British Media: Vendetta against Ryanair

jetsonx · 09-02-2006 12:09AM #1

Why do the British media have a vendetta against Ryanair ?

I suspected it all along but C4 has finally confirmed it by airing a "Dispatches" documentary about them but why did'nt they go undercover with Sleazyjet ?

whiskeyman · 09-02-2006 12:13AM

You'll find they don't particular like BA either...
It's well known that Ryanair "use" the media very effectively.
They just like getting their own back... and Ryanair just has a lot of material to go on.
However, with soaring passenger numbers and profits, they won't give a toss.

jetsonx · 09-02-2006 12:20AM

whiskeyman wrote:

Ryanair "use" the media very effectively.
They just like getting their own back... and Ryanair just has a lot of material to go on.

good theory...

jimmycrackcorm · 09-02-2006 12:38AM

Won't make any difference, people love their €1 flights.

I read that they are going to go on about staff feeling exhausted. but all companies have exhausted staff.

BuffyBot · 09-02-2006 10:40PM

Well considering the trailer has a bit of a factual inaccuracy (where the cabin crew states she won't be checking their passports - actually the job of the ground staff), I'm not hopeful for the program. However, in fairness Dispatches is known for having reasonably well researched documentaries and Ryanair is pretty well known for stretching staff to the limit - so it should be interesting to see how it plays out.

democrates · 10-02-2006 01:27AM

That sort of thing is not surprising.

Once we were part of their empire, now our gdp per capita exceeds theirs, the economic performance of the emerald isle is the jewel in europes crown, Irish investors are into everything there from football clubs to property. The Irish are hugely popular around the world way out of proportion to our size, we've Guinness, Irish Pubs, Ryanair, Waterford Crystal, St. Patricks day, Riverdance, Enya, The Corrs, U2, Bob Geldof etc. etc.

Bound to be a bit of difficulty for some adjusting to the new relationship, old stereotypes die hard ('lazy/fighting/drunken Irish'), and not all journalists are jolly good sports. IRA activities over past decades can't have left a good taste in their mouths either and now they've to watch us party ever louder while they're on the back foot in the 'war on terror'.

It also happens sometimes in their soaps, with Irish characters depicted as scheming betrayers. Also on Dragons Den, an Irish entrepreneur admitted he hadn't paid his taxes completely and appeared cavalier about it. He was rightly lambasted for that, but the telling quote from the UK investor was "I have a problem with that, I have a cultural problem with that". Fine, the individual was wrong, but to characterise that as a cultural difference is to suggest that lax tax compliance is more an Irish trait than British. Subtle, but reveaing.

It's as if some of them think we can't be so successful without something underhand being at the back of it.

But I don't think it's anything to really worry about, anti-Irish propaganda is still a minority sport and most brits are decent skins just making their way in life like the rest of us.

BuffyBot · 10-02-2006 05:33PM

An interesting exchange:

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/inpage.php?partner=DISPATCHES

mike65 · 10-02-2006 06:03PM

Maybe you should watch it first....the Irish also have a "Paddy" sterotype for taking offence easily.

Mike.

therecklessone · 10-02-2006 06:26PM

BuffyBot wrote:

Well considering the trailer has a bit of a factual inaccuracy (where the cabin crew states she won't be checking their passports - actually the job of the ground staff)

Read the letters exchanged bewteen Ryanair and the production company and you'll see that she was required to assist in the boarding of the aircraft (and it is airline policy that one of the four cabin crew does so)

I'd be inclined to agree with Mike, wait and see what the program contains before jumpin to any conclusions on the motivation of the production company or the commissioning editor for Despatches.

Figment · 10-02-2006 09:43PM

democrates wrote:

That sort of thing is not surprising.

Once we were part of their empire, now our gdp per capita exceeds theirs, the economic performance of the emerald isle is the jewel in europes crown, Irish investors are into everything there from football clubs to property. The Irish are hugely popular around the world way out of proportion to our size, we've Guinness, Irish Pubs, Ryanair, Waterford Crystal, St. Patricks day, Riverdance, Enya, The Corrs, U2, Bob Geldof etc. etc...

WOW! i am all for pride in ones country but wow!

Also you do realise that Ryanair is a UK registered company?

TempestSabre · 10-02-2006 09:51PM

People should look at how they achieve the €1 seats.

BuffyBot · 10-02-2006 10:48PM

People should look at how they achieve the €1 seats.

How do you think they do it?

leeroybrown · 10-02-2006 10:53PM

Ryanair are the obvious airline to pick. They brought cheap air travel to the market position it has today and are still the biggest and most successful player in that segment. They are also infamous for some of the HR problems that arise from the cost management practices that underpin their success.

TempestSabre · 10-02-2006 11:47PM

BuffyBot wrote:

How do you think they do it?

Compromise everything for the sake of profit.

Sarsfield · 10-02-2006 11:52PM

Figment wrote:

Also you do realise that Ryanair is a UK registered company?

It's a PLC. It's on the London & Dublin exchanges but it's an Irish company. A number of registered companies actually. Check www.cro.ie

There is a Ryanair UK registered at Stansted but it's a subsidiary of Ryanair PLC (Irish company registration number 249885)

And it's regulated by the IAA not the CAA.

TempestSabre · 10-02-2006 11:55PM

Regulations? You mean the ones they feel like complying with...;)

BuffyBot · 11-02-2006 12:34AM

Compromise everything for the sake of profit.

Easily said...

Sarsfield · 11-02-2006 12:52AM

The program is on at the same time as Eastenders & Corrie. Nobody will be watching.

If it's revelations are to have a wide audience (of Ryanair punters) the story will need to be picked up by the daily papers. Ryanair will get their right to reply there if necessary. And Ryanair are masters of the media. And advertise heavily in the papers.

Ryanair is making the most of it at the moment by advertising the program on the Ryanair.com front page! I don't think Michael O'Leary is too worried. Unless, of course, it turns out the program has got something genuinely serious to report.

TempestSabre · 11-02-2006 01:23AM

BuffyBot wrote:

Easily said...

Whats your point?

Sarsfield wrote:

.... I don't think Michael O'Leary is too worried. Unless, of course, it turns out the program has got something genuinely serious to report.

He doesn't care. Once he turns a profit what else matters. Hes allowed to do that, we're allowed to complain. Thats the system. You don't avoid problems you let them happen. Because thats more profitable. All major industries have done this at some point. The airline business is no difference to anything else.

BuffyBot · 11-02-2006 10:50AM

Whats your point?

The point is it's easy to make claims, but a different thing to give substance to them..

TempestSabre · 11-02-2006 04:35PM

BuffyBot wrote:

The point is it's easy to make claims, but a different thing to give substance to them..

Yes I see your point, RyanAir never being in the media about near misses or overshoots or other such incidents. :rolleyes:

LiamD · 11-02-2006 07:31PM

Ryanair is well known not to compromise safety.It's a given that if you get on board one of their flights, the most you'll get is a please and thank you and perhaps an overpriced sandwich.There are other 'Yes frills' airlines like Virgin, Qatar and Lufthansa if you want to pay for that, but as I recall Mr. O'Leary is well known for not just having one, but two of all the major components for each plane on standby in case they need replacing.

One thing that puzzles me though, is how he is making a profit.200 seats on a plane at €1 each would surely barely cover the jet fuel for that flight!I know some seats are going to be more, but they're rarely more than €20 or so.The only thing I can think of is the merchandise.Anyone care to shed any light on how they are doing so well?

BuffyBot · 11-02-2006 11:34PM

In-flight sales, baggage charges, cost management on absolutely everything, expensive tickets (you would be surprised how many of the later tickets are quite dear), no-shows (Ryanair get to keep the ticket cost etc), change fees...so many different ways of making money.

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 12:23AM

Most airlines choose to stay well within the safety guidlines, whereas Ryanair operates right up to them. Never been proved to break them. Of course in the flying game most accidents are attributed to pilot error regardless of the contributary factors that might cause pilot error. Gets most airlines off the hook.

Its a bit like asking the guy who falling from the empire state building, "how'se it going?".... "Alright so far..."

They try not to spend on anything. Ask Jane O'Keeffe

democrates · 12-02-2006 12:43AM

TempestSabre wrote:

Most airlines choose to stay well within the safety guidlines, whereas Ryanair operates right up to them. Never been proved to break them. Of course in the flying game most accidents are attributed to pilot error regardless of the contributary factors that might cause pilot error. Gets most airlines off the hook.

Its a bit like asking the guy who falling from the empire state building, "how'se it going?".... "Alright so far..."

They try not to spend on anything. Ask Jane O'Keeffe

The killer is, when airlines go like railways did in the uk after privatisation, how do you nail the gits who decided the policies that endangered lives? How do you prove that?

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 12:57AM

democrates wrote:

The killer is, when airlines go like railways did in the uk after privatisation, how do you nail the gits who decided the policies that endangered lives? How do you prove that?

TBH they usually get away with it. :mad:

democrates · 12-02-2006 01:00AM

TempestSabre wrote:

TBH they usually get away with it. :mad:

Precisely, the accountability is simply not adequate. In the light of that, talk by big oil/pharma et al about corporate social responsibility seems merely an attemt to convert past wrongdoings into a branding boon.

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 01:14AM

democrates wrote:

Precisely, the accountability is simply not adequate. In the light of that, talk by big oil/pharma et al about corporate social responsibility seems merely an attemt to convert past wrongdoings into a branding boon.

Many theorise that Ryanair use all adverse publicity as a means of generating free advertising. Which is smart but tells you all about how your complaints will be handled.

democrates · 12-02-2006 01:30AM

TempestSabre wrote:

Many theorise that Ryanair use all adverse publicity as a means of generating free advertising. Which is smart but tells you all about how your complaints will be handled.

Exactly. Though he did seem a bit shaken by that court case. The usuual manic smile was absent.

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 01:35AM

democrates wrote:

Exactly. Though he did seem a bit shaken by that court case. The usuual manic smile was absent.

Maybe he had to pick up a fare in the merc on the way in

democrates · 12-02-2006 01:51AM

TempestSabre wrote:

Maybe he had to pick up a fare in the merc on the way in

Classic!

whiskeyman · 12-02-2006 10:51AM

LiamD wrote:

One thing that puzzles me though, is how he is making a profit.200 seats on a plane at €1 each would surely barely cover the jet fuel for that flight!I know some seats are going to be more, but they're rarely more than €20 or so.The only thing I can think of is the merchandise.Anyone care to shed any light on how they are doing so well?

I think you have to realise not everyone who travels on a Ryanair flights is flexible enough to have planned their trip many weeks in advance and managed to get a 99c deal.
A lot of these flights will be taken by business customers or those who have no other choice, and these flights can go up to, and above, the €100 mark, depending on destination and times.

A lot of the "99c flyers" will be seen a just "bums on seats", and will hopefully be a source of additional income through onboard sales. They will make up a planned percentage before the price starts going up. (depends on route).
The real money comes from the other passengers.

Our man in Havana · 12-02-2006 02:03PM

Will this show be available online or thru c4's many arms such as E4 or More4?

therecklessone · 12-02-2006 02:25PM

LiamD wrote:

but as I recall Mr. O'Leary is well known for not just having one, but two of all the major components for each plane on standby in case they need replacing.

Something tells me this is very unlikely, as they won't even keep a spare aircraft around their hubs to cover eventual hiccups caused by delays/tech problems.

Can I ask all of the people so convinced that Ryanair are an unsafe airline to do one thing please. Take all of the FACTS that you are in possession of to support your contentions and present them to the relevant authorities. You have a moral duty to report your concerns, you could save lives if you are to believed.

The Irish Aviation Authority are the licensing authority for Irish registered aircraft, as all Ryanair aircraft are.

Given that Ryanair operate hundreds of flights out of the UK, and through UK airspace, you may find the Civil Aviation Authority in the UK are interested in your claims.

Finally, you may want to contact the relevant European safety body, which in this case would be the European Aviation Safety Agency

Other than that, can you preface any further posts on this thread with a disclaimer explaining that your allegations are unsubstantiated?

Thanks.

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 04:47PM

What contentions? The only allegation or claim is that they operate closer to the limits of the regulations without breaking them, and they haven't been found to break regulations yet. Its one of the many reasons they operate more profitably than other airlines. Of course other low cost airlines have followed this example and where possible now operate closer to the limits of the regulations themselves. Faster turnarounds, approaches, departures, more sectors per pilot etc.

Non of this is exactly news. Theres been countless articles in the general media about it and its a tired topic in aviation circles. So I dunno why the fuss. BTW can anyone vote themselves mod?

therecklessone · 12-02-2006 07:56PM

TempestSabre wrote:

What contentions? The only allegation or claim is that they operate closer to the limits of the regulations without breaking them, and they haven't been found to break regulations yet.

Really?

TempestSabre wrote:

People should look at how they achieve the €1 seats.

BuffyBot wrote:

How do you think they do it?

TempestSabre wrote:

Compromise everything for the sake of profit.

Compromise everything? Or compromise everything up to legal limits. You chose not to mention the second part until page 2 of this thread, if you want to infer that the airline is run in an unsafe manner be my guest. Don't get upset when you're called on it.

TempestSabre wrote:

Regulations? You mean the ones they feel like complying with...;)

Care to explain that? They either comply with regulations or not. If you have FACTS to suggest they do not, then you have a moral duty to report them to the relevant authority. Otherwise, its unsubstantied rumour and nothing more.

TempestSabre wrote:

Non of this is exactly news. Theres been countless articles in the general media about it and its a tired topic in aviation circles. So I dunno why the fuss.

I'm well aware of rhe "tired" topic as you call it, I'm employed in the industry (not a Ryanair employee) and can read PPRUNE just like yourself. If the airline are operating up to legal limits I am moved to borrow a phrase from you: what's the fuss? The limits are safe, are you suggesting otherwise?

TempestSabre wrote:

BTW can anyone vote themselves mod?

I'll take that as a dig at me. I'm not trying to mod this forum, I'm just using my bull**** detector.

TempestSabre · 12-02-2006 10:07PM

Lets quote someone in the industry... (IALPA's president, Capt. Evan Cullen)

Cullen says: “While not commenting on any particular incident or airline, there is no doubt that the safety margins in Irish aviation have been eroded. The important question is whether we have in place the regulatory oversight system to alert us when the safety margin has been eroded to an unsafe extent.”

therecklessone · 12-02-2006 11:43PM

TempestSabre wrote:

Lets quote someone in the industry... (IALPA's president, Capt. Evan Cullen)

Cullen says: “While not commenting on any particular incident or airline, there is no doubt that the safety margins in Irish aviation have been eroded. The important question is whether we have in place the regulatory oversight system to alert us when the safety margin has been eroded to an unsafe extent.

Sounds to me like he's commenting on the ability of the IAA to competently oversee aviation regulation in Ireland. Hell, he even says he's not commenting on a particular airline.

Are you trying to suggest that there's nothing to stop Ryanair doing as they please in relation to regulations because the IAA can't enforce their own rules?

BuffyBot · 13-02-2006 01:37AM

Anyway, considering IALPA's rather fractious relationship with Ryanair, they're hardly a impartial source..

TempestSabre · 13-02-2006 02:09AM

BuffyBot wrote:

Anyway, considering IALPA's rather fractious relationship with Ryanair, they're hardly a impartial source..

There are no impartial sources in the aviation industry. Everyone has an angle. So no matter who you quote someone will have a problem with it. If its a pilot seeking either seat hes not going to bite the hand that feeds him and similarly no one believes an ex-employee.

The OP was querying was this a "British" vendetta against Ryanair. Well really everyone has some issue or other with Ryanair so its not solely the British. http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/index.htm seems pretty international. The only people who like RyanAir are people who haven't had a problem (yet) and the shareholders.

However it will be interesting to see whats in the program. Not that I've much Confidence in the media these days.

whiskeyman · 13-02-2006 09:05PM

Watched it and have to say I'll keep on flying Ryanair.
There's nothing there that the rest of the "no-frills" airlines aren't doing.

I found it "tabloid television" reporting at best.

TempestSabre · 13-02-2006 09:16PM

I was working and missed it. I wasn't expecting much myself.

Sarsfield · 13-02-2006 11:23PM

whiskeyman wrote:

Watched it and have to say I'll keep on flying Ryanair.
There's nothing there that the rest of the "no-frills" airlines aren't doing.

I found it "tabloid television" reporting at best.

Got to agree there.

They were really clutching at straws. One or two genuine issues highlighted (quite possibly once-off) but mostly complete garbage and misrepresentation.

I've 2 trips booked on Ryanair in the next 6 weeks and I see no reason to change my plans!

This is interesting Latest Ryanair release Basically accusing C4 of lying!

TempestSabre · 13-02-2006 11:46PM

therecklessone wrote:

..Are you trying to suggest that there's nothing to stop Ryanair doing as they please in relation to regulations because the IAA can't enforce their own rules?

Not really. Though thats an interesting point. The point I was trying to make was that the low cost model in general, not specifically Ryanair does increase the pressure on the system, pilots infrastructure etc. Theres been no real bona fida investigation (and that program seems to have been junk) into how this effects the safety margins. Theres been a lot of pressure on Ryanair to screw up with regard to regulations and they've been very particular about adhering to them. In fairness to Ryanair their their safety record has been pretty good thus far, and they've made a point of rebutting any such alegations with the facts of their safety record. You can't really argue with that. Rather than focusing on Ryanair perhaps more attention should be focused on the regulations, to see if they are still appropriate and the regulating bodies themselves are sufficient.

Lump · 14-02-2006 01:24AM

I had a rant on www.myspace.com/johnloughman I won't repeat it all here. I think Ryanair well come out well on this one. And where do they get off saying Ryanair is Britain's fastest growing airline?!

John

dahamsta · 14-02-2006 03:30AM

I just hope the Ryanair defenders aren't one of their planes when it drops out of the sky. It's only a matter of time.

adam

therecklessone · 14-02-2006 06:02AM

Ken Shabby wrote:

I just hope the Ryanair defenders aren't one of their planes when it drops out of the sky. It's only a matter of time.

adam

Thats right Adam, statistically its only a matter of time before one of their aircraft is involved in a crash.

Thats what you mean, right?

ButtermilkJack · 14-02-2006 09:29AM

I didn't see it but I heard a guy from Ryanair on TodayFM last night.

Apparantly Dispatches/C4 took a full-page ad in some newspaper showing a picture of a cabin crew member asleep in the staff seat. Only one thing wrong with the picture... it was not one of Ryanairs planes!!:D

It seems the crew member was sitting in a 747 and Ryanair do not operate any 747's (the difference is there are 2 cabin crew seats in one plane and only one in the other).

If this was their best attemp to get an audience the day before the programme, and they had to use a false/doctored photo then I'm afraid that says it all really.

Complete bull**** from start to finish!!

ButtermilkJack · 14-02-2006 09:37AM

Ha

I just read the Ryanair statement about the false photo. Spot on!

My god they must feel like idiots... 5 months of their lives wasted!!

BTW, the programme will be repeated at 3.25am on Wednesday 15th (tomorrow morning!).

BuffyBot · 14-02-2006 04:09PM

It's only a matter of time.

As it pretty much everything. How many aircraft have the other major airlines lost? Aviation is by is nature a risky business.

PhoenixRising · 14-02-2006 04:48PM

Here are a few FACTS for you therecklessone:

1) Ryanair pilot declines to fly extra flights after a days duty due to feeling fatigued. Said pilot demoted. Complaint submitted to IAA.

2) Ryanair First Officer refuses to fly further flights with captain she feels is bullying and harassing her. First Officer fired on the spot.

3) The recent 'Ryanair pilot freezes in flight'. Captain suffered a breakdown flying just days after the death of his child. Why did he feel he had to go to work? Wanted to keep his job maybe? Investigation pending from IAA (only having been beaten into action, mind you) and the Italian CAA.

4) Near miss on a go-around in Beauvais recently. Report in the offing.

5) Even more dangerous was this incident in Skavsta. AAIU report here

6) And just last week

The list goes on but my fingers are getting tired. Anyway that program last night only confirmed what everyone in the industry already knows about the way Ryanair operate. No great surprises.

British Media: Vendetta against Ryanair

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