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I may not be popular for saying this but...

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    #62
    tallaghtdave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 449 ✭✭tallaghtdave


    charity starts at home..
    but you could of explained it a little better.
    less cruel etc.
    do we really give a ****?
    any way
    there was a few really interesting replys on the post.
    good topic.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Julesie wrote:
    Its seems to be a common misconception that the only solution to the third world problem is for us to give money from our own pockets in some vain attempt to make things better. This is naive in the extreme.

    The third world is the way it is for a multitude of reasons such as but not limited to:
    • Corrupt Government Regimes
    • Hostile/Violent enviorment (civil war etc.)
    • Inhospitable climate (drought etc.)
    • Low population density
    • Poor levels of infrastructure
    • Poor standard of education/literacy amongst adults
    • Native cultures at odds with western "capatalist" ideals
    • Unfavourable trade conditions with the first world

    These are just some of the reasons why Africa isnt going to have an economy that functions like ours in the near future. One of the main contributing factors for the above "problems" is Africas history of colonisation by european countries such as (England, France, Holland etc.) For centuries these countries were just treated like distant outposts of a forgotten empire with little or no interest or investment placed in them. That means that while the first world prospered during industrial revolutions this never reached Africa.

    Most of the above problems wont be solved by a simple hand out but rather fundamental changes in the way an entire continent operates. Thats why giving money to Concern shouldnt make you feel like you are solving world poverty in fact in some ways it perpetuates it. To be honest im not sure it could be solved or if it is even "our" place to take on that task.

    Anyway rant over.

    Agreed with everything you said right until you started on the colonial aspect. The problem is that this is always thrown out as a reason for Africa being ****ed up, and yet it ignores the responsibility of the individual African nations for what happened when the colonials left.

    Africa was in a good condition when the colonials left or were forced to leave. Well maintained Ranches producing quality products, a well established manufacturing base, and more than enough food being produced & sold as trade. Africa wasn't that bad a place economically.

    However, then the Whites/Boers were ousted, and the **** hit the fan. The ranches & farms were given to the people, the manufacturing areas were either dismantled by the people, or burnt altogether. And gradually through bad planning the quality of the land degraded in many areas, bringing starvation, and drought.

    The African people for the most part did this to themselves. Since the 80's I've seen monetary Aid, Charities, & Skilled vollunteers (religious and non-religious) going to Africa. Thats two decades of Aid, and I've seen very little improvements. The wars continue. The famines continue.

    When I was a teenager and later in my early twenties, I regularly gave money to charities. But as time went by, and more charities appeared all asking for money, I started to wonder what was the point. Maybe all this aid wasn't actually helping. Maybe we were just making them dependent on us. And frankly, I don't give a **** about them anymore. Its gone on too long for me to retain any sympathy or concern.

    Simply put, the African people need to get their act together before they'll be able to join the rest of the world. And I'll not give aid to people who don't want to help themselves.


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    #64
    Buddygunz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Buddygunz


    The money that goes to third world countries from charity is absoulute miniscule. If those countries want to change they have to first have a look at how they govern themselves. And that is not the job of the western world.


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    #65
    jaggeh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭jaggeh


    but if they had strong economies we couldnt exploit them.


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    #66
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    And that would be to all our detriment.Why pay "fair trade" prices to people who would only waste the money when you could steal the stuff from them and get it for nothing.The analogy of a prison springs to mind..only the strongest survive,the weak get beaten up and have their trainers stolen.


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    #67
    shroomfox
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭shroomfox


    First off, not that I'm a fan and I'd probably smack her in the face if I ever met her...but Mariah Carey didn't say that.

    Secondly, anybody who doesn't think that third world countries don't deserve help or can "sort it out themselves" needs their head examined. The reason they're all ****ed at the moment is because of large First world economies (like the US and the EU) using protectionist policies to look after their own enterprises and exploiting third world markets in favour of first world homegrown business.

    Thirdly, fair enough if you don't care about the third world. Charity doesn't do much: it's all about trade and building third world business. But first world economies have a moral obligation to help simply because they're able to help. If you're walking along a cliff side and see a guy hanging off the edge who needs your help, it's your fault if he dies; simply because you're aware that he needs your help and you've the ability to give it.


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    #68
    jaggeh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭jaggeh


    the world is an unfair place.

    sure iraq used to be a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles


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    #69
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    shroomfox wrote:
    First off, not that I'm a fan and I'd probably smack her in the face if I ever met her...but Mariah Carey didn't say that.

    Secondly, anybody who doesn't think that third world countries don't deserve help or can "sort it out themselves" needs their head examined. The reason they're all ****ed at the moment is because of large First world economies (like the US and the EU) using protectionist policies to look after their own enterprises and exploiting third world markets in favour of first world homegrown business.

    Thirdly, fair enough if you don't care about the third world. Charity doesn't do much: it's all about trade and building third world business. But first world economies have a moral obligation to help simply because they're able to help. If you're walking along a cliff side and see a guy hanging off the edge who needs your help, it's your fault if he dies; simply because you're aware that he needs your help and you've the ability to give it.



    Nice one for researching the Mariah Carey thing,i take it you dont have a girlfriend?
    Secondly,there's a differnce between some fool hanging off a cliff and some fool badgering you for money not to jump.Where's all the money we gave them for LiveAid?Probably into that thieving scumbag Bob Geldof's pockets.Twenty years (and longer) we've been helping out these places and none of them have sorted themselves out..take away the tit and they'll soon stop sucking.


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    #70
    Archeron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,264 ✭✭✭Archeron


    ionapaul wrote:
    I think we'll agree to disagree (this is directed to Archeron). Yes, I am quite able to make a sweeping generalisation based on established evolutionary theory! Yes, I am happy telling a whole range of people why they do what they do, based on evolutionary theory. If you feel the theory is false or does not apply in your case, feel free to present evidence to the contrary. I applaud those who help the needy, who have compassion and empathy for those less fortunate than themselves.

    But they are doing it, consiously or subconsiously, for ultimately 'self serving' reasons.

    Okay, we'll agree to disagree. I was gonna trawl through the interweb to try and find an opposing argument, but then thought Meh, no point in having one of those tit for tat arguments. I still hold my opinion, but cant really figure out how to prove a feeling, so I'll leave it at that.


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    #71
    shroomfox
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭shroomfox


    degsy wrote:
    Nice one for researching the Mariah Carey thing,i take it you dont have a girlfriend?

    Cutting!

    As for the rest of your post, here's an idea: go read a book before you try and make up opinions on subjects you don't know anything about. Try Globalisation and its Discontents by Joseph Stiglitz. You might learn something.


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    #72
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    shroomfox wrote:
    Cutting!

    As for the rest of your post, here's an idea: go read a book before you try and make up opinions on subjects you don't know anything about. Try Globalisation and its Discontents by Joseph Stiglitz. You might learn something.

    Oh yes,of course go read a BOOK!I knew there was something i'd been neglecting to do all these years.Do you think reading Stiglitz makes you intelligent?First year BESS reading "Roaring 90's-seeds of destruction"Joseph Stiglitz.."The mcDonaldisdation of Society"George Ritzer.More Stiglitz?"Re-thinking the east-asian miracle".Bull**** crappy children's econimics books,everybody's so left wing these days it makes me sick.You wanna go read a book,let me reccomend "dog eat dog" by edward Bunker.Poxy Students.


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    #73
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    shroomfox wrote:
    Cutting!

    As for the rest of your post, here's an idea: go read a book before you try and make up opinions on subjects you don't know anything about. Try Globalisation and its Discontents by Joseph Stiglitz. You might learn something.


    And i'm still willing to bet that you dont have a girlfriend.


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    #74
    ronbyrne2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    the charity starts at home argument is bull. anyone living in this country has enough chances to be helped etc by government etc. millions die every year of lack of food water and simple medicines around the world while greedy people in the west stuff themselves silly and worry about crass materialistic things and profit from the exploitation of 3rd world people by western companies and individuals,yes corrupt leaders cause problems in 3rd world but we support them and give them weapons etc.we should all feel guilty,we were lucky to be born in a western world which grew rich on the backs of the poor 3rd world countries,a baby born in africa is no less important than the one lucky enough to be born in west.shame on all of us.


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    #75
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    Degsy wrote:
    And i'm still willing to bet that you dont have a girlfriend.

    What the **** does that have to do with anything? Jesus Christ people are ignorant.

    As for the "look after our own people first" argument, its so xenophobic it makes me sick. What difference does it make whether a person was born on this island or another? Should we only look after people because they had the good fortune to be born into our great healthcare system (regardless of the apparent "state" it is in now)?

    If ignorance is bliss, then After Hours is full of smiles. I can hardly believe some of the nonsense I'm reading here. We're all so cosy in our little semi-d's that we couldn't give two flying ****s about people who barely have enough money to survive.


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    #76
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    ronbyrne2005 wrote:
    the charity starts at home argument is bull. anyone living in this country has enough chances to be helped etc by government etc. millions die every year of lack of food water and simple medicines around the world while greedy people in the west stuff themselves silly and worry about crass materialistic things and profit from the exploitation of 3rd world people by western companies and individuals,yes corrupt leaders cause problems in 3rd world but we support them and give them weapons etc.we should all feel guilty,we were lucky to be born in a western world which grew rich on the backs of the poor 3rd world countries,a baby born in africa is no less important than the one lucky enough to be born in west.shame on all of us.

    Spot on, excellent post.


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    #77
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    MrJoeSoap wrote:
    What the **** does that have to do with anything? Jesus Christ people are ignorant.

    As for the "look after our own people first" argument, its so xenophobic it makes me sick. What difference does it make whether a person was born on this island or another? Should we only look after people because they had the good fortune to be born into our great healthcare system (regardless of the apparent "state" it is in now)?

    If ignorance is bliss, then After Hours is full of smiles. I can hardly believe some of the nonsense I'm reading here. We're all so cosy in our little semi-d's that we couldn't give two flying ****s about people who barely have enough money to survive.


    Are YOU going to give up whatever luxuries you've worked for to help people you've never met?
    Is Bono or Bob Geldof going to give away thier money to "good causes"?
    No.
    Neither am i...


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    #78
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    I fully intend on taking my "precious" time to do some volunteer work in countries affected by poverty, if thats what you mean.

    As for Bono and Bob Geldof... great examples...


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    #79
    Raiser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    Degsy wrote:
    Nice one for researching the Mariah Carey thing,i take it you dont have a girlfriend?
    Secondly,there's a differnce between some fool hanging off a cliff and some fool badgering you for money not to jump.Where's all the money we gave them for LiveAid?Probably into that thieving scumbag Bob Geldof's pockets.Twenty years (and longer) we've been helping out these places and none of them have sorted themselves out..take away the tit and they'll soon stop sucking.

    Interesting Degsy, found this post of yours:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51173905&postcount=51
    Degsy wrote:
    Couple of thing worth mentioning.I worked for the hanley cetnre for a year,our flat rate was 40% of the take,my supervisor got 20% of that and HIS boss got between 10-20% of the remaining ctach.5% went to print the crads and the remaining 5% went to the charity.Its an utter scam,all those "charities" are on the make,they've got well paid staff and expensive premises.Give them nowt.
    If you dont want to sound like a total bastard by saying no or whatever just say "i've a direct debit" it does wonders and they will actually say thatnk you!!

    Post can be found here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51173905#post51173905


    What was that you said about thieving scumbags? Did it really take you a whole entire year, as in 52 weeks, or 365 days to realise that you were pocketing 40% of every contribution that decent people thought was going to the less fortunate - when it fact it was being spent on good old Degsy.

    You're making me queasy, its not your warped views, skewed metrics, inverted value system or general distastefullness - I just get vertigo when peering that far downwards to the bottomfeeders busily doggy-paddling around in the filth and mire pooled at the very base of our society.

    Raiser


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    #80
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Raiser wrote:
    Interesting Degsy, found this post of yours:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51173905&postcount=51


    Post can be found here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=51173905#post51173905


    What was that you said about thieving scumbags? Did it really take you a whole entire year, as in 52 weeks, or 365 days to realise that you were pocketing 40% of every contribution that decent people thought was going to the less fortunate - when it fact it was being spent on good old Degsy.

    You're making me queasy, its not your warped views, skewed metrics, inverted value system or general distastefullness - I just get vertigo when peering that far downwards to the bottomfeeders busily doggy-paddling around in the filth and mire pooled at the very base of our society.

    Raiser


    That was about 15 years ago and no it wasnt telling people the truth..just like all charities in existence today.So people pay money to assuage thier conscience but they end up putting the money into the pockets of people in the first world instead.Its not just poor countries that are being exploited,i would never work for a "charity" again and nor would i ever contribute to one as i have first hand experience of what goes on.

    BTW,Mr Man-Of-Words..when you're "peering" "downwards" from the elevated state that you have arrogated to yourself,be aware that "bottom feeders" dont "doggy paddle".You're not intelligent and you're not interesting.


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    #81
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    MrJoeSoap wrote:
    I fully intend on taking my "precious" time to do some volunteer work in countries affected by poverty, if thats what you mean.

    As for Bono and Bob Geldof... great examples...


    I'm just willing to bet that this heroic action won't involve the people of your own country.

    I'd have thought that yes,Bob and Bono WERE great examples of the sort of hypocrisy that's endemic in our society..people who pontificate from a height about the state of the third world yet retain vast sums of wealth themselves.


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    #82
    failsafe
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭failsafe


    azezil wrote:
    What gets my goat is people saying 'we owe them, we stole all their natural resources' things like that, did Ireland as a nation do this? I think not, yet we give millions every year!

    I really don't see why, I'll give to charities that help our own people, when a child doesn't go hungry in our country, I'll give to others.

    What's the difference between an African child and an Irish child? When a child doesn't go hungry in the world, i'll stop caring.


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    #83
    onemanband
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭onemanband


    Let's play a game. No one else respond to this thread after this contribution.

    We can all then sit back and hope that Degsy won't post any more utter ****e on this topic.

    I give my word that if this happens, I'll donate a grand to Concern!!!!


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    #84
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    onemanband wrote:
    Let's play a game. No one else respond to this thread after this contribution.

    We can all then sit back and hope that Degsy won't post any more utter ****e on this topic.

    I give my word that if this happens, I'll donate a grand to Concern!!!!


    And pay 800 euro of that into the admin's pocket?Go ahead.


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    #85
    failsafe
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭failsafe


    Degsy wrote:
    I'm just willing to bet that this heroic action won't involve the people of your own country.

    I'd have thought that yes,Bob and Bono WERE great examples of the sort of hypocrisy that's endemic in our society..people who pontificate from a height about the state of the third world yet retain vast sums of wealth themselves.

    And yet you argue about people that give loads to charity and boast about it.

    You claim it's a political issue that the "minister for foreign affairs, or whoever" should deal with, but then when Bono tries to stir political movements, you criticize him for living in a nice house and driving a nice car.
    :rolleyes:


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    #86
    failsafe
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭failsafe


    Degsy wrote:
    And pay 800 euro of that into the admin's pocket?Go ahead.

    And 200 to help build a hospital... it's a hell of a lot more than you've ever done.


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    #87
    Bob the Seducer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Bob the Seducer


    The Doktor wrote:
    Just think about what you have said…. You don’t care…not that you don’t give to charity, not that you don’t want to help….YOU DON’T CARE..
    Do you not care about these people too? These are people who have been killed at the hands of other people, just like in Africa.

     9,000,000-11,000,000 Poles, Jews, Russians, Communists, Homosexuals, Mentally ill, Gypsies, Disabled, Intelligentsia, Jehovah`s Witnesses, Clergy, Trade Unionists, Political Activists murdered by the Nazis
     estimated 1,400,000 Armenians murdered in the Ottoman empire
     AT LEAST 25,000,000 Military dead during ww2 (Combined, US, UK, USSR, German…etc etc)
     about 150,000 dead in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the year after the US dropped fat man and little boy.
     180,000 civilians killed in Japan from US fire bombing
     500,000 Children and 500,000 adults dead due to sanctions against Iraq
     nearly 2,500 US soldiers and 34,000 Iraqi civilians killed in the current Iraq war
     1,000,000 people killed in Iran/Iraq war
     1,000,000 died in the Mexican revolution
     1,700,000 killed in the vietnam war
     1,400,000 dead in civil war in Ethiopia
     At least 1,600,000 killed by the Khmer Rouge
    At least 20,000 soviet and 1,000,000 Afghan/Mujahideen in the Soviet Afghan war
     20,000,000 killed during Stalins regime
     40,000,000 killed during Mao Tse-Tungs regime in China
    The above figures are lowest estimations
    I haven`t given figure for dead due to man made famine, disease etc in Africa.. but we know its millions too


    Please, just look at the numbers.. and think about what you are saying

    You forgot one:
    800,000+ dead as a result of Irish Famine


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    #88
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    failsafe wrote:
    And 200 to help build a hospital... it's a hell of a lot more than you've ever done.

    How the hell do you know what i've done?
    You're obviously trying to sound like some sort of wealthy man-of-the-people,but i'm getting the impression you dont have a penny to your name. .Anyway..the whole point i was making is that charities are a salve for the conscience,they pay directors huge salaries and they have expensive premises,and the mug who wants to show off by "donating" is keeping the whole rotten system afloat.


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    #89
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    failsafe wrote:
    And yet you argue about people that give loads to charity and boast about it.

    You claim it's a political issue that the "minister for foreign affairs, or whoever" should deal with, but then when Bono tries to stir political movements, you criticize him for living in a nice house and driving a nice car.
    :rolleyes:

    A NICE house?A NICE car?The man is a multi,multi millionaire,he doesnt pay any taxes,he doesnt contribute a damn thing to the poor of THIS country but he's on a crusade to save everybody else?He's a hypocrite plain and simple.


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    #90
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Degsy wrote:
    A NICE house?A NICE car?The man is a multi,multi millionaire,he doesnt pay any taxes,he doesnt contribute a damn thing to the poor of THIS country but he's on a crusade to save everybody else?He's a hypocrite plain and simple.
    He does pay taxes. He was a **** singer. He made his money from business.

    Oh, and I don't really care about Africa.


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    #91
    The Doktor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭The Doktor


    Bob the Seducer wrote:
    You forgot one:
    800,000+ dead as a result of Irish Famine

    no i didnt.. was just tryin to keep it this century, thats all.. but yeah.. ur right


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