Third Level Institutions

Paul_D · 22-09-2005 3:01pm #1

Hello. I’m in sixth year of secondary school and I’m gone to write my Leaving Cert in June 2006. The problem is that I don’t know where to go to get the third level qualification. I definitely want to do SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT or something very similar. But all the universities/IT’s offers courses which looks the same to me.

Does anybody know which of universities or institutes have the best courses in Software Development? I’m hoping to get very good results in my Leaving Cert especially in math/app. math, so I definitely will be able to pass any entry requirements.

P.S. BTW, I already develop my own small programs on C++ either using MFC or just API. I also learned a bit of Assembly language and wrote some small progs on that. About two years ago I started develop my own OS in protected mode using assembler, but because it was so difficult I left out it.

madramor · 22-09-2005 5:25pm

To get the best academic qualifications,
You want a good all round computer degree and
then look at a masters in software development.

Despite dropping its standards in the past 5 years I still think
DCU's Computer Applications degree is the best.

If you don't want to go to Dublin stay with a university rather than an IT.

Trinity and UCD degrees carry the most weight abroad especially in UK

I personally think masters degrees are a waste of time, most are not
that great and its just another year in college rather than out in the
work force where you really start learning.

DCU used to do a part time MSc that was good I think its fulltime now,
I personally think that DCUs MSc in ecom is a lot of crap based on
working with people who did it ie(they said they learned nothing new
from it).

Trinity do a good full time one i forget the name.

A lot of people are doing masters degrees because they cant get a
good software development job.

Paul_D · 22-09-2005 7:03pm

So, what I understand it will be better if I avoid Institutes of Technology.

So Computer Science degrees in DCU, TCD, UCD are the best in Ireland?

2 madramor: you were saying that you personally think that master degrees are waste of time, but then you said that a lot of people do them to get a decent job. I confused.

madramor · 22-09-2005 9:08pm

Paul_D wrote:

So, what I understand it will be better if I avoid Institutes of Technology.
So Computer Science degrees in DCU, TCD, UCD are the best in Ireland?

academically the universities are at a higher level than the ITs.

3rd level is all about what you put in and learn

you could be very good at studying and get a 1:1 in a university course
but not be a good developer
or
scrape a pass in an IT and be a great developer.

Yes, avoid ITs in favour of Universities because there courses tend
to be better (lecturers,course content,facilities,recognation)

Paul_D wrote:

2 madramor: you were saying that you personally think that master degrees are waste of time, but then you said that a lot of people do them to get a decent job. I confused.

there are very few development jobs around so people rather than doing
a admin,support,other IT job decide to do a master in the hope that it
will help them get a development job, i never said it works its just what
people are doing.

so no need to get confused
1:
my opinion, masters degrees are a waste of time
2:
other peoples opinion, a masters degree will get them a better job
3:
my opinion is in no way related to other peoples opinions

damnyanks · 22-09-2005 9:42pm

CIT, NUI Limerick and Galways have good IT courses. The UCD Comp sci is quite basic and isn't totally focused on computing. Rather you do some actual science subjects. Not too sure about Trinity but last I saw it had a very academic approach.

As far as beset facilities go a Uni won't have them. A more modern campus will. For instance I know NCI have very good computing labs however they are very restricted (Citrix based). Would you consider Scotland ? It's free to study there or you pay the same price as ireland can't remember. The courses in Edinburgh are really good!

Vokes · 23-09-2005 12:13am

damnyanks wrote:

The UCD Comp sci is quite basic and isn't totally focused on computing.

I heard that this particular course focuses mainly on Java programming, and that there's not much done with C/C++ development. Is this true?

DITs computer science degree seems to be a good all round one, focusing on C/C++ initially followed by Java later on.

I would agree though with the above that DCU's Comp Apps is the best of the bunch.

homeOwner · 23-09-2005 8:48am

Its been many years since I graduated from UCD with a comp sci degree so I dont know much about how it is run nowadays, but when I was in college the general thinking was the DCU degree was very good from a practical point of view, the people graduating could actually program and they went on work experience which is invaluable. It really helped getting the first job. The UCD course was at the time more theoretical and I have to admit I wasnt a good programmer when I came out of it although some in the class were. One of my lecturers stock phrase was "no self respecting computer scientist ever goes near a computer" and that sumed up the approach to comp sci in UCD.

But I have been employed in the IT industry for many years now and the UCD degree has really been a terriffic grounding. Although it is a cliche, UCD taught me how to learn and gave me the skills to pick things up myself.

If you are serious about persuing a career in IT, then stick to the universities. Its not the people who can program that earn the big bucks and climb the ladder. Its the people who see the big picture in an organisation, can grasp the essence of problems quickly and come up with a good solution. IMO that is what universities will teach you that you wont learn on a course, but it could take a few years to really appreciate it.

dent · 23-09-2005 5:34pm

Working as a programmer for a big oul multinational and there are programmers from various educational institutions here.

DCU and DIT are both held in high regard as they are known for there practical programming outlook.

Paul_D · 23-09-2005 7:01pm

First of all I want to thank everybody who replied to my post.
So to sum up all that, it seems that DCU would be the best choice. What about other facilities in DCU, like accommodation, lecture halls, computers etc?

2 damnyanks: Did you mean that Edinburgh University has better courses that irish ones or they are just good?

P.S. Would not the DCU course be very easy and I would have a feeling that I could have taught myself all that in one year instead of four? I used to learn a lot of things myself, I even study applied math for leaving cert without any help from the teachers.

Sarunas · 23-09-2005 8:12pm

Only been in accomodation in dcu few times, looks ok, but most people' places are messy...

lecture halls are good.

computers, not sure what they're going to do this year since they ripped out a lab of maybe 50 or so machines. The newer ones are decent spec(P4 2.8, 512mb ram, 2k pro), older ones iirc are P3 ~700, 256mb ram... all are dual booting 2k and suse 9.1 or 2. i think they do have ~500 machines for computing students.

Don't think it has been mentioned about dcu, but we had 50% failture/drop out rate this year, similar to last year.

About teaching your self, nope. You need a lot of practice in programming. First year is a breeze. I'll find out how the second year is very soon(starting on monday).

MrPinK · 23-09-2005 8:42pm

Paul_D wrote:

P.S. Would not the DCU course be very easy and I would have a feeling that I could have taught myself all that in one year instead of four? I used to learn a lot of things myself, I even study applied math for leaving cert without any help from the teachers.

The same could be said about nearly all courses. With a library card and an internet connection you can learn everything about anything. You won't have a degree to show how much you know at the end of it all though.

iggyman · 24-09-2005 8:56am

im thinkin of going there as well next year...to do computer apps..ive been there about ten times in fifth year doin web design courses,shadowing days and other activities...its modern ...has every thing you need...the computers are excellant they have more computers than any other third level institute in ireland..and best of all its only up the road from were i live..i recommend going there..but as someone said there is a a 50% drop out rate i wouldnt say youll have trouble with that and i hope i dont either..

damnyanks · 24-09-2005 9:08am

If you are interested in development or what ever it really doesn't matter where you go to study at the end of the day. You need to have an interest in what you are doing to see the big picture or be able to solve whatever problems exist.

The course at Edinburgh would be rated higher then all IT courses in the Republic of Ireland. The degree's up in Ulster are rated very well.

rsynnott · 24-09-2005 12:40pm

damnyanks wrote:

Not too sure about Trinity but last I saw it had a very academic approach.

And quite right too!

damnyanks wrote:

As far as beset facilities go a Uni won't have them. A more modern campus will. For instance I know NCI have very good computing labs however they are very restricted (Citrix based). Would you consider Scotland ? It's free to study there or you pay the same price as ireland can't remember. The courses in Edinburgh are really good!

We have quite good facilities for Computer Science students in Trinity. So do DCU.

SofaKing wrote:

I heard that this particular course focuses mainly on Java programming, and that there's not much done with C/C++ development. Is this true?

.

In general, if you're doing CS, the actual languages you use in college don't matter much. It's the concepts that matter.

Paul_D wrote:

P.S. Would not the DCU course be very easy and I would have a feeling that I could have taught myself all that in one year instead of four? I used to learn a lot of things myself, I even study applied math for leaving cert without any help from the teachers.

If you can already program, then the programming sections of any course are probably going to be old news to you, largely. However, you probably won't have done much low-level hardware stuff, for example, so that'll be new to you (assuming DCU do that).

And most decent compsci courses have high dropout rates at the moment, due to the crazily low entrance points they currently enjoy.

Civilian_Target · 24-09-2005 2:26pm

damnyanks wrote:

The course at Edinburgh would be rated higher then all IT courses in the Republic of Ireland. The degree's up in Ulster are rated very well.

Dunno about that - Queens and Jordanstown are supposed to be about equal in Computers these days - apparantly Queens used to have a really good dept, but they've really let it slide of late. I'm in Queens and I have to admit to not being impressed by their computers dept. From what I've heard, I'd rate TCD and DCU over either of them, but I don't think any of them are going to hold a candle to the big scientific UK uni's like Imperial, Cambridge, Durham, Leeds, Edinburough etc.

rsynnott · 24-09-2005 2:47pm

Trinity beat those colleges in a programming competition!

Okay, maybe that's not the best judge of department quality

scojones · 26-09-2005 12:07pm

Paul_D wrote:

So, what I understand it will be better if I avoid Institutes of Technology.

So Computer Science degrees in DCU, TCD, UCD are the best in Ireland?

2 madramor: you were saying that you personally think that master degrees are waste of time, but then you said that a lot of people do them to get a decent job. I confused.

If you ask me, BSc in Software Development in IT Tralee is the best course in Ireland, but I haven't been on all of the courses

Seriously though, I feel that Tralee far excels above the courses offered in some Universities. I'm basing this on the fact that I have friends in similar courses in UL and UCC, and I'm far more experienced than they are, and we both started college in the same year. I did work placement in Feb, and noticed that I knew a hell of alot more than people on the same work placement from UL, UCC and UCD.

My point here is not to rule out IT's. That, I feel, is a big mistake.

Zombrex · 26-09-2005 2:00pm

Any of the "big 3" would be fine - Computer Systems in U.L, Computer Applications in DCU and Computer er .. what ever its called in Trinity.

The trinity one is supposed to be more "acedemic", but some people like that. Others like the more hands on approch the other 2 do (not sure you even do work experience in Trinity).

If you can get into any one of those courses you will be fine. Really college is what you make of it, I wouldn't worry too much about the perfect course and worry more about the question are you going to study hard and work hard for the 4 years, cause you know its harder than it looks

If you do you will be flying, no matter which of the above you pick.

Plus everything is Masters and PhDs these days...

Zombrex · 26-09-2005 2:12pm

sjones wrote:

Seriously though, I feel that Tralee far excels above the courses offered in some Universities. I'm basing this on the fact that I have friends in similar courses in UL and UCC, and I'm far more experienced than they are, and we both started college in the same year. I did work placement in Feb, and noticed that I knew a hell of alot more than people on the same work placement from UL, UCC and UCD.

I found the the Universities and the ITs take different approches to teaching "computers".. the universities are more like "We will teach you how to 'program' then you can program in any language on any system", where as the ITs take the approache "This is Java. This is C++. This is Visual Basic" etc.

Each method has its advantages and disadvantages. You find the people from ITs tend to have a lot more actual programming experience, they have written a lot more stuff. But whether they understand the underlying concepts is less clear.

Universites focus more on the underlining concepts, meaning it is easier (if you paid attention) to adapt to new languages and ideas, you are not tied down to knowing Java but no idea about what that means in the wider sense of the industry. The problem is you get a whole load of graduates who can tell you the ins and outs of object orintated design, why it is good, the bad points, new ideas etc, but can't remember how to write a pointer in C++ because the last bit of actual code they wrote was in 2nd year (slight exaggeration but you get the point).

So really if you go Uni or IT you have to compensate yourself for the short coming of each approach.

If one is in an IT you have to make sure you understand the wider aspects of what you are learning, and understand that there exisits a whole world of thought beyond the limits of what you are taught in the IT. The amount of IT grads you meet who are completely oblivious to any other way of working than what they were told, and who think even formating a Java program in a different way is "wrong", is amazing.

If one is in Uni you have to make sure you remember that at the end of the day software engineering involves writing software, so learn the actual software language and keep writing code, even if you course projects are not making you do it.

my 2 cent

Zaph0d · 27-09-2005 7:14am

You might as well be on a course with smart people otherwise you'll be bored and the course will be taught at an unambitiously low level. So to an extent go for a course that has high entry requirements.

The university I went to emphasised concepts over specific technologies to the extent that when I graduated I'd never used a PC running windows. This wasn't a problem because you can self teach yourself the basics of any OS in a few days.

Try as they might, a university can't avoid putting youi in contact with some specific technologies so I'd done plenty of unix, c++ etc

One time I got a job on a project to translate a load of legacy code from one language to another. They had been struggling with the project for several years. None of the project team had even heard of compiler design, so they were never going to get anywhere. I'd forgotten most of what I'd learnt about compilers but at least I had a vague idea and could pick it up easily by rereading an old book.

run_Forrest_run · 27-09-2005 7:46am

madramor and anyone else who say that ITs should be avoided are talking thru their backside. I went to WIT and did a degree in Commercial Software Development and found to be very good in preparing people for the IT industry. I had an average week of 36 hours compared to a paltry 12-18 hour week for friends of mine who went to Uni. The ITs are great for hand-on work..far more practicals and easier to discuss issues with lecturers/tutors due to the smaller number in class sizes.
The one thing my course did not have but wish it did was work experience. I understand they have brought it in now alright which is a good move.
I thought the intellectual snobbery of university-going people was well dead but infortunately this does not seem to be the way!

dent · 27-09-2005 8:09am

Wicknight wrote:

I found the the Universities and the ITs take different approches to teaching "computers".. the universities are more like "We will teach you how to 'program' then you can program in any language on any system", where as the ITs take the approache "This is Java. This is C++. This is Visual Basic" etc.

I take you went to both then? I went to DIT and certainly didn't come across "This is Java. This is C++" while learning compiler theory and A.I.

The difference is that while learning the bigger picture we also discussed the practical application. I believe DCU takes a similar approach.

This also reflects in the science courses. My sister a PhD holder from UCD comments on the high standard of DIT graduates that she now works with.

Some of the comments made here reflect childish attitudes that will quickly be wiped out in a professional enviroment.

The bottom line is that you really should have an interest in the subject or you will either drop out or end up with a degree but no desire to continue into an "IT" profession.

rsynnott · 27-09-2005 1:13pm

Wicknight wrote:

The trinity one is supposed to be more "acedemic", but some people like that. Others like the more hands on approch the other 2 do (not sure you even do work experience in Trinity).

Nope, that we don't, tho by the end of our four years most people have worked in some form of IT over the summer and so on... Some people also contribute to open-source projects and similar, or do this .

Zaph0d wrote:

Try as they might, a university can't avoid putting youi in contact with some specific technologies so I'd done plenty of unix, c++ etc

Yes, sadly, gone are the days when they used things like LISP machines, which no-one would ever even THINK about using in the real world.

dent wrote:

practical

That word has no place in a university!

dent wrote:

The bottom line is that you really should have an interest in the subject or you will either drop out or end up with a degree but no desire to continue into an "IT" profession.

Sadly, this isn't exactly the case; a lot of people get through, and do have desire to continue into an IT "profession" (for the money, or whatever), but are complete dolts who shouldn't be let near a computer.

Paul_D · 27-09-2005 9:13pm

I want to thank again all the people who left their comments.

So, there are some candidates in order of my preferences:
DCU
CIT, LIT, DIT
UCD
TCD
Edinburgh University (just because it’s far away)

I’m still not sure which is better, because the more people say their opinions, the more I become uncertain. Then there are other problems, i’m mot irish national, so I have to pay fees, but some people say that because i will have my LC I will be treated like irish, so “free fees”. But nobody know anything exactly, even universities.

rsynnott · 27-09-2005 10:29pm

Paul_D wrote:

I’m still not sure which is better, because the more people say their opinions, the more I become uncertain. Then there are other problems, i’m mot irish national, so I have to pay fees, but some people say that because i will have my LC I will be treated like irish, so “free fees”. But nobody know anything exactly, even universities.

If you're a European citizen you only have to pay a small part of the fees. Otherwise, you probably have to pay the lot (assuming you're not an Irish citizen).

drfisher · 28-09-2005 9:43am

Paul_D wrote:

Then there are other problems, i’m mot irish national, so I have to pay fees, but some people say that because i will have my LC I will be treated like irish, so “free fees”. But nobody know anything exactly, even universities.

You will qualify for free fees an as EU citizen.

Have a look here:

http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/admissions_info/freefees.html

Then have a look here

https://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/ba/Introduction.php

Paul_D · 28-09-2005 6:50pm

unfortunately, I'm not eu national, so I have to pay full fees, something around 5K/year. Needless to say, that it is impossible.

:mad:
My school teacher said that universities can also grant me with free fees in some circumstances. But in what circumstances?

I'm planning to get LC with 580-600 points, would this be a good reason for granting free fee status? This question is more important for me rather than doubts about what college to go. It is very likely that I will go to the one which would say that I don’t have to pay anything.

ghostdancer · 28-09-2005 9:19pm

it's possible you could gain a scholarship to the university based upon the points you get, and how you do it certain subjects. I'm in DCU but i don't know exactly what sorta of scholarship scheme they run, although the information should be available on the DCU website.
you might also be eligible for Grants based upon your own personal circumstances, again I'm not sure of the info, but it should be on the website.

I'm doing 2nd yr CA in DCU, and i'm pretty happy with it. it is tough for most people, and there is a large dropout rate in first year, but i'd put that down to the low points requirements for it recently. If you're going for 580-600 points in LC, then I'd imagine you won't have any problems understanding most of the details of the course, and probably have a sensible attitude towards working and learning. Maths is a core part of first year, but it's no-where near as advanced as LC maths is, more like JC maths. Physics is an option, but it's not even close to LC level either.

Paul_D · 29-09-2005 3:08pm

ghostdancer wrote:

but it's no-where near as advanced as LC maths is, more like JC maths. Physics is an option, but it's not even close to LC level either.

you must be joking, don't tell me that it is sooo bad

, i hoped that finnaly i will have a real math in a third level :cool: , but it seems to be even worse. does it depends on college?

rsynnott · 29-09-2005 5:32pm

Paul_D wrote:

you must be joking, don't tell me that it is sooo bad , i hoped that finnaly i will have a real math in a third level :cool: , but it seems to be even worse. does it depends on college?

There WAS some moderately difficult maths in Trinity's CS course, but people entering last year and this year get a new "combined CS and ICT" course with much of it excised. (My year was the last to get the original course) To be honest, if you want to do a maths-oriented course, do maths or theoretical physics; don't do CS. (If I was able to start again, I'd do theoretical physics).

drfisher · 30-09-2005 1:10pm

rsynnott wrote:

There WAS some moderately difficult maths in Trinity's CS course, but people entering last year and this year get a new "combined CS and ICT" course with much of it excised.

That's not true, and I can explain why but it's a lot of detail for this discussion.

To be honest, if you want to do a maths-oriented course, do maths or theoretical physics; don't do CS. (If I was able to start again, I'd do theoretical physics).

That probably is true.

MrPinK · 30-09-2005 1:53pm

Paul_D wrote:

you must be joking, don't tell me that it is sooo bad , i hoped that finnaly i will have a real math in a third level :cool:

Not everyone in the class will have done higher level maths for the Leaving Cert, so 1st year maths is ment to get everyone up to speed for the Probability and Linear Algebra modules in 2nd year. I wouldn't call it junior cert level though, and it does get harder is 2nd year.

drfisher · 30-09-2005 3:41pm

MrPinK wrote:

Not everyone in the class will have done higher level maths for the Leaving Cert, so 1st year maths is ment to get everyone up to speed for the Probability and Linear Algebra modules in 2nd year. I wouldn't call it junior cert level though, and it does get harder is 2nd year.

TCD Computer Science still requires a Higher C3 in LC Maths (or equivalent).

The TCD Computer Science course has also just been re-accredited by the IEI, which means graduates can join the IEI and use the title Chartered Engineer (CEng). I think DCU is in the process of being evaluated for re-accreditataion. DCU's is currently being re-evaluated.

Paul_D · 30-09-2005 7:21pm

ok, going back to Edinburgh University.
In their web-site they say that their school of informatics is the best in the UK and one of the best in the world. What you think about that?

How would irish or uk employers would look at degree from Edinburgh. Would this be treated better than from UCD, TCD, or DCU?

damnyanks · 30-09-2005 10:32pm

Do a search for University tables in the uk it will show how it is etc. They have people who are " big players" int eh w3c ut I cant mrembver his name. Bu t really a degree is a gdree.

DublinWriter · 01-10-2005 9:02am

Paul_D wrote:

About two years ago I started develop my own OS in protected mode using assembler, but because it was so difficult I left out it.

If you're into that level of programming then do a Computer Science degree in TCD/UCD.

I know it sounds snobbish, but employers are more impressed with a TCD/UCD degree. Before I get flamed, it's just the way the world works.

Points for IT courses are now at an all time low.

drfisher · 01-10-2005 10:30am

Paul_D wrote:

ok, going back to Edinburgh University.
In their web-site they say that their school of informatics is the best in the UK and one of the best in the world. What you think about that?

Edinburgh are very good - they have a 5* rating from the research assessment exercise (RAE). The RAE is UK specific and only 5 institutions have a 5* rating for Computer Science.

Paul_D wrote:

How would irish or uk employers would look at degree from Edinburgh. Would this be treated better than from UCD, TCD, or DCU?

I honestly don't know how much attention employers pay to RAE ratings, which are based on research rather than teaching.

If we're talking ratings, TCD was the only Irish university to be ranked in the top 100 world-wide for science, engineering and IT by the Times Higher Education Supplement. (Have you guessed who I work for yet?

)

Giblet · 01-10-2005 12:19pm

Tallaght is a great place for Comp Sci.

Java, VB, C++, C# and J3D. A great grounding for any programmer, and you also get a CCNA at the end of it all.

It's sad that the points have dropped so low due to everyone wanting to go to the bigger University courses. Tallaght has some great facilities for Computing. Most PC's are new 2.8 prescotts with 512 ram and XP.

rsynnott · 01-10-2005 12:25pm

Giblet wrote:

VB

*Hisses*

Giblet wrote:

It's sad that the points have dropped so low due to everyone wanting to go to the bigger University courses.

Points have fallen everywhere; fewer people with no interest are getting into it for the money, fortunately. They'll readjust in time.

Giblet wrote:

Tallaght has some great facilities for Computing. Most PC's are new 2.8 prescotts with 512 ram and XP.

Gah, Trinity only has P4-2.4Ghz! Rather better operating system on some of them, tho

Giblet · 01-10-2005 3:51pm

Ah the VB is only a semester long, with some knowledge of database management added on later. It's mostly Java for the first 2 years, with C++ and C# coming later.

Calina · 01-10-2005 4:30pm

Paul,

speaking personally, what I would recommend is that you go and get a copy of the course details for all the institutes mentioned here and compare the data in them with what you want to achieve. I know you say that you find them all the same but that, I must confess has not been my experience.

How available that information is varies from one college to another but I have to say in terms of research that I've done in recent years, the websites of DCU, UL, DIT and UCC are particularly helpful in assessing the contents of a course. UCD as far as I remember was totally lousy but that's my experience. I'd mixed feelings about Trinity's documentation. If what you want is not online, you need to get after them.

In terms of the quality of a course/where best to go - a lot depends on what you yourself want to get out of the course - you say you want to go into software development. But this is an option from all of them, and how successful you are depends as much on you as it does on the course you follow. So I'd be reluctant, in your position, to put too much faith in what everyone else says. Your ability to get a software development job out of college is not merely dependent on the university name adorning your degree in other words.

That said, although I think there are a handful of software engineering courses dotted around the UK scene, I think too strong a focus on software development is quite limiting.

People's experiences are different. I loathe seeing IT vs university debates because in the end, they develop into slanging matches which helps no one. I also would venture to say that some of the generalisations that I've seen here are a bit sad - for example, it's not strictly speaking true to say everyone does a masters to get a job. It wasn't my rationale for starting down the road - I have a job and a nice one which I quite like, thanks, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to delve a little further into the field.

The other point which I would make is this: what you want now may not necessarily match what you will want in four years time. I studied modern languages first time out - and loved it. Six years after I graduated, I was working as a systems programmer. And I love it.

What you need most out of your course is the ability to adapt to changing technologies and environments. I get slightly weary to see people listing off all the languages you can learn in college. What matters is that you learn the ability to learn different languages because goddamnit, new ones keep coming along. New software engineering fads keep coming along as well. Learning does not end the day you finish your last exam.

That said, when I was looking to go back to college (part time) I checked with a couple of people who work in the IT industry and they felt that reputation wise, DCU was probably the best. I chose them anyway because what they were offering best suited my needs. But again, as much depends on you as it does on which ever third level institution you choose. It amazed me the number of people - even part time students working fulltime - who whinged because they weren't being spoonfed.

It's not the business of college to spoonfeed you. It's your business to exploit it as fully as you can and realistically, doesn't matter which college it is then.

Paul_D · 01-10-2005 9:14pm

Thanks, Calina, for your huuuge reply.
Actually after all the discussions I become even more apathetic where to go. I looked through the courses descriptions in some of the universities and again more or less it seems that everybody offering the same things. All have main subjects like programming and math. The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it

). But they are expensive and I’m not gone to go there.

So, you are also saying that DCU probably would be the best choice. I’ve never been there and I’m planning to visit that place. BTW, what bus should I take if I want to go there from Dublin bus station?

P.S. 2 Calina: you said that you were working as a systems programmer. That’s my favorite thing. That’s why I love low-level programming.

And another question, how to access exam-papers in DCU? I want to see would I be able to that.

Zaph0d · 01-10-2005 10:50pm

You should take the time to walk around the various campuses to see if you think you'd be happy there. You'll be there for four years and you make many of your friends for life there.

Teaching quality in may 3rd level institutions is very variable. Most lecturers have had no training and the most brilliant academics are often unable to explain the basics. In many cases you will end up teaching yourself the courses.

On the other hand, having very intelligent lecturers can be inspirational.

Giblet · 01-10-2005 11:05pm

Paul_D wrote:

They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it ).

Discrete maths isn't some crazy subject, you do it in first year in Tallaght aswell.

rsynnott · 02-10-2005 2:55am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_Mathematics

Calina · 02-10-2005 11:19am

Paul_D wrote:

Thanks, Calina, for your huuuge reply.
Actually after all the discussions I become even more apathetic where to go. I looked through the courses descriptions in some of the universities and again more or less it seems that everybody offering the same things. All have main subjects like programming and math. The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it ). But they are expensive and I’m not gone to go there.

So, you are also saying that DCU probably would be the best choice. I’ve never been there and I’m planning to visit that place. BTW, what bus should I take if I want to go there from Dublin bus station?

P.S. 2 Calina: you said that you were working as a systems programmer. That’s my favorite thing. That’s why I love low-level programming.

And another question, how to access exam-papers in DCU? I want to see would I be able to that.

As far as I know, you need a valid DCU logon to access most of DCU's exam papers.

To get to DCU from the bus station, you need to go to O'Connell Street which is about a 5 minute walk away and pick up an 11 or 13. I think the 19A goes there as well - at least it used to.

DCU generally does an open day sometime in November - recommend trying to get there for it as you will meet some of the lecturers and probably some current students as well. But I recommend you do the same for say UL and Trinity as well. Even allowing for the fact that DCU appears to be getting most of the votes here, there are still different factors involved in making that decision and gut instinct is one of them.

You also have to remember that just about every comp sci course in the world is going to have a core set of subjects that you'll have to cover along the lines of maths, datastructures, programming concepts. So I wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that all the courses appear to be the same. In essence, they will have some very similar points. I can't speak for the others, but if you spend sometime exploring DCU's School of Computing website, you should tumble across information regarding degree projects which will give you an idea of how some people are exploiting their course.

TBH, if you're starting to find the opinions and comments coming at you here a bit bewildering, I'd take a step backwards and reassess exactly what you want to do. I wouldn't, for example. waste time looking at what Imperial College offers if you know you're not going to be going there for cost reasons or whatever. I studied in London for a year and yes, it's not exactly cheap, even if you don't have to deal with fees. The less sure you are of what exactly you want to do, the more bewildering an array of information will be.

What I do in systems programming is very, very different to software development. I keep a mission critical system running 24 hours a day. I haven't at this point, had the impression that that's really what you want to do. I write assembler code every day of my life though. Except Saturdays and Sundays, I mean.

Paul_D · 02-10-2005 6:41pm

Calina wrote:

I haven't at this point, had the impression that that's really what you want to do.

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

Sarunas · 02-10-2005 7:08pm

open source operating systems are great place to learn systems programming.

lurk around in lkml, freebsd lists such as arch, current, hackers and cvs-src. maybe netbsd, openbsd or even dragonflybsd and you'll near lots!

then when you know enough, start submitting few simple patches.

ps: its much easier to lurk in many places with gmane and thunderbird. but keep in mind that you have LC too, cause some of those lists are very high traffic.

pps: its easier to learn(for me at least) on bsd because you have a complete operating system, not just a kernel(linux).

rsynnott · 02-10-2005 7:39pm

Paul_D wrote:

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

The basics aren't really dramatically difficult at all.

Calina · 02-10-2005 7:51pm

Paul_D wrote:

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

Your last question is loaded - effectively the market changes and the salaries vary according to the market. It depends on your rarity value. For the time being, I guess I do better than quite a few applications programmers, but there are some who would be similar scale and higher. And I think if you were to look at contracting rates, they vary according to what there's greater demand for at any given point in time.

It's not really your level of smartness which is holding you up at this stage - it's your level of knowledge. I wouldn't necessarily worry about it at this stage. If you're aiming for the LC that you claim to be aiming for, you'd be smart enough - you just have to learn it.

drfisher · 02-10-2005 8:09pm

Paul_D wrote:

The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year

Discrete maths is a major part of the maths course in TCD computer science, and is becoming more so as the syllabus is being updated.

Other nive stuff in TCD includes: basic assembler in first year as a means of introducing students to computer architecture (https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Michael.Manzke/1ba3.html) and in second year you get to build your own (basic) computer from basic components (68000 CPU, programmable logic for memory mapping, etc) and write a simple OS (if time permits!). We also have some substantial practical team-based programming projects in both second and third year.

Look here for examples of some of the fourth year projects on offer this year:

https://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/ss-projects/

You really should talk to the people running these courses. Browsing web sites isn't enough. PM me if you want to talk to staff and students in TCD and visit our facilities.

Third Level Institutions

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