Getting outdrawn with AA, KK, QQ

masterK · 01-02-2006 11:41AM #1

I as looking for some advice from some of you experts. I've been playing small stakes cash games for a couple of months and had been doing reasonably well. However in the last two weeks I've had a bit of a dip, it has been the same situation each time that has killded me, being outdrawn when I had a high pair.

Pre-flop I've been quite aggressive when dealt AA, KK, QQ, I usually raise about 10BB in 10/20 games and always seem to get 2 or 3 callers. Post flop I still try and play aggressively until I can see some indication of being beaten but usually just get called down. Each time I seem to be getting outdrawn on the turn and the river, some times by players who were dealt hands such as 5To who draw two pairs. The same thing happens regardless of my position.

Is there something about my strategy that is wrong or is this just the type of thing that will happen in low blind games with weaker tables or is there any advice on how I should play these type of hands.

fuzzbox · 01-02-2006 11:57AM

When I played small stakes (buy-in $25), I used to just push my stack in preflop with AA/KK (and sometimes QQ). This was especially effective when there was already a raise in front of me.

One of my favourite moments, while executing this strategy was when I opened UTG for a full 100BB buy-in ($25), with AA. I picked up two callers, the first guy had 99, and the 2nd guy had 55 !! AA stood up, and how I laughed.

Getting outdrawn sucks, but you are likely making a fortune in the long run with this strategy ... try betting even MORE preflop ... since they are calling 10BBs, why not 40? or 50? or 100 ?

masterK · 01-02-2006 12:07PM

But surely going in too heavy will just cause everybody to fold thus only leaving you to win the blinds which in low stake games are hardly worth it.

ianmc38 · 01-02-2006 12:13PM

masterK wrote:

But surely going in too heavy will just cause everybody to fold thus only leaving you to win the blinds which in low stake games are hardly worth it.

Depends on your opponents. if they're calling 10xBB with rags, they might be inclined to call an all in with 2 rags. if so, then this is definitely +EV for you in the long run, in spite of theoutdraws/bad beats that you will inevitably encounter.

fuzzbox · 01-02-2006 12:30PM

masterK wrote:

But surely going in too heavy will just cause everybody to fold thus only leaving you to win the blinds which in low stake games are hardly worth it.

You are already going too heavy (10BBs is really heavy), and you are getting 2/3 callers. So why not go for it all.

Hell, just try it and see what happens. It doesnt have to work very often for it to be profitable.

shroomfox · 01-02-2006 03:04PM

What's keeps happening me lately (3 times in the last two days playing small stakes Sit and gos) is that I raise about 10xBB and somebody pushes all-in with trash. And then beats me, usually with a straight or a set!

Grr. I'm just venting, because this is probably just bad luck. Small stakes players are just tricky sometimes, there's so many gamblers on the tables.

Drakar · 01-02-2006 03:53PM

If you end up all in with someone else and you're way ahead preflop, this is all you can ask for (in cash games). Sometimes you'll get outdrawn, but we seem to forget the times we get lucky too...

5starpool · 01-02-2006 04:02PM

This is a fine thread, though I am not sure discussing the merits of raising 10xBB vs 100 BB is the best use for a poker thread.

I think what seems to be happening here is that you are saying you cannot shake off idiot callers no matter how much you raise. It may not be possible/affordable to play at a slightly higher level, but if you can you should. What site are you playing on where people routinely make a call for $2 on a .10/.20 table?

Do you also call any raise with muck cards? Are you seen to showdown with muck? If so this could entice players to call you more often. There is no information above to explain anything about your play other than overraises with big starting hands.

If you do everything correctly and still get outflopped consistently, then either move up a money level, use play money, or stop playing.

fuzzbox · 01-02-2006 04:20PM

5starpool wrote:

This is a fine thread, though I am not sure discussing the merits of raising 10xBB vs 100 BB is the best use for a poker thread.

I think what seems to be happening here is that you are saying you cannot shake off idiot callers no matter how much you raise. It may not be possible/affordable to play at a slightly higher level, but if you can you should. What site are you playing on where people routinely make a call for $2 on a .10/.20 table?

Do you also call any raise with muck cards? Are you seen to showdown with muck? If so this could entice players to call you more often. There is no information above to explain anything about your play other than overraises with big starting hands.

If you do everything correctly and still get outflopped consistently, then either move up a money level, use play money, or stop playing.

Waaaaaaaaaa. Nononononononono. Moving up in stakes because you cannot *beat* the guys at your current stakes, is not a recipie for success.

The problem with most players at these low levels is that they CALL far far far far far too much. And they also slowplay far far far far too much. Thus, the strategy best employed to beat them is to

1. NEVER BLUFF
2. When you make a big hand BET HARD
3. Never semi-bluff, if you have any draw and are offered a free card, ALWAYS take it. When you subsequently make your draw, BET HARD.

Bet hard = pot (or more if you fancy it, hell all-in when you make your flush/house/set/whatever)

Since they call too much, then you should bet much harder with your strong hands. You can take this to the extreme and punish them immensely by moving all-in with your AA or KK preflop, and expecting to get callers a reasonable amount of the time.

I employed this strategy when I played at these levels, and it worked like a dream. I used to record the results to see if it was successful.

5starpool · 01-02-2006 04:43PM

fuzzbox wrote:

Waaaaaaaaaa. Nononononononono. Moving up in stakes because you cannot *beat* the guys at your current stakes, is not a recipie for success.

The problem with most players at these low levels is that they CALL far far far far far too much. And they also slowplay far far far far too much. Thus, the strategy best employed to beat them is to

1. NEVER BLUFF
2. When you make a big hand BET HARD
3. Never semi-bluff, if you have any draw and are offered a free card, ALWAYS take it. When you subsequently make your draw, BET HARD.

Bet hard = pot (or more if you fancy it, hell all-in when you make your flush/house/set/whatever)

Since they call too much, then you should bet much harder with your strong hands. You can take this to the extreme and punish them immensely by moving all-in with your AA or KK preflop, and expecting to get callers a reasonable amount of the time.

I employed this strategy when I played at these levels, and it worked like a dream. I used to record the results to see if it was successful.

To be slightly arrogant, I wouldn't suggest following any advice from someone who suggests pushing for $25 utg with 0.10/0.25 blinds..

mountainyman · 01-02-2006 04:45PM

masterK wrote:

Pre-flop I've been quite aggressive when dealt AA, KK, QQ, I usually raise about 10BB in 10/20 games and always seem to get 2 or 3 callers. Post flop I still try and play aggressively until I can see some indication of being beaten but usually just get called down. Each time I seem to be getting outdrawn on the turn and the river, some times by players who were dealt hands such as 5To who draw two pairs. The same thing happens regardless of my position.

You're falling in love with your hand and playing correctly initially and wrong post flop.

Also why value AA.KK and QQ the same?

As for 5To that sort of thing happens all the time.

There should be a book on maximising your earnings from bad players.

MM

RoundTower · 01-02-2006 04:59PM

5starpool wrote:

To be slightly arrogant, I wouldn't suggest following any advice from someone who suggests pushing for $25 utg with 0.10/0.25 blinds..

If you're consistently being called by worse hands, why not? I think fuzzbox's advice since he has joined the forum has been very good, as hard as I try to disagree with it.

Only thing I would change in his advice is that it might be OK to bet a big draw. You are betting for value, not as a semibluff. If you have the nut flush draw plus a gutshot on the flop and you can expect three callers, you are in good shape if you bet. But it might be even better to see if you can stack someone with one pair if you hit, so even this is marginal.

ntlbell · 01-02-2006 05:02PM

fuzzbox wrote:

When I played small stakes (buy-in $25), I used to just push my stack in preflop with AA/KK (and sometimes QQ). This was especially effective when there was already a raise in front of me.

One of my favourite moments, while executing this strategy was when I opened UTG for a full 100BB buy-in ($25), with AA. I picked up two callers, the first guy had 99, and the 2nd guy had 55 !! AA stood up, and how I laughed.

Getting outdrawn sucks, but you are likely making a fortune in the long run with this strategy ... try betting even MORE preflop ... since they are calling 10BBs, why not 40? or 50? or 100 ?

I don't or very rarley play cash, but I thought I'd try out this theory, I used to play a bit of .10/.25 while playing STT's or waiting on a tourny, and had much the same problem getting outdrawn,.

so i stuck 25 in there about 2 o clock, pretty much pushed or put in huge raises with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/

and low and behold still got callers holding KJ/QJ/22-88/910s etc

up about 180e some good advice there for micro limits, not very technical but I don't think many cash players at this level understand technical plays anyway.

cardshark202 · 01-02-2006 05:08PM

RoundTower wrote:

If you're consistently being called by worse hands, why not? I think fuzzbox's advice since he has joined the forum has been very good, as hard as I try to disagree with it.

Only thing I would change in his advice is that it might be OK to bet a big draw. You are betting for value, not as a semibluff. If you have the nut flush draw plus a gutshot on the flop and you can expect three callers, you are in good shape if you bet. But it might be even better to see if you can stack someone with one pair if you hit, so even this is marginal.

Yeah I was going to post something identical. Fuzzbox's advice has been great so far. Keep it up. Also I would agree with Dave on the big drawing hands.

hotspur · 01-02-2006 05:43PM

I think the advice to just not play .10/.20 might be good, if you are playing properly and getting annoyed and losing big pots because of the infinite monkey factor then move up if you can afford it. You see it isn't all relative, money still has an absolute value and most people aren't going to care what amount of BB's you raised if it's still a piddling amount of money in absolute terms. I'd advise .25/.50 as the minimum point at which you should consider playing once you've become used to the game after a few weeks and you can afford it. The amounts there are still not large but there's a bit more respect for the game, make it 10xBB there and you won't be getting 3 callers that often.

masterK · 01-02-2006 06:22PM

Some good advice there lads, cheers. I play relatively tight and would never go to the river with muck so it's not as if I'm sending out the wrong signals, possibly the exact opposite, I can sometimes play a little too tight, you'd think in observing that people may see that when I raise I usually have something but they don't.

As somebody already said there are some many people playing these games who are gamblers pure and simple and have no knowledge of odds. I haven't been playing all that long so don't think I'm ready to move up a level just yet. It's just so annoying when you are being constantly outdrawn by a couple of chancers. I mean this has happened me in 5 of the last 6 sessions I've played. Before that I was on an upward curve and was beginning to think I had a very good handle at this level.

5starpool · 01-02-2006 06:28PM

masterK wrote:

Some good advice there lads, cheers. I play relatively tight and would never go to the river with muck so it's not as if I'm sending out the wrong signals, possibly the exact opposite, I can sometimes play a little too tight, you'd think in observing that people may see that when I raise I usually have something but they don't.

As somebody already said there are some many people playing these games who are gamblers pure and simple and have no knowledge of odds. I haven't been playing all that long so don't think I'm ready to move up a level just yet. It's just so annoying when you are being constantly outdrawn by a couple of chancers. I mean this has happened me in 5 of the last 6 sessions I've played. Before that I was on an upward curve and was beginning to think I had a very good handle at this level.

I think the point I was mainly trying to make in my earlier post (which was put much better by someone else since) is that if you can afford to move up a level from the bottom then do so, as there is not that much extra advanced play techniques required, but the money you raise will mean more and not get called by someone who doesn't care if they lose $2 every flop if they can extract more on a raggy board against premium hands every so often. It sounds like you are playing a game that should survive.

Play is more respected, but there are still some spectacularly bad players. I would suggest trying .25/.50 for a bit if it within your bankroll. If not, good luck to you at that level, and keep playing properly, cause if you descend to muppetry then when you move up a level you will get crucified.

Edit: To add to the above, going all in may induce a call or two from crap players at low levels, sure you are trying to steal with 23o or some such, but it is not really play that you should use if you are trying to increase your understanding of the subtleties in NL Holdem. Try this at a higher level with QQ and see what happens.

It is the same concept as freerolls vs more expensive tournaments. There are bad players at most levels, but the number decreases. More luck than skill is required at the bottom end of poker.

mewso · 01-02-2006 07:15PM

I think it's excellent to see some adapted strategies for micro-limits. These strategies if proven to work in the long term are as valid as the typical strategies for higher levels and we shouldn't balk at the idea of over playing big hands etc. when it may be the most appropriate action in that kind of game.
Alot of us are well versed in advanced concepts, strategies but I think the poker world is still struggling to deal with bad players and I like to see sensible approaches to dealing with it.

masterK · 01-02-2006 08:14PM

I suppose the question it comes down to is 'How are we to determine what a player is doing if they don't know themselves?'

Getting outdrawn with AA, KK, QQ

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