Abortion Poll [Who voted]

daveirl · 06-03-2002 9:59am #1

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips · 06-03-2002 10:35am

I can't vote, as I am not living in Ireland at the moment.

But please, please, vote NO. What kind of sick country would insist that 14 year old rape victims be forced to bear the child of the rapist. If the yes camp wins then Ireland will be the laughing stock of Europe.

Bertie needs to go. He's worse than Bush.

flyz · 06-03-2002 10:59am

haven't voted yet but will be voting no this evening

koneko · 06-03-2002 11:11am

Can't vote

Not an Irish citizen.
If I could I would vote no aswell. Ditto to what Lennoxchips said.

I get the feeling a No vote will be passed, but we'll see tomorrow evening I suppose. Thinking about a Yes vote passing is just too scary a thought for the 21st century.

gandalf · 06-03-2002 11:45am

Voting a big NO this evening.

Gandalf.

Hobbes · 06-03-2002 12:11pm

After reading the full thing I'll be voting no as well. Voting yes would change nothing except those who have contacted the police (eg. rape) would be restricted. I can't see how that is fair.

Bard · 06-03-2002 12:25pm

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
What kind of sick country would insist that 14 year old rape victims be forced to bear the child of the rapist. If the yes camp wins then Ireland will be the laughing stock of Europe.

Voting yes won't bring that situation about. Nobody will be forced to bear a child. It will still be illegal to get an abortion in Ireland except in certain circumstances, whichever way the vote goes, as far as I'm aware. This isn't a vote on abortion itself, from what I can see... it's a vote on the special, rare and restricted circumstances under which it can become available. Women can still travel to England, which, as the government representative stated on the Late Late Show debate, is outside the jurisdiction of Irish law. They will still be entitled to an abortion if their own life is in danger, although possibly not if suicidal - depending on the outcome.

I haven't voted yet, and am still unsure what way I'll vote or even IF I will. There's a lot of people who don't properly understand the issue, and that's hardly surprising given the way the arguments have been put forward by both sides. Personally, my recommendation is that if you don't understand the issue - DON'T VOTE at all. Yes, in that case you're essentially letting someone else vote for you, but if you can't make an informed decision yourself, you might as well not make one at all.

I'm not sure I DO believe that suicidal tendencies are grounds for abortion. I'm more inclined to say they're not. SO MANY people would be faking it... - but I'm not going to go into that.

I have to say that I'd fully support it if voting in the referendum was only open to women... but that's a different matter, I guess...

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 12:29pm

But please, please, vote NO. What kind of sick country would insist that 14 year old rape victims be forced to bear the child of the rapist. If the yes camp wins then Ireland will be the laughing stock of Europe.

Bertie needs to go. He's worse than Bush.

I voted Yes.

The reasons that rape is not justification for an abortion are:

a. It still results in the intentional destruction of innocent human life.

b. False claims of rape could be made leading to abortion on demand.

Dr. Loon · 06-03-2002 12:31pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I voted Yes.

The reasons that rape is not justification for an abortion are:

a. It still results in the intentional destruction of innocent human life.

b. False claims of rape could be made leading to abortion on demand.

So simple when you put it like that really

leejon · 06-03-2002 12:36pm

Vote NO!!

Let women decide what they want to do!!

At least women can still go to the UK, since they are being forced to leave their country for help.... or will Bertie the Burke try and legilate that next!!!

Meh · 06-03-2002 12:37pm

Originally posted by Bard
Nobody will be forced to bear a child.

Incorrect. Remember that case with the raped pregnant 13 year old who was in the care of the Eastern Health Board? Under the new amendment, the Health Board would not be able to get her an abortion, whether in Ireland or England. From the Government's own Green Paper:

2.23 Aspects of the law relating to abortion were considered in A and B -v- Eastern Health Board, Mary Fahy, C and the Attorney General, High Court, 28th November 1997. This case involved a thirteen-year-old girl who had been raped and was pregnant as a result. The Eastern Health Board, which had subsequently taken the girl into its care, became aware that she was pregnant and, in accordance with the girl's wishes, obtained orders from the District Court allowing it to take the girl abroad for an abortion and to make all necessary arrangements for same.

2.24 C's parents sought to challenge these orders by way of judicial review. However, Geoghegan J. accepted that, where evidence had been given to the effect that the pregnant young woman might commit suicide unless allowed to terminate her pregnancy, there was a real and substantial risk to her life and such termination was therefore a permissible medical treatment of her condition where abortion was the only means of avoiding such a risk. In other words, the test formulated in the X case was applied in the C case also.

And the judge's remarks in the case:

A court of law, in considering the welfare of an Irish child in Ireland and considering whether on health grounds a termination of pregnancy was necessary, must, I believe be confined to considering the grounds for termination which would be lawful under the Irish Constitution and cannot make a direction authorising travel to another jurisdiction for a different kind of abortion.

In other words, the right to travel does not allow the Health Board to send the girl abroad to get an abortion which would be illegal in this country.

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 12:46pm

In other words, the right to travel does not allow the Health Board to send the girl abroad to get an abortion which would be illegal in this country.

Quite rightly. Public money should not be spent to allow someone avail of a service that is constitutionally prohibited in this country.

Giblet · 06-03-2002 12:51pm

Posted By Bard:
I'm not sure I DO believe that suicidal tendencies are grounds for abortion. I'm more inclined to say they're not. SO MANY people would be faking it... - but I'm not going to go into that.

The incedences of this happening were very low and this referendum dosen't help it stay that way.
The referendum should never have happened.
A rape victim should never be made to have a child and it is not always an option to go elsewhere to get an abortion.
Most rape victims would feel suicidal at the prospect of giving birth to a unwanted child. Just imagine her having to deal with the child afterwards, its not going to help matters after she'd been raped only to have to have a child. Its amazing that the people who'd most likely have abortions from rape are the girls who cant vote, and are getting the decisions made for them by people who probably never would have to go thorugh with what they do.
Sorry for going into it Bard

Lennoxschips · 06-03-2002 12:52pm

Women can still travel to England, which, as the government representative stated on the Late Late Show debate, is outside the jurisdiction of Irish law. They will still be entitled to an abortion if their own life is in danger, although possibly not if suicidal - depending on the outcome.

The X-Case ruling permitted a 14 year old rape victim to travel to England to get an abortion. By voting yes, you are voting to overturn the X-case ruling. It's that simple. This is why I believe strongly in a no vote.

The government representitive was misinformed.

WhiteWashMan · 06-03-2002 12:55pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Quite rightly. Public money should not be spent to allow someone avail of a service that is constitutionally prohibited in this country.

hahaha,
what else whould be introduced, maybe take the right to vote taken away from women?
you do realilse you sound like a facist dont you?
you are one of these monster raving mad looney right wing pro lifers who like to parade around with aborted feteuses hanging from their necks telling us how evil we are for making our own desicions and living our own lives.
maybe you can give me advice on what id like to have for dinner tonight?

Hobbes · 06-03-2002 1:03pm

http://www.ireland.com/focus/abortion/

From reading that (full bill is there) voting yes actally allows abortion.

1. The doctor can abort a child if he believes the mothers life is at risk. Before the doctor had to take the childs life over the mother. (except in the case of suicide).

2. It allows people to travel abroad to get an abortion even if it is known that they are doing so to get an abortion.

The 12 years imprisonment is based on the abortion happening in Ireland and doesn't fall under the valid reason above.

So all you right to lifers just got scammed.

Voting no will change nothing.

Bard · 06-03-2002 1:10pm

Originally posted by Lennoxschips

The X-Case ruling permitted a 14 year old rape victim to travel to England to get an abortion. By voting yes, you are voting to overturn the X-case ruling. It's that simple. This is why I believe strongly in a no vote.

The government representitive was misinformed.

She was allowed go, - NOT because she was 14, NOT because she was a victim of rape, but because she was suicidal and the judge at the time considered that a sufficient threat to her life to leave her go.

Nothing will overturn the X-case ruling. Her case is dead and gone, and I'm sure she herself wishes not to be in the headlines once again.

However, SINCE the X-case, it seems that suicidal tendencies have been accepted as a sufficient threat to life to allow an abortion. The government are proposing that the threat of suicide be removed from the equation and that it no longer should be considered as sufficient threat to the womans life to warrant an abortion. I actually agree with them. Suicide, whatever way you look at it, is one of the most (if not THE most) idiotic and selfish/self-centred acts any person can carry out... and it's even worse when you are with child. Also, there's plenty of girls/women who will use this as a failsafe fall-back if they DO get pregnant and don't want the baby - they'll just claim that they're suicidal - fake it, essentially... and get their abortion approved.

Then again, those who claim that there are too many legal loopholes in this legislation to allow it go through have a valid point. Voting NO may force them to redraft it and present a better written and better explained proposed amendment to the electorate some time in the future.

Personally, I'm still undecided on the issues, but not undecided on whether I'll vote or not (... I will vote)...

Regardless of how I vote, however, I think the No vote will win out.

Meh · 06-03-2002 1:12pm

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
The X-Case ruling permitted a 14 year old rape victim to travel to England to get an abortion.

Incorrect. The X-Case ruling permitted the victim to have an abortion. It had nothing to say about travel to another country.

Even if the current referendum is passed, there will still be a right to travel in the Constitution.

Meh · 06-03-2002 1:15pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Public money should not be spent to allow someone avail of a service that is constitutionally prohibited in this country.

I agree absolutely. All we differ on is the question of what services should be constitutionally prohibited in this country

WhiteWashMan · 06-03-2002 1:16pm

Originally posted by Hobbes
http://www.ireland.com/focus/abortion/

Voting no will change nothing.

i think thats the point.
voting yes appears to tighten up the belt on abortion while voting no really doesnt change anything.

its a stupid referendum. surely ireland should be taking steps to legalise abortion totally. not play stupid symantecs with the constitution

Cake Fiend · 06-03-2002 1:17pm

If I make it back home in time tonight, I'll be voting No.

flyz · 06-03-2002 1:18pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I voted Yes.

The reasons that rape is not justification for an abortion are:

a. It still results in the intentional destruction of innocent human life.

b. False claims of rape could be made leading to abortion on demand.

Are you saying the same about incest??

And what about only certain doctors being legally allowed to perform an abortion when necessary??
Imagine your wife was pregnant and needed medicial assistance immediately. Are you happy with the fact that if she got to one hospitial that the doctor would turn around and say "UhOh, we need to abort this baby now to save your life, but I'm not legally allowed to, so we're going to have to send you to the nearest hospitial that is allowed to, which is an hour away." By then she could be dead. By voting yes you're willing to risk that.
Plus if the doctor in the first hospitial does decide to do what he can to save your wifes life then both he and your wife risk 12 years imprisonment.

A load of bollix.

Bard · 06-03-2002 1:19pm

Originally posted by Hobbes

Voting no will change nothing.

that's the idea...

the referendum is about whether we want to make the proposed change to the State's constitution.

if a NO vote goes through, nothing can be changed :- i.e.: the status quo remains.

Originally posted by flyz

"UhOh, we need to abort this baby now to save your life, but I'm not legally allowed to, so we're going to have to send you to the nearest hospitial that is allowed to, which is an hour away."

[/i]

As far as I'm aware, if a pregnancy or labour presents a real danger to the life of the mother, then that is the special case in which abortion will be allowed. It's the threat of death by suicide that's the main issue,- not by an actual physical problem caused by the pregnancy.

Giblet · 06-03-2002 1:23pm

One thing ive noticed about the prolife campaigns of the past, is the showing of dead feteuses on posters, with slogans such as "THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN" and so on.
It's not like it gonna happen in my house, and i would have never seen it if it wasn't for them, but it doesn't make me change my mind, it just make me think that prolifers are sick f**ks, doctors are prepared for such things and are the only people who'd generally see such things, so i ask myself, what is the point.
Sure people may have their minds changed, but i doubt the showing of dead babies helped anyone eat the lunch and bring their kids into town.

smoke.me.a.kipper · 06-03-2002 1:32pm

i will vote, but im un-decided at the moment.

Goodshape · 06-03-2002 1:36pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
i think thats the point.
voting yes appears to tighten up the belt on abortion while voting no really doesnt change anything.

Not registerd to vote. But if I was, I would vote no. Same reasoning as WWM.

Hobbes · 06-03-2002 1:40pm

Originally posted by flyz

By voting yes you're willing to risk that.

Argh.. will people ever fecking read the whole bill.

If you vote yes the doctor will be allowed perform an abortion if the mothers life is at risk but not in the case of suicide.

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) of this section, abortion does not include the carrying out of a medical procedure by a medical practitioner at an approved place in the course of which or as a result of which unborn human life is ended where that procedure is, in the reasonable opinion of the practitioner, necessary to prevent a real and substantial risk of loss of the womans life other then by self-destruction.

Meh · 06-03-2002 1:46pm

Originally posted by Hobbes
If you vote yes the doctor will be allowed perform an abortion if the mothers life is at risk but not in the case of suicide.

Originally posted by flyz:
we're going to have to send you to the nearest hospitial that is allowed to, which is an hour away." By then she could be dead. By voting yes you're willing to risk that.

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST. flyz is talking about the "approved place" provision of the legislation.

Typedef · 06-03-2002 1:52pm

I have to ask.

Why is the method of conception relevant to the right of life of the child in question?

Why is a child concieved of rape not entitled to the same right of life as a child who was not?

I'm not asking about the psychological implications for the mother here what I am asking is why some people believe that a baby concieved of rape is any less entitled to life then it's peer who is concieved through lack of use of contraception, for example?

It seems totally wrong to subscribe human rights in such an arbitrary way. Does this mean that IVF children don't have a right to life too? Does this mean that babies who are deemed to be 'deformed' are not entitled to life?
If so, what about the author of under the eye of the clock, he was handicapped, so would you therefore argue he should have been aborted and his book never written?
What about Christy Brown, maybe he should have been 'terminated too'. Maybe if his conception had been through rape or incest that would have made his termination ok, but if it had been through marriage and consent, then that would have given him right to life, but not before.
No, I cannot accept this argument, you cannot persecute the child for the sins of the father.

Lennoxschips · 06-03-2002 1:58pm

The X-case in question invlolved a 14 -year old rape victim. I suggest you think what you would do if you had a 14 year old daughter who was raped.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 2:03pm

[nice start to your arguement]

This is a f*cking democracy,
vote no. WHY??? because I believe that
firstly women should be protected over the child they bear, first and foremost.

secondly, democracies are built on freedom of choice, now while i realise that this particular referendum is about suicide as grounds for abortion, rather than free-for-all abortion, i think it is stupid that in this day and age women must travel abroad for abortions. They should be able to choose, its simple, if your against abortion, then when ur in that situation, go through with the pregnancy, but DONT STAGNATE this democracy by forcing others to not have abortions, just because YOU are against it. I believe that if these aformentioned women will travel abroad ANYWAY, then why not just allow abortions here? I think that if we vote no, it will pave the way to allow abortions, and as its a democracy, you choose wether to have or have not, as you believe, rather than not cos 1 group are against it. These same fanatics would persecute you if they knew youd travelled abroad for an abortion (first hand experience)

What next? the morning after pill (already questioned) the contraceptive pill??? THE CONDOM!????? oooh godfearing catholics are we, us irish, why St.Paddy would turn in his grave.

cop on, dont let these hippy tree-huggers and bishops change your decisions with their stupid slogans, and the govt with their sneaky vote yes if your against and no if your for!!!! what sort of a vote is that?! confusing or what?.

Decide for yourself, if your daughter/sister/friend/girlfriend was suicidal (and ive known one, and believe me theyre not all "FAKING IT" as some MUPPET put it earlier) would you want her to be able to have an abortion to save her life?
:rolleyes:

We all no the answer to that one, when ur in the situation for real, or close to it, its funny how your perspective can change quite quickly.

Faking suicide indeed BARD you should have more sense, not EVERYONE fakes suicide, ive lost two close friends to it.

and as for you DR.LOON? false claims of rape, fair enough, but is that justification to ignore REAL claims of rape? [snipped]

I for 1 am voting no.

[Morphéus - I suggest you read the guidelines before you post again - keep it civil you will get more respect and notice of your point of view - Gandalf]

flyz · 06-03-2002 2:05pm

Originally posted by Bard

As far as I'm aware, if a pregnancy or labour presents a real danger to the life of the mother, then that is the special case in which abortion will be allowed. It's the threat of death by suicide that's the main issue,- not by an actual physical problem caused by the pregnancy.

Special case yes, but so special that only maternity hospitials will be allowed to perform it.
Death by suicide might be the main issue but that doesn't mean that people should forget about the other issue.

At the moment then any doctor can save the mothers life but if there is a yes vote today then only certain doctors will be legally allowed. Granted that probably won't stop doctors doing their job either and risk the imprisonment.

There are 2 complex issues with the referendum, and people only seem to be concentrating on one of the issues and letting the other slide by.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 2:09pm

whoops....

by the

the govt with their sneaky vote yes if your against and no if your for!!!! what sort of a vote is that?! confusing or what?.

i meant that you vote YES if your AGAINST Abortion by threat of suicide and NO if your for.....

but it also reads. YES to change the constitution, and NO to leave it unchanged.

Not so confusing after all, heh heh heh

silly me.
:rolleyes:

Bard · 06-03-2002 2:10pm

Originally posted by Morphéus

Decide for yourself, if your daughter/sister/friend/girlfriend was suicidal (and ive known one, and believe me theyre not all "FAKING IT" as some MUPPET put it earlier) would you want her to be able to have an abortion to save her life?
:rolleyes:

...

Faking suicide indeed BARD you should have more sense, not EVERYONE fakes suicide, ive lost two close friends to it.

I said nothing about faking suicide ... that's just plain stupid. I said something however about faking suicidal tendencies... PRETENDING you are suicidal. You can't tell me this won't happen. It can't be one law for one group and one law for another, so if being suicidal is allowed as grounds for abortion, some women WILL pretend to be suicidal just so that they can obtain that abortion.

Now I don't even believe that being GENUINELY suicidal is grounds for abortion. Anyone who decides they're going to kill themselves is simply a selfish coward and little more. I've lost people to suicide too, and I'm not going to go into it any further than to say that yes- while they were friends,- and good ones at that, I lost a lot of respect for them when they committed that selfish cowardly act of taking their own lives.

I feel for them - I really do... but there are better ways of dealing with genuinely suicidal women than the killing of the child growing inside them.

Hobbes · 06-03-2002 2:14pm

Originally posted by Meh

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST. flyz is talking about the "approved place" provision of the legislation.

Comprehend yourself, he's saying by voting yes that is what is happening and it's the complete reverse.

Actually a lot of you screaming vote no seem to be putting forward arguments which are reverse to what they are telling you to vote for.

From what I have read of the bill is that people who are pregnant by rape can still get an abortion, just not in Ireland.

The only reason I can think for voting no is to stop a flawed law which isnt' going to change much going into place.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 2:17pm

Originally posted by Bard
Now I don't even believe that being GENUINELY suicidal is grounds for abortion. Anyone who decides they're going to kill themselves is simply a selfish coward and little more.

:rolleyes:

You shouldnt make comments about people when you are not fully aware of the situations that lead them down a path of self destruction.

Lets end this suicide stuff here, and keep on the abortion issue, it is a democracy, you have your own view, i have mine, next time tho, consider that maybe a little more compassion is required at times, when your talking about such sesitive issues.

gandalf · 06-03-2002 2:24pm

Lads keep this thread civil and do not personalise the arguements. Morphéus I have edited your 1st post because of those very reasons.

Gandalf.

Meh · 06-03-2002 2:25pm

Originally posted by Hobbes
Comprehend yourself, he's saying by voting yes that is what is happening and it's the complete reverse.

Your post was incorrect. If the referendum is passed, the doctor WILL NOT be allowed perform an abortion, unless they are in an "approved place". The legal situation at the moment is that any doctor can perform an abortion anywhere (subject to the abortion being legally allowed, of course). The point flyz was trying to make is that this is an important new restriction that people should be aware of.

amp · 06-03-2002 2:28pm

I voted no.

Everybody should vote! Wether yes or no. The ability to decide on our constitution is something our nation struggled for centuries to obtain. Even if you just went in and drew a picture of Bertie Ahern and wrote underneath "poopy-head" on the voting slip would at least be counted as a spoilt vote and be an expression of disgust against the stupidity of this referendum.

And can we please not start the debate again? Nothing will come of it because it always boils down to emotive non-quantifiable issues. The pro-lifers allways call a foetus a child/baby in order to imply it's a full human being with associated rights and the pr0-choicers try and argue against it. It's like banging your head against a brick wall.

flyz · 06-03-2002 2:28pm

Originally posted by Hobbes

Comprehend yourself, he's saying by voting yes that is what is happening and it's the complete reverse.

What she meant was that by voting yes only certain medicial institutions will be legally allowed to perform an abortion in a life/death situation.
And that I'm sorry but that is degrading the life of a woman.

IMHO If this referendum does go through then the a womans life will be worth so much less in the country.

Bard · 06-03-2002 2:36pm

Originally posted by Morphéus

:rolleyes:

You shouldnt make comments about people when you are not fully aware of the situations that lead them down a path of self destruction.

Thanks all the same, but the comments I make and informed opinions I come to are based on personal experiences, previous relationships and to a small degree an (admittedly limited) understanding of psychology.

Lets end this suicide stuff here, and keep on the abortion issue, it is a democracy, you have your own view, i have mine, next time tho, consider that maybe a little more compassion is required at times, when your talking about such sesitive issues.

Eh - why end the suicide stuff here? For most people, it is the cornerstone of what this referendum and this debate is all about.

It's my absolute right to believe what I believe is right or wrong. Screw compassion - suicide is wrong, - it's selfish, it's cowardly and it's a pathetic way to end a life. Sensitive issue or not, it's better to be cold and clinical with hard facts instead of fudging or fluffying them up for fear of hurting people's feelings. If you're suicidal then get help to get you out of that way of thinking. Claiming to be suicidal is a piss-poor reason for taking the life of an unborn child.

The arguments that the advocates of a 'NO' vote are putting forward in this thread are just about enough to make a person want to vote 'YES'... :rolleyes:

Irish_Ranger_IR · 06-03-2002 2:38pm

Going to vote after work.....

Dr. Loon · 06-03-2002 2:42pm

Originally posted by Morphéus
[nice start to your arguement]

Faking suicide indeed BARD you should have more sense, not EVERYONE fakes suicide, ive lost two close friends to it.

and as for you DR.LOON? false claims of rape, fair enough, but is that justification to ignore REAL claims of rape? [snipped]

I for 1 am voting no.

[Morphéus - I suggest you read the guidelines before you post again - keep it civil you will get more respect and notice of your point of view - Gandalf]

Sorry... I was actually being sarcastic in my previous post. I agree with you completely and would be voting NO if I was registered to vote. I would however, like to see what stream of abuse you sent at me, so I can abuse you back you motherfúcker.

flyz · 06-03-2002 2:50pm

Originally posted by Bard

Eh - why end the suicide stuff here? For most people, it is the cornerstone of what this referendum and this debate is all about.

It's my absolute right to believe what I believe is right or wrong. Screw compassion - suicide is wrong, - it's selfish, it's cowardly and it's a pathetic way to end a life. Sensitive issue or not, it's better to be cold and clinical with hard facts instead of fudging or fluffying them up for fear of hurting people's feelings. If you're suicidal then get help to get you out of that way of thinking. Claiming to be suicidal is a piss-poor reason for taking the life of an unborn child.

The arguments that the advocates of a 'NO' vote are putting forward in this thread are just about enough to make a person want to vote 'YES'... :rolleyes:

Bard say it was your 14 year old daughter who had gotten raped which would you prefer? her to have an abortion or for her to commit suicide??
Or even imagine that it was a case of incest and that it was a relation, someone who she trusted, that had raped her.
Chances are anyway that she'd be suicidial regardless of whether she got pregnant as a result or not.

Sit back think about that and tell me if you still think that suicide is cowardly in that case.

You have no idea how a woman would feel after being raped. It's one of the most horrifying things that she would go through in her life. And then to be raped by someone that you know and love and trust??
Personally I wouldn't blame her for taking her life and I hope I never have to go through it.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 3:01pm

im sure it was bad, but i cant remember what i wrote

sorry for any incovenience caused. Bard, whatever you say, il still vote no, i think personally that it leaves our democracy, that bit more pro-choice.

women should have the choice, its theirs to make, regardless about what us blokes say, they are the ones who must go through with it, and indeed suffer the most both psychologically and physically, whether they abort or not.

The thought of having to make the decision is enough to make you cringe, but throw the threat of losing both child and mother to suicide into the barrel and now make it illegal for the suicidal parent to have an abortion???? its a sh*tload of scariness.

Im sorry, but the whole pro-life group remind me of a nazi regime, no1 likes having pictures of obliterated foetuses stuffed in their faces over lunch, or infront of innocent kids out for a sunday lunch in town with mom and dad, they handed a leaflet to my cousin and shes 8 for christ sake, i wont go into details about the kind of questions she had for her dad after that, he was NOT impressed by these freaks.

If these neo-tree huggers tried a more political and informing approach rather than ..."ooh look, disgusted are you??? vote YES then" well, they might win more votes.

Not mine anyway, like i said, if ur against abortion, you'll never have one, if ur not, and decide u want it, your going to get it anyway. even after this referendum if someone IS suicidal, its not going to stop them going trans-Irish Sea to a clinic in Manchester for a nights stay, is it?

It really is only a matter of time before abortion (as it exists in other EU countries) is legalised in Ireland. Il be surprised if the Yes vote wins anyway.

il still vote

NONO NO NONO
NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO
NO NONO NONO

Bard · 06-03-2002 3:02pm

Originally posted by flyz

Personally I wouldn't blame her for taking her life and I hope I never have to go through it.

Well that's where you and I differ. I don't believe there IS an excuse for suicide. Sure! I wouldn't wish the kind of experiences of which you speak on anyone or their children but it doesn't change the fact that allowing abortion to those who claim to be suicidal is fundamentally flawed.

Then again, as you say, were it to be on my doorstep, it would be a different matter. It has been on my doorstep, - and it was a different matter. I'm not going to go into too much detail about it - not any more than to say that the girl in question had a miscarriage before she had finally decided to go to England for the abortion..- something which I was against. (Just to clarify, she wasn't a girlfriend of mine - I was only involved as a friend).

Anyway- I don't think I can debate this much further without revealing personal experiences that I don't particularly want to reveal. I have my opinion, and I'm sticking by it. Suicide is pathetic and the threat of it is not sufficient excuse in my opinion for having an abortion.

Hobbes · 06-03-2002 3:05pm

Originally posted by flyz

Bard say it was your 14 year old daughter who had gotten raped which would you prefer? her to have an abortion or for her to commit suicide??

Hmm but if he votes yes she can still have an abortion? But if he votes no she can have an abortion! This Kirk'ish logic is going to make my head explode!

Bard · 06-03-2002 3:13pm

correct me if I'm wrong here, please...

whichever way you vote, the practice of abortion is still illegal in the Republic of Ireland except under certain special and strictly defined circumstances, where the womans life is put seriously at risk by pregnancy or labour.

however, voting yes will increase the penalty for practising abortion to 12 years imprisonment.

whichever way you vote, women still have the right to information on abortion in other states.

whichever way you vote, women still have the right to travel to obtain an abortion in another state where the local laws permit her to do so.

voting yes will remove the threat of suicide as a "sufficient threat to the womans life" - making it no longer part of the "special circumstances" under which abortion would be permitted in the Republic of Ireland.

voting no will keep the threat of suicide as part of those "special circumstances".

... all present and correct, yes?

Frank Grimes · 06-03-2002 3:17pm

That's exactly how I read the situation Bard. I voted no.

Meh · 06-03-2002 3:19pm

Originally posted by Bard
however, voting yes will increase the penalty for practising abortion to 12 years imprisonment.

It will also restrict the locations in which abortions can be performed to certain "approved locations". As opposed the the situation now, where legal abortions may be carried out anywhere.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 3:21pm

well ive been there too, my ex's sister asked me to advise her on wether or not she should have an abortion.

I refused to tell her yes or no, i said its up to you, il support you whatever you do. She went to England and had an abortion, more of convenience than anything suicide related. She knew then that i was in favor of abortion being legalised in Ireland, but told me that she appreciated that i didnt influence her decision, by refusing to tell her what i thought she should do, i listened to her talk about it, and why she wanted one, and when she said she had made her final decision, i said, I support your decision, same as if she's said she'd keep it.

This same girls friend abused her over her decision, and hated her for months after. Why? this other girl was not in the situation? it wasnt her decision to make/influence?

Anyway my pont is that you cannot and should not tell a person whether they can or cannot have an abortion, just because of your beliefs. The decision is theirs to make, not ours.

this is getting far and away from this threads subject.

Abortion by threat of suicide is a very real thing, Ireland still has one of the highest youth suicide gender ratios in the world. Recent research indicated a ratio of over 7:1 for 15-24 year olds.

thus you cannot say that a person who says they are suicidal because of a pregnancy, may be faking it, these statistics say otherwise.

But you decide to hide your head in the sand by saying suicide is pathetic, and therefore you vote in favor of changing the constitution?

A suicidal person is usually suffering severe psychological trauma for one reason or another, and often does a very good job of hiding it.

Thus the oft expressed "But our Mary was full of life, she had no reason to take her life, she was looking forward to having this baby, especially since the court case was finished and the rapist got 18 months jail for assualt and rape" alas for poor Mary, her own family didnt even notice how distressed she was, what a way to go?

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