Chaging Broadband provider - almost impossible!

d-j-k · 09-12-2004 02:18PM #1

I enquired about changing from Eircom (eircom.net) to EsatBT's DSL service yesterday.

When I phoned EsatBT they talked me through one of their phone+DSL bundles which seemed like reasonably good value. However, when I said that I was already an eircom broadband customer I was told this is what I would have do to to change provider:

1) Cancel the Eircom DSL service completely.
2) Obtain a cancelation reference number from eircom
3) Subscribe to EsatBT's service.

The sales agent told me that it would mean going without broadband for up to 10 working days!

So, effectively, I can't change provider at all as I can't afford to have no broadband access for such an extended period of time.

I would consider an hour's disruption bad enough never mind 10 days!

This seems to be a case of anti-compeditive practice and I presume the case would be similar if you wanted to change from EsatBT to eircom too. So, for once eircom's not the only bad guy...

I rang comreg and they said that given the current legislation that unfortunately regulating the broadband retail market was outside of their remitt.

I contacted the Competition Authority (tca.ie) and so far have heard nothing back.

If this was the situation with changing telephone service providers we'd still all be using eircom!

I appreciate that for technical reasons it takes Esat a few days to set DSL up, however, I can't see why eircom needs to cease the exsisting DSL service until the new service is ready to switch on. It should be a relatively seamless handover.

Anyone have any suggestions?

As the DSL market becomes more established we're not going to see any competition between provicers. People, and particularly small businesses will be tied to the service they originally subscribed to! Basically there's no competition between DSL providers once they have you signed up!

Chalk · 09-12-2004 02:19PM

i would think ten days is reasonable to process all the orders etc.

takes about the same in the uk

d-j-k · 09-12-2004 02:27PM

I have no problem with a 10 day time period to activate the new service. However, if it means going without DSL completely for 10 days, which seems to be the case, it means that I cannot change provider.

For example would you change from vodafone to meteor if they told you that it meant they'd cut your phone off for 10 days while they processed your order?!

There's no way a small business or home office user can afford to have their broadband service disconnected for 10 days while they change provider.

Even for a domestic user who doesn't depend on broadband for business purposes it's a massively inconvienient wait time

And if it is the same situation in the UK it's also a barrier to competition and should be investigated by the authorities there too!

If someone changes broadband provider the service should not be disrupted during the change.

If broadband's already active on the line the line doesn't need to be re-tested. The customer's already got the relevant equipment set up at their end of the line.
A short disruption is all that i would expect while the line is connected to the other providers equipement at the exchange, or where the other provider's using eircom's bitstream product no disruption at all should be experienced (except maybe changing your passwords!)

It's a barrier to competition and you can be quite sure that the various companies involved will appreciate a nice technical barrier that prevents "churn".

spongebob · 09-12-2004 02:35PM

d-j-k wrote:

I enquired about changing from Eircom (eircom.net) to EsatBT's DSL service yesterday.

When I phoned EsatBT they talked me through one of their phone+DSL bundles which seemed like reasonably good value. However, when I said that I was already an eircom broadband customer I was told this is what I would have do to to change provider:

1) Cancel the Eircom DSL service completely.
2) Obtain a cancelation reference number from eircom
3) Subscribe to EsatBT's service.

The sales agent told me that it would mean going without broadband for up to 10 working days!

This is essentially correct if you are in contract, if your 12 month contract is up then the ESAT agent is wrong. Anybody may transfer from Eircom to another carrier AFTER their contract runs out. The transfer is instantaneous with no loss of service. The Procedure is called "Bitstream Port Transfer" , search Boards on this .

So, effectively, I can't change provider at all as I can't afford to have no broadband access for such an extended period of time.

I would consider an hour's disruption bad enough never mind 10 days!

This seems to be a case of anti-compeditive practice and I presume the case would be similar if you wanted to change from EsatBT to eircom too. So, for once eircom's not the only bad guy...

You are stumped if in contract , do clarify for us.

I rang comreg and they said that given the current legislation that unfortunately regulating the broadband retail market was outside of their remitt.

Typical craven Comreg crap ...unless you are in contract in which case there is nothing to regulate at present as Comreg are reviewing said same market at present but have not proposed any competition remedies yet.

I contacted the Competition Authority (tca.ie) and so far have heard nothing back.

While they contact Comreg and sort out a Mutually Useless policy on the issue.

If this was the situation with changing telephone service providers we'd still all be using eircom!

Correct. Nevertheless CPS instructions also take a few days, albeit with no loss of service.

I appreciate that for technical reasons it takes Esat a few days to set DSL up, however, I can't see why eircom needs to cease the exsisting DSL service until the new service is ready to switch on. It should be a relatively seamless handover.

You are wrong there if the 12 months is up cf Bitstream Port Transfer. If not you are absolutely right as Eircom 'own' you for the contract period and may have discounted some cost elements at setup on the assumption they have 12 months to get it back. The others all do the same BTW. Eircom could even ask for some of the subsidy back in return for a break of contract.

Basically there's no competition between DSL providers once they have you signed up!

AND if you are within the contract , 12 months nowadays. Comreg should reduce all standard contracts to 6 months or even 3 months, that would create fluidity and competition but we will have to wait for the review to find that Eircom have SMP (Significant Market Power ) in the BB market before they can start to force competition measures.

M

beer enigma · 09-12-2004 02:39PM

Just as a cautionary note, I changed from Eircom to UTV, who also state up to 10 working days.......

I cancelled my eircom DSL on 20th October and obtained a cease number from them, which I passed onto UTV when placing my order with them.

It's now the 9th December & still no DSL active !!. UTV are blaming eircom by saying thet they have been slow to release the line & without it UTV's (and I presume all other providers) hands are tied

To be without DSL is almost impossible for me as I work from home & rely on it as a lifeline.

So - word to the wise....changing may be more of a nightmare than you think !

d-j-k · 09-12-2004 02:40PM

we're connected to eircom broadband since December 2002 so I assume that we are no longer under contract.

We originally subscribed to it when the product launched first as "iStream"

spongebob · 09-12-2004 03:10PM

d-j-k wrote:

We originally subscribed to it when the product launched first as "iStream"

That could be the problem .

All carriers resell Eircoms RADSL product but you have the Eircom ADSL product. I think that Netsource resell it but I do not think that IOL/ESAT do. Even if they do resell it they do not resell it from 40 (mainly large urban) exchanges ....as they have their 'own ADSL' there. UTV resell the same ADSL package matrix as ESAT/IOL, in other words they resell ESATs one where they can if I am not mistaken.

If you did not change packages at any stage ....eg transferring to a higher CAP and cheaper RADSL ....you may have a problem.

To further confuse matters, most sales people do not know the mappings between their product names and eircoms names for the same product. If you are changing from 'like to like' then the Bitstream Port Transfer situation applied to you. If changing providers AND changing packages the Bitstream Port Transfer does NOT apply.

Seeing as you did not tell us which iStream you are on , I surmise the old €110 a month one , I therefore suggest you contact Digiweb who resell that and discuss the Bizjet package mentioned Here for €55 a month incl vat. It may be a resold ADSL , a direct equivalent of your istream and therefore falls witin the port transfer rules.

At least you can find a sentient being in Digiweb who will understand what I am talking about if you email them a link to this thread so if the answer is 'no' then do tell us why its if you could.

HTH

M

d-j-k · 09-12-2004 03:47PM

I'll see what I can do.

Sounds like another mess so typical of the Irish telecommunications sector though!

I really don't have the time or the patience to deal with this kind of stuff so I think I'll just stick with eircom.

ugh.

shoegirl · 13-12-2004 01:05AM

Chalk wrote:

i would think ten days is reasonable to process all the orders etc.

takes about the same in the uk

10 days my ar**!

Esat took exactly one month to connect me!
I actually thought they had forgotten me altogether.

dub45 · 13-12-2004 01:25AM

Muck wrote:

.........

AND if you are within the contract , 12 months nowadays. Comreg should reduce all standard contracts to 6 months or even 3 months, that would create fluidity and competition but we will have to wait for the review to find that Eircom have SMP (Significant Market Power ) in the BB market before they can start to force competition measures.

M

UTV users should be very careful on this issue as UTV are very anxious to get people to sign up for further 12 month contracts whenever they can. For instance the last price decreases were not passed on unless you signed up for a further 12 months while they are now requiring that you sign up for a further 12 months if you wish to change your Clicksilver product. This despite the fact that users have never been formally notified of this requirement as a change in Terms and Conditions and the only mention UTV ever gave of charges was when the products were originallly introduced and there was a small charge to move down and no charge to move up. Apparently the wholesale charge to UTV is only 15 euros and yet they require a 12 month commitement. I think that bb users should resist further 12 month contracts as strongly as possible. I can understand the initial one ok but after that they should be a no no!

Moriarty · 13-12-2004 01:35AM

I've noticed a flaw in your logic dub45. There isn't (to my knowledge) a single isp offering home dsl services under anything less than a 12 month contract. In fact, afaik netsource are the only isp to offer contracts of less than 12 months on any dsl service - and you pay a premium for that.

dub45 · 13-12-2004 02:55AM

Moriarty wrote:

I've noticed a flaw in your logic dub45. There isn't (to my knowledge) a single isp offering home dsl services under anything less than a 12 month contract. In fact, afaik netsource are the only isp to offer contracts of less than 12 months on any dsl service - and you pay a premium for that.

I am not disputing the initial 12 month contract on the basis that there are expenses to be recovered etc what I am disputing is UTV's (and anyone else who tries it too!) efforts to find excuses to get customers to commit to further 12 months contracts either during the first one or after the 12 month contract has expired. Requiring someone to commit to a further 12 months in order to change between Clicksilver products is absolutely ludicrouus not to mention a clear breach of their own terms and conditions!

Now if Eircom tried something like that............

Mark@mediasat · 13-12-2004 10:02AM

Remember a 6 or 3 month contract will bring up the price. Service provicers are discounting the proce of connection, probably a hundred quid or so. and the proce of the router 150 euro. so to claw back 240 euro over 6 months that's an increase in 40 euro on the monthly cost, an increase of 80 or so on a 3 month contract. and prices won't go down much after the 3 months.

Also when changing suppliers , the supplier will most probably insist that you user the router that they have spend months testing and training their support staf on.

shinzon · 13-12-2004 12:22PM

dub45 wrote:

UTV users should be very careful on this issue as UTV are very anxious to get people to sign up for further 12 month contracts whenever they can. For instance the last price decreases were not passed on unless you signed up for a further 12 months while they are now requiring that you sign up for a further 12 months if you wish to change your Clicksilver product. This despite the fact that users have never been formally notified of this requirement as a change in Terms and Conditions and the only mention UTV ever gave of charges was when the products were originallly introduced and there was a small charge to move down and no charge to move up. Apparently the wholesale charge to UTV is only 15 euros and yet they require a 12 month commitement. I think that bb users should resist further 12 month contracts as strongly as possible. I can understand the initial one ok but after that they should be a no no!

i have to agree with moriarty on this point, i work for an isp call centre and it states clearly in the terms and conditions that if you decide to change your Broadband circumstances, like upgrading to say 1 meg, this automatically signs you up for a further 12 months and is not a continuation of your old contract

if UTV does not have this stated clearly anywhere then maybe there is an issue

Shin

dub45 · 13-12-2004 02:14PM

shinzon wrote:

i have to agree with moriarty on this point, i work for an isp call centre and it states clearly in the terms and conditions that if you decide to change your Broadband circumstances, like upgrading to say 1 meg, this automatically signs you up for a further 12 months and is not a continuation of your old contract

if UTV does not have this stated clearly anywhere then maybe there is an issue

Shin

The fact that an isp has something in their terms and conditions does not make that right! My point is that customers should be resisting further 12 month contracts as they can become quite costly to be tied into. People are more mobile than ever in terms of moving accomodation or having to move because of work etc not to mention the prospects of further competition arriving (e.g. NTL arriving in certain areas). While there may be some justification in certain circumstance say a big wholesale charge having to be paid by the ISP in the case I quoted UTV only have a wholesale charge of 15 euros for moving someone downwards and no charge for moving a person up.
That does not seem any justification to me for requiring a customer to commit to a further 12 months and UTV do not have it in their Terms and Conditions nor have they notified customers of the change as they are required to do under their own terms and conditions.

Chaging Broadband provider - almost impossible!

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