda Billy Byrne, D/Garda Jim Fitzgerald

Context:

Chris Farrell has beaten up Niall Flynn who he alleges he caught prowling. He was also caught with stolen property. The Farrells are worried because Flynn wants to press charges for assault. Fitzgerald suggests Chris Farrell should make a statement before Flynn does. This is because whoever makes the first statement to police always gets more credence. Garda Byrne suggests this is not necessary because even if Flynn does make a statement first, the Gardai could get a statement from Farrell afterwards and fake the date to make it look like Chris's statement “predate” it. Fitzgerald suggests a way Chris could say the assault as self-defence. Byrne teases Fitzgerald that there would be another murder and they would both do well out of it. Apparently Fitzgerald bought himself an expensive ride-on lawn mower with all the overtime he got for the case. Fitzgerald reassures Billy that Chris will know what to say because "he is a man of the world".

UNKNOWN : Hello.

FITZGERALD: Hello, would Billy be about, please?

UNKNOWN : Who's speaking, please?

FITZGERALD: It's Jim Fitzgerald in Bandon.

UNKNOWN : Billy.

BYRNE : Yes James.

FITZGERALD: Hello, Sir.

BYRNE : How's it going, boy?

FITZGERALD: Things are very bad, boy.

BYRNE : What?

FITZGERALD: Things are grand, boy.

BYRNE : Grand?

FITZGERALD: How are things now?

BYRNE : Ah, sure struggling along now, boy.

FITZGERALD: You were at the youth club, were you?

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: I rang around 7.00 or half seven.

BYRNE : Oh, I was out yeah.

FITZGERALD: Had ye a bit of night out?

BYRNE : Hmm?

FITZGERALD: Had ye a big night there or what?

BYRNE : Like every Friday night, like.

FITZGERALD: Is that right?

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: And do they come from Schull?

BYRNE : They do.

FITZGERALD: Era your one was on to me there tonight, you know, Marie.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: She was saying that she was bringing the kids, they were going to bring the kids to the youth club, you know.

BYRNE : Oh, yeah.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : Maybe she she has kids coming to the youth club, I don't know like.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: Did you ever see them there?

BYRNE : Ah, sure I wouldn't even know them, to be honest with you.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah. She rang you today, did she, Billy?

BYRNE : Yeah. Your man is talking about coming in on Tuesday. He was in yesterday looking for me, but I wasn't here.

FITZGERALD: Right.

BYRNE : He wanted to come in and make a statement like, you know.

FITZGERALD: Yeah. Right, right.

BYRNE : But sure we'll **** play him along and see where he goes anyway on it.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure I suppose was she worried when she rang you?

BYRNE : What?

FITZGERALD: Was she a bit worried?

BYRNE : She didn't sound worried, like.

FITZGERALD: Well, how did she know he was coming in I wonder, Billy, was it or did she just ring you.

BYRNE : No, she only rang to know had I any news on it like, you know.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : To know, had he made any complaint or whatever like, you know.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BYRNE : Em, so I said no that he was - he rang me, he was, he rang me that he was here looking for me yesterday.

FITZGERALD: Right.

BYRNE : So I said - he wanted to come into me today.

FITZGERALD: Ya.

BYRNE : So I said no.

FITZGERALD: Isn't he an awful bollix now, too.

BYRNE : I said I'm off until Tuesday, simple as that.

FITZGERALD: Hmm.

BYRNE : And I am not entertaining you until Tuesday.

FITZGERALD: Hmm.

BYRNE : Because when I'm off, I'm off as the fella says like that's why I said to him.

FITZGERALD: Ah, sure I know that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

BYRNE : You know, but I mean like that **** bollix, like, you know.

FITZGERALD: The only thing about it is, Billy, if they make statements then to say had have reported incidents of larcenies and things and he was found you could always tell him that .. we might be …

BYRNE : Oh, don't worry I'll, **** push it over upon him.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : You know.

FITZGERALD: You know yourself, now.

BYRNE : Yeah, I'll have my facts got now off of Ger and everything.

FITZGERALD: Yeah. There would be no point in Farrell making statement first, I suppose.

BYRNE : What?

FITZGERALD: There would be no point in Farrell making an old statement first, I suppose.

BYRNE : But sure we can always pre-date it if it comes to it, like, you know.

FITZGERALD: Exactly, yeah.

BYRNE : No problem at all.

FITZGERALD: Exactly.

BYRNE : Let him make a statement of complaint against him like.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah, because they have been good to us like, in fairness.

BYRNE : Oh **** it I mean yes.

FITZGERALD: Oh, she's a tough, cookie that one, sure you dealt with her the.

BYRNE : Sure I did of course ya.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah.

BYRNE : I did, yeah.

FITZGERALD: She's a tough cookie, I tell you.

BYRNE : No, sure even today now on the phone – she is 100% sure that.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

SPEAKER3: 100% sure.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : So I will.

FITZGERALD: They were lucky they got their stuff back, weren't they, that time?

BYRNE : Which?

FITZGERALD:

BYRNE : Oh, sure they'd have gone from you know.

FITZGERALD: What?

BYRNE : They'd have...

FITZGERALD: Is that right?

BYRNE : - Yeah, because they had.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BYRNE : Oh, sure we got them all back for them when Jesus I opened the boot of the car that morning and saw the stuff inside in it ****, twas great like.

FITZGERALD: A couple of thousand pounds worth, like.

BYRNE : Oh, yeah,

FITZGERALD: But she's tough though, Billy.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: Oh, Jesus, I will tell you, and would be a good witness, like.

BYRNE : Oh, fair dues Ya.

FITZGERALD: Oh, she'll be a good witness now.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: Yeah

BYRNE : No, we'll.

FITZGERALD: Ah no, she rang me there this evening to tell me that your man was coming in, I told her to keep in touch and she said she rang you this morning.

BYRNE : That's right yeah.

FITZGERALD: And she says to me, she says to me, Does Billy Byrne know she said it was me that was out there that night.

FITZGERALD: It might be as **** well if he was told now I said, wouldn't it? I says, I said its like the scrum now we'll have to wheel it around it, you know.

BYRNE : Ah, yes, yes,yes.

FITZGERALD: Well, she says if you want to say it you can **** say it, she says it makes no **** difference, I suppose, she says, I suppose it will be known sooner or later, you know: I said I will talk to Billy later on.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: You know, so. Sure Billy, you can see when the oul' bollix comes in anyway.

BYRNE : Oh, I will, I will give him what he's looking for now Tuesday, like under no circumstances like, you know.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : He'll be left know – what what he is facing as well.

FITZGERALD: Yeah.

BYRNE : You know?

FITZGERALD: Ara, I'd say your man in hindsight like, is gone into a.

BYRNE : Yeah, yeah.

FITZGERALD: That's why she rang it I'd say.

BYRNE : Poor devil ya, he could have ****.

FITZGERALD: **** killed him, have another murder like and make a few pounds out of it.

BYRNE : It'd be all right, boy.

FITZGERALD: What?

BYRNE : Buy another ride on.

FITZGERALD: Ha.

BYRNE : You'd buy another ride on.

FITZGERALD: Exactly, exactly, exactly.

BYRNE : Oh, God.

FITZGERALD: He's a weird fucker and then that – then I'll tell you.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: Yeah

BYRNE : Oh, he is, yeah.

FITZGERALD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, Billy, look that's grand, I didn't know what the circumstances when she rang me, just to say that she'd be on to you and that there was a bit of trouble on the way and I said what's wrong Oh Jesus she said Billy told me that bollix is coming in on Tuesday and she says and I had to go back and tell my fella and all of a sudden she is all sorts of problems and, you know. So I said look, year look we will play it handy a while. Tis early days yet.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: You know, She says that fella mightn't be around the area even in, you know.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: As the man says, if ye make allegations that there was a prowler and ye saw him and he was trespassing.

BYRNE : Oh, yeah.

FITZGERALD: And things are being taken and I said he will be open to some serious problems as well, you know.

BYRNE : Of course, yes.

FITZGERALD: And you can always say that sure he drew a punch and missed as you drew back, you know what I mean.

BYRNE : Yeah.

FITZGERALD: He's a man of the world, he knows what to say and do.

BYRNE : Oh, yeah.

FITZGERALD: What?

BYRNE : Oh, we'll cover him, alright.

FITZGERALD: Right, Billy, look thanks for the call.

BYRNE : No problem.

FITZGERALD: Bye, bye, bye.

I missed this, apologies.

Will you stop with your ridiculous talk about sympathy for Sophie's family? Everyone has sympathy for her family. It's not about that. Some of us think spreading Garda lies about who killed Sophie is not sympathy for her family, it's betrayal. What's driving you is not sympathy for the family, it's the hatred whipped up against Ian Bailey and your frustration that Jules Thomas stood by him.

You said Jules "bears responsibility" for the abuse meted out to her by Gardai. Now you are blaming her for staying with him - because why - she had "opportunities" to leave, to get a barring order? What do you mean "opportunities"? Jules made a choice, and a noble one at that. She didn't need "opportunities" she could have kicked him out any time she wanted but she chose not to. This word "opportunity" you says a lot, it shows your sympathy for Jules is just contempt.

Jules has explained many times why she stayed with him because, in her words:

‘If I had left him in the middle of all that, it would have looked like he did it'

Jules Thomas stood by a man, who so many hate, in order to stand for the truth. She stood up and say, yes, he did beat me, and my daughter's hate him but even so we all agree he couldn't have murdered Sophie.

That is something incredibly noble and selfless for her to do. And people like you come along and resent her because she won't lie.

https://extra.ie/2024/01/27/news/irish-news/jules-thomas-ian-bailey-3

I went back and read it again assuming I must have missed something. But no…I didn`t.

I don’t see the fact of pages missing or torn from a jobs book as prima facie evidence of corruption. Neither did the GSOC review. It’s not evidence on its face of an act having been done for an improper purpose, and putting it in bold doesn’t make it so.

Can anybody advise how a jobs book is managed ?

Is it like the log at the front desk where any member on duty has access to it to record any actions in e.g. verifying someone's ID for a passport, producing licence or insurance, etc..

Or is access more tighty controlled and restricted to one or more officially designated owners / recorders.

I've worked in regulated industry where following protocols and integrity of records are vital.

If a document needed correction an error was struck through, the correction signed and dated and the reason for the correction recorded in the document changelog. Same for any amendments or additions.

'Losing' documents, removing pages, making any changes without correctly annotating them would have been a serious disciplinary or dismissable matter as it would completely compromise the integrity of the product.

I'd consider the Garda misconduct, whether by intent or by incompetence, or a combination of both, has completely compromised the investigation into and rendered it practically impossible to charge anyone for the murder of Sophie Toscana du Plantier.

Unless new, compelling and irrefutable evidence turns up at some stage I can't see any possibility of solving the case. Anything from the original investigation has to be considered compromised.

The real question is why do you @tibruit think you know better than Jules Thomas? Is it because you watched Netflix and read Nick Foster?

I suggest the answer to 1. is because the original investigation failed to do 3. and 2. properly or in the correct order.

Probably not a "gotcha" but there's always been a discrepancy between his account and Shirley Foster's account of where they met on the Monday. Shirley was always adament they met in the lane and even described the spot where she had to pull in to allow Bailey to pass (by the caravan). Bailey, on the other hand maintains, even on the latest Mirror podcast, they met on the Kealfada road while he was on the way to Toormore post office to see if there was any information on the murder. If Bailey was going to Toormore Post Office from the Prairie he would not be on Kealfada road. As far as I know Shirley foster is still alive and may have been interviewed by the Gardaí again.

This is #1 reason why I say Bailey didn't do it. If he did it, Jules Thomas would know.

And if she does know then they were in a conspiracy of silence for 27 years. Do you think she would let Bailey do something so reckless and stupid as to sue 7 newspapers and the State if he was guilty?

When you realize this one fact it's already clear he is innocent.

Now put that together with the lack of any physical or forensic evidence, the extraordinary midnight hike needed to commit the crime, the Garda corruption, the absence of motive, the ridiculous framing of Bailey's words as "confessions", the recanting of Marie Farrell, the lack of any physical or forensic evidence, the fact that the neighbours' dogs all around Sophie's cottage were going nuts earlier in the night when Bailey was still in the pub in Schull... I could go on.

I guess stranger things have happened but I cannot see any reasonable case against him.

Its very true post here...and very harsh reality is we may not ever get information that's needed to edge it to any sort of conclusion ..to really know who did this.

Its borderline fanciful when I think of all messing around..tampering with witnesses statements , coercing witnesses..etc. granted I know sometimes not everything is going fall into place and AGS had bend rules..but they could have done so with multiple suspects rather than one...at least that way there would be higher chance of success ..it would have all been forgotten once they had found that killer...

But the one suspect and ridiculing them to the last has been the downfall. Imo.

That area of focus always brings my attention to things...is that Farrell went first to AGS...it leads me to believe she was out that night and seen someone...it wasn't bailey...but as trade off..to never reveal passenger with her..AGS bargained with her say it was bailey.and nothing more on that passenger...would that be reasonable?

It just never adds up ..that another whole dimension to case ..is passenger in her car. ..never revealed.

The only second thing still gets me ..is that I definitely think any interaction on night..happened solely at the gate...as I think if it did happen at her door of home...instinct would still have brought her to Lyons house...in that moment but just my thinking on it.

She was an abused woman during their relationship yet she chose to remain with him for the next thirty years. If he did do it and confessed to her why would she not participate in the charade particularly given the possibility of a major payday from the libel trials.

Thats a lot of IF; there is nothing to support this theory. Everything points the other way.

Not really. Anyone living within an hour's hike could have done it. That's a lot of people.

Nothing to imply a sexual motive - the location rather argues against it, if anything. Cold!

So the case is no stronger against that suspect than against anyone else. Indeed, there were people who Sophie had "put their back up" (Lyons, the neighbour) who may have had a marginally better motive than none at all.

Interesting article on the case in The Times today - an extract on DNA testing:

“The investigation team will make further trips in which other exhibits will be brought for testing. These may include the clothes that Toscan du Plantier was wearing on the night of the killing, including white leggings, a white T-shirt, dressing gown and boots, as well as the main murder weapons: a flat slate rock and concrete breeze block.

The weapons were swabbed during the original investigation but they did not produce a “foreign” DNA profile. There was a tiny speck of blood on one of the boots, in which a male component was detected. However, further testing failed to produce enough material for a profile.

Over the years Bailey proclaimed that this proved his innocence. It did not. There was not sufficient DNA to provide evidence that might have exonerated or convicted anyone”

I think you`ll find that I`ve never condoned the antics of Fitzgerald, but just to be clear, you now acknowledge that the level of corruption in this case amounts to a fella buying a lawnmower with his overtime, and you had to come up with something that is barely tangential to the murder to allege that.

If she understood the brief she would have had him walking in the direction of the Prairie somewhere north of Sophie`s laneway and not on his way to Goleen.

Yes - great observation! Wrong conclusion, though. Marie Farrell didn't know where the crime scene was. She heard the news, like everyone, that it was in Toormore, and the Gardai had specifically called for any witnesses on the Schull to Goleen road (R592) or the Toormore to Durrus roads (R591).

This is one of the reasons why I think the sighting is made up. If she wanted to make up a sighting near the scene, but you didn't know where the scene was it is an obvious place to pick. Everyone knows Goleen, Crookhaven etc. Very few people knew Drinane.

Another detail is that she reported the man was on the Goleen side of the junctionwalking towards Goleen, which is the wrong way if you want to go back to the Prairie Cottage. This is another one of those awkward details, like the black beret, that seem to have been forgotten in the rush to pin it on Ian Bailey.

EDIT: No, you're right she misunderstood the brief. The Gardai never told her to make up the sighting, but they made it known, perhaps inadvertently, that the man in the black coat was their suspect and they needed to put him near the scene so they could arrest him "before he killed again". This was mid January and they had talked to Farrell several times at this stage. So she made the anonymous call to help them. This ballsed up the whole investigation, all other leads were abandoned. This is why she can never admit it.

If it's true that they are re-testing her clothes then that would be an amazing step in the right direction. I believe that Harbison even indicated in his report that some of the blood that was on her person appeared to have dripped there from someone standing over her. If they can test this blood, even if it was Sophie's, there is a strong likelihood they may pick up other DNA from it also. Whether one believes Bailey did it or not, everyone should be excited about this, as it would be slam dunk definitive the person was the perpetrator. It's is about the best hope we have for finding the truth, aside from direct witnesses.

I wanted to see what you guys were discussing, and this is part of the statement that Shirley gave:

“Further to my previous statements on the Monday of the 23.12.96 while travelling from my home to Schull at 2.20 P.M. approx. I met Ian. And Jules on the way in. I met him before the caravan. I got the distinct impression that he was not going to stop the way he was driving so I flagged him down and left down the window. I spoke briefly with Ian and Jules as already given in my previous statements.”

From what I can see on the top of the statement this was taken on 24.12.96, @PolicemanFox can you confirm this? If that is true that is actually incredible. This implies that she was specifically asked to provide a statement detailing the whereabouts of Bailey within 24 hours or so of them finding the body. Is that correct?

Hard to say. But you have a young definition of 'elderly' as Alfie wasn't at bus pass age at time of murder. Hard to judge the extent of his health condition, he was able to run side projects and be involved in a restaurant \ bistro.