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The Truth: The Mathematical Proof of God, The Holy Trinity

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,218 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Probably not the right forum for this. Maybe try Christianity, Conspiracy Theories, Mathematics, or After Hours.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Mod: No issues with discussing religious concepts and ideas here, just as long as the opening poster is aware that they're likely to receive a critical response to both their post and underlying belief system. For example, Christian numerology is not exactly a new subject and nor is numerology unique to Christianity, you see it popping up in all sorts of occult and religious beliefs. Anyone doubting this should take a trip to China some time. Maths is fun, but it is a rather silly non-sequitur to postulate that patterns we see in mathematics or the natural world prove the existence and any given god or occult belief. There are any number of articles debunking numerology, the first one the popped out of a google search here isn't bad. Should the OP or anyone else here fancy discussing this further, go for it, that's why this forum is here. Keep it polite please, reasoned criticism of beliefs, ideas etc… is great, personal attacks, unsupported vitriol and soap boxing are not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There wouldn't be much point starting such a thread in Christianity, would there? (talk about preaching to the choir!) as clearly the intent is to convert. People who are already believers don't need proof.

    Well since Pluto was downgraded, there are only eight planets… same as between 1846 and 1930 (because planets don't exist until they've been observed 😉 ) although using planets not mentioned in the bible (and the concept of a heliocentric solar system which was long regarded as heresy) to support the supposed truth of the bible is rather silly

    Saying 'there are X books in the bible' is also rather questionable to say the least as denominations don't agree. (Most Protestant denominations choose - because it is a choice, made by humans - 66. But RCC 73, Ethiopian Orthodox 81…)

    The first number is not one, it is zero, as every Real Programmer™ knows.

    The assertions made beneath the silly little sums don't follow. They are plainly unsupported assertions to fit the poster's religious view. In other words working backwards from the conclusion in a desperate attempt to present "evidence" which is, of course, nothing of the sort.

    We are no futher along here than we are with Douglas Adams' great analogy of how a sentient puddle would believe that the hole it is in was made for it, since it fits perfectly!

    Will the OP ever be seen again - magic 8-ball says "outlook not so good".

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    You are right to highlight the fact that there have been many many attempts to prove God through numerology and all have been proven wrong with concrete critique. This, However, is The Truth which I present to know. You could take it to the best of mathematicians and they all would struggle to find a flaw.

    The believe that God cannot be revealed through the language of the Universe, Mathematics, is unfounded and The Proof attached proves it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    "Well since Pluto was downgraded, there are only eight planets"

    Many planetary scientists advocate for a simpler definition, focusing on intrinsic properties like size, shape, and geological activity. By this standard, Pluto would easily qualify as a planet. Pluto exhibits active geology, seasonal changes, and surface renewal processes not seen on most asteroids or other small bodies. These features reflect internal heat and dynamic systems akin to those of terrestrial planets. Unlike asteroids, which are often fragments of larger bodies, Pluto is a primordial object that has retained its integrity since the solar system’s formation.

    "Saying 'there are X books in the bible' is also rather questionable to say the least as denominations don't agree. (

    MostProtestant denominations choose - because it is a choice, made by humans - 66. But RCC 73, Ethiopian Orthodox 81…)"

    There are many denominations and they all cannot be correct in their doctrine. The Truth has been revealed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There are bigger objects than Pluto which are not regarded as planets. It also is not gravitationally massive enough to have cleared its orbit of other objects. That's why it was downgraded.

    Before 1930, would you have been making an argument that 8 planets were proof of something something in the bible? Because nobody had observed a ninth.

    You are still asserting "truth" based solely on assertion. Martin Luther's "truth" of 66 books beats the Pope's "truth" of 73 books, because…..?

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,921 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I had a look at your document OP as I generally find numerology quite humorous.

    So let's just say everything in your document is true (and Pluto is still a planet, when it's not) - how does it prove the existence of the Christian god?

    What does it actually say?

    And just to add to that, why is your bible numerology correct and other religions numerology not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    My God, by this rationality, 333 means that God is only half the value of the Devil. Or did I get the maths wrong?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,921 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Does this make dialling 999 a type of idolatry?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    Technically, I think it's witchcraft, which would also include practicing the use of 111. We need a new Council Of Nicea to sort out this numerological disaster. Otherwise people will continue to unwittingly consign themselves to the flames of hell.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    Because The Triune(Trinity) God is the One True God.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    It could also mean that the devil strives to be like God due to unearned pride. [Isaiah 14:14]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    It could also mean that the devil strives to be like God due to unearned pride. [Isaiah 14:14]



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    The maths in your document doesn't go beyond addition and multiplication, it hardly requires a mathematician to get to grips with, pass maths at inter cert level is more than adequate here. Nor is there anything in your document that looks anything like a mathematical proof from where I'm sitting. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which type of mathematical proof you are specifically claiming.

    Looking for word patterns and letter sequences in a large document that correspond to numerical sequences does nothing to support the notion that the story told in that document corresponds to reality. If you went searching in any sufficiently long document, e.g. The Lord of the Rings, you'd find the same correspondences. It doesn't encourage us to believe that Hobbits exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    Precisely. Looking for patterns in a theological text, using a conceptual system of patterning - as proof of a belief system - is simply proof of the power of imagination and cognitive bias. To keep it in the realm of literature, this is a less amusing version of a Dan Brown Catholic church conspiracy-style novel without the conspiracy aspect; a join-the-dots game, as it were.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    Apart from the fact that the document contains nothing but arithmetic that adds up to SFA, the various assertions as to anchoring facts for the infantile numerology are also vacuous.

    The bible, depending on which version you are talking about, varies from 66 to 80 books. If you start looking at how that came about you see that there was a very human, arbitrary process to decide what was included.

    The point has already been made about the number of planets in the solar system. And if you want to get really tinfoil hat about it, what about Nibiru, Vulcan and Planet X?

    Also the cross transposed onto the clock is a good one. The clockface as we use it is only one representation of the division of the hours, which again, are an entirely arbitrary, human invention. There is also strong evidence from various places that crosses used to crucify people by first century Romans, were more often than not headless (as in T-shaped), and not the stylised ones we know today.

    Furthermore, the idea of the Trinity only emerged about 100-150 years after the chap who might have been who we call Jesus actually died. It was then retrofitted by a powerful church later to fit its needs.

    And finally, I was truly lost to the point of this when I read the triune god was "Equal in Diety [sic] & Divinity, Unequal in Power & Authority and the same in being."

    I love a good diety, me — low carbs, high protein.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    If the first number is zero, then you should have 9 fingers on both your hands. 4.5 on each.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    It was Man's knowledge of the Universe that was limited. The solar system has always been comprised of 9 planet.

    The Deuterocanonical books, contain teachings that are inconsistent with the rest of Scripture. For example, certain practices like purgatory, prayers for the dead, and the veneration of saints are based on these additional books but are not found in the 66-book Protestant Bible, which emphasizes salvation by faith alone and direct relationship with God. The 66 books of the Bible are seen as more accurate because they align with the original Hebrew canon and maintain theological coherence and align with the broader message of Scripture.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    To be clear 0 is the first whole number whereas 1 is the first natural number. There is no first number, only first numbers in certain ordered sets of numbers. e.g. there is no first integer, no first real number and no first angle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    "The bible, depending on which version you are talking about, varies from 66 to 80 books. If you start looking at how that came about you see that there was a very human, arbitrary process to decide what was included"

    The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided the words and thoughts of the biblical writers, leading them to write what God wanted them to write - 2 Timothy 3:16

    Nibiru is a myth, as opposed to Pluto, whose characteristics and orbit have been extensively studied and documented.

    "Also the cross transposed onto the clock is a good one. The clockface as we use it is only one representation of the division of the hours, which again, are an entirely arbitrary, human invention. There is also strong evidence from various places that crosses used to crucify people by first century Romans, were more often than not headless (as in T-shaped), and not the stylised ones we know today."

    Romans 5:6 justifies the clock fixed into a time clock: "For while we were still weak, at the right TIME Christ died for the ungodly"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭These Are Facts


    Interesting, however consider also the golden mean/section 1.618033 or it's inverse 0.618033 as a ratio.
    This is present across the entire universe as an 'intelligent design' or code. Formulated by a God or Creation Programmer.

    Separately, there are 65 major moons in our Solar System, and many smaller ones. But only we enjoy perfect solar eclipses and have a moon facing our planet, which has a phase that matches a human woman's menstrual cycle of 29.5 days.

    The Moon is 400 times smaller than the Sun.
    The Moon is also about 400 times closer to the Earth than is the Sun.
    As a result, the size of the Moon on our sky matches the size of the Sun.
    And since they appear as round disks, they match in both size and shape.
    This tight match between Moon, Sun Earth only happens during a narrow window of human life on Earth’s history.

    and so on, and on intelligent design is everywhere…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    So, which bible are you settling on then? There are many to choose from.

    Secondly, from a logical standpoint, citing the very document for which you are arguing as to the validity of that document is circular and redundant.

    Is it intelligent design? Or is it a series of patterns that emerge due to the basic make up of things?

    Jumping to a conclusion of supernatural forces to explain things is an abdication of responsibility to question further.

    Nothing in what has been revealed by human curiosity and study has thus far required a supernatural explanation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭These Are Facts


    Likewise, the dismal of Universal inteligent design, as 'random chance' is an abdication of responsibility to question further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Especially one which has been added to, edited, and translated, many times.

    So OP maybe you should be applying your analysis to the Koran 😉

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We haven't moved on from bald assertion I see.

    The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided the words and thoughts of the biblical writers, leading them to write what God wanted them to write - 2 Timothy 3:16

    It's true because it says it's true?

    It's hardly going to have a verse somewhere saying the whole thing is made up, now, is it?

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Arguably we already do… unless you play guitar or piano or some other instruments you'd hardly miss your little finger, it's not up to much!

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,498 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    C'mon now! If dwarf people are still people surely it follows that dwarf planets are still planets 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    I have not used the term random chance and wouldn't.

    Universal intelligent design is just as useless a term in this context.

    Patterns are not an necessarily indication of intelligence, nor is randomness and indication of an absence of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,921 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Your understanding of non Christian religions is quite lacking. There are Trinity/three type beliefs in other religions too.

    For example:

    'The Trimurti[a] is the trinity of supreme divinity in Hinduism, in which the cosmic functions of creation, preservation, and destruction are personified as a triad of deities.'

    What if your numerology is correct, you've discovered there is a creator via you maths, but you've actually inadvertently proven Hinduism to be correct?

    I still don't see how any of your numerology proves the Christian god to be true. Particularly given how wildly definitive the title of your thread is.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Coincidence.

    Eclipses are interesting because of how they were recorded throughout human history as noteworthy events. Also can permit astronomical observations which are not otherwise possible. But they are of no significance in themselves, unless you're into astrology and 'planetary alignments' and all that guff

    The moon was orbiting the earth for a very long time before any mammals evolved to align their menstrual cycles with it. You might as well wonder why we feel tired and alert on a 24 hour cycle…

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,921 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    You are making the age old human error of trying to find meaning in coincidence.

    We (for all intents and purposes re statistical maths and probability), live in an infinite universe.

    In an infinite universe, there are infinite chances of coincidences.

    There are more than likely countless planets in the universe with similar size ratios to their stars and moons.

    But to give you the benefit of the doubt, lets say you are correct. Intelligent design exists and that's why we have eclipses.

    If a god exists and he designed solar and lunar eclipses to be a thing, then you'd imagine they'd play a massive part in his religious following. Why else would they happen?

    Are eclipses a big part of Christianity? No, they're not. On the flip side, eclipses played a part in many pagan belief systems.

    Why would an intelligent, Christian designer god create a planet that's perfectly aligned for solar and lunar eclipses when they serve no purpose in his religion. And not only that, lead people astray and to false religion?

    Or are you another one who's inadvertently 'proving' other religions to be true and not your own one?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    You are making the age old human error of trying to find meaning in coincidence

    Or, more cynically, searching for co-incidences to support an entirely unevidenced belief system.

    Why would an intelligent, Christian designer god create a planet that's perfectly aligned for solar and lunar eclipses when they serve no purpose in his religion.

    Worth pointing out that intelligent design does not in any way support the notion of Christian god. There are an infinite number of other potential intelligent design options, limited only by our own imagination. For example, we could all be living in a huge computer simulation, as per The Matrix. Or the known universe could have been sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkelseizure. That's before going near the myriad of other mythological belief systems and creation stories different parts of humanity has favoured throughout history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,921 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Oh 100% re intelligent design - I am completely assuming anyone on here arguing for intelligent design is a Christian (particularly given the subject of the thread).

    Perhaps I am incorrect, in which case, apologies to the poster I quoted!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    Numerology and its its cognitive ilk is a natural human tendency to find meaningful patterns in the world around us, lending itself to beliefs in conspiracy and supernatural agency. The overall cognitive tendency is called apophenia. All of us are prone to it, some more than others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭These Are Facts


    re: "or example, we could all be living in a huge computer simulation, as per The Matrix. "

    Indeed, and such a computer simulation would clearly need an technical author, code programmer I.e. One that could be would be deemed a creator type God.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    But by definition such a designer (should one exist) exists outside our universe and is unknown, and unknowable, to us.

    A deistic creator is at least kind of plausible. A theistic creator is not.

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    "So, which bible are you settling on then? There are many to choose from."

    I Tell you, The Bible with 66 books is The True Word of God. As The Proof shows with edifying evidence.

    "Is it intelligent design? Or is it a series of patterns that emerge due to the basic make up of things?"

    Do not just settle with the ""How" of things, but ponder upon the "Why?" Only then will Truth be revealed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    Skim through The Proof and presenting flaws found, if possible, that is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    Then you wouldn't mind me chopping of your little finger.😎



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    The Proof is backed up by The Word of God, The Bible, not by the Hindu texts . As indicated at every segment of The Proof.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 kingiyk


    However, when such coincidences prove consistent and coherent over several segments, as indicated in The Proof, One should learn to acknowledge it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    My appendix might not be all that useful but I'm not going to go through surgery unless I have a good reason. You're dodging the points I and others have raised and falling back on the assertion of "The Truth", as you may have already noticed that sort of thing is not found convincing by very many around these parts.

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What sort of god would allow a billion (mostly) well-meaning Hindus to lead themselves into such error and then punish them for it?

    We're on a road to nowhere.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Agreed, just pointing out that the notion of Intelligent Design put forward by Christian (pseudo-)Scientists is a just a single example of the enormous set of possible intelligent design scenarios that we might imagine. All of these fall into the range of speculative fiction to absurd fantasy. The fact that we can disprove any of these unevidenced hypotheses doesn't in itself lend them any credibility. The fact that a given group of people, such as Christian Scientists, have a deep seated desire for their particular story to be true, and push it hard on that basis, is an example of cognitive bias that actually undermines their credibility.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Ok, so lets break down what is being claimed here;

    1. The bible, a work of some 783,137 words in the King James version, contains a number of numerical patterns that share the number 3 as a factor or root.
    2. This is so statistically unlikely it could not happen randomly
    3. The authors of the text could not have added such patterns by design
    4. Therefore the only possible explanation is divine inspiration by the God referred to in the bible hence this God must exist

    For this to approximate any kind of proof, you'd need the following supporting proofs

    1. No other work of similar or lesser length, authored and transcribed by a similar or fewer number of people over a similar or shorter period of time, contains similar patterns
    2. Any random collection of paragraphs in the English language amounting to roughly 783 thousand words would not contain a similar number of patterns
    3. The authors of the bible did not knowingly insert such patterns into the text

    Now given that you're the one claiming the document you've provided constitutes a proof, the burden of proving this lies with you. It would be useful if you could come back to us with this information that supports your proof.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    Ah, here.  My whole point concerns acknowledging that coincidences that prove consistent and coherent should be acknowledged, but that they exist through the natural act of cognition. For materialists and naturalists, the world and its mysteries – in the end - have perfectly natural and rational explanations, i.e., rooted in natural rather than supernatural explanations (rather than physicalists - you can be a scientist and use this empirical process, and still have supernatural beliefs). The humility here is that mysteries remaining are simply those that can’t be figured out by our limited minds, rather than resorting to the ‘The God of the gaps’. This is simply psychological faith in there being only a natural world, and not a supernatural one (faith, rather than Faith). The onus on naturalists to explain the way the world happens to be is much harder than for those that don’t subscribe to the metaphysical principle of Occam’s Razor, because otherwise the typical trump card, such as in theism, is the soothing balm of explaining how everything mysterious and inexplicable is explainable -  as “God did it”. It is soothing to think that mere mortals can never comprehend the real reasons behind actions that deities could have prevented, as Job’s story preaches, but that's a psychological need, not a metaphysical fact.

    Confusion and doubt can thus be assuaged. Finding proof in numerology is not proof of deities - only a repetition of Aeschylus’ observation well over 2000 years ago: "The man who seeks for God, finds him." You see what you want to see. Cognition does the rest as imagination, and a fear of the death of an imaginary soul.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I present The Truth: The Mathematical Proof of The One True God

    As smacl correctly points out, there's a long history of religious people fiddling with numbers, then 'finding' their god when they put down their pencil. I wish you nothing but the very best with your strange beliefs and can only point out two items: a) how nice it is to see, in the final sentence of the first paragraph, somebody trying to reignite the splendid fourth-century homoousios vs homoiousios debate! b) that 'deity' is spelled 'deity' and not 'diety', which word ineluctably puts me in mind of an overweight god, which I suppose an infinite one, made of three infinite parts, probably would be.

    Sidney Harris seems appropriate at this point:



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    [smacl] To be clear 0 is the first whole number whereas 1 is the first natural number.

    That position is open to debate - Peano stated in his first axiom, that zero is a natural number, and having assumed that and eight further axioms, deduced so many useful things that many modern mathematicians, especially those involved with set theory, agree with his statement.

    Unhappily, Peano's first axiom is conventionally numbered '1' rather than '0', but not being a C or C++ programmer, one could perhaps forgive him that momentary lapse.



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