Hand from last night scalps game

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 09:37AM #1

5 handed and I have about 80k. Blinds are 3000/6000 (as far as i remember, could have been 2/4

I limp UTG with JdQd. I'd usually raise here. Villain completes on the small blind and has me covered. BB checks.

Flop 9Tx with two spades.

SB checks and I bet about 2/3rds pot(cant remember exact numbers).

Villain raises to 25k. Now I'm pretty sure he has a 9 or a ten. Anything bigger and he's raising preflop. He'd been getting very aggresive and was starting to run over the table a bit. I figure if I push here he's good enough to laydown one pair, putting me on an overpair, a set or two pair and that if he calls, I've two live overcards, both of which I'm confident will give me top pair and I also have the open ender.

How do you like demz apples?

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 09:48AM

Brilliant, utterly brilliant

So when he called you and beat you down, how did you feel?

Why do you think he is check/raising a 9 or a T?

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 10:07AM

pot is 18k you bet 12k he raises to 25k, so pot is 55k if your willing to gamble as its a tough table go for it.
but i don't think the villain folds here very often.

i would not discount 2 pair or A9 A10, as players often dont like to raise once theres an utg limper. especially if its an agressive table.

Marq · 17-08-2006 10:15AM

I loath how you played this hand.

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 10:34AM

Marq wrote:

I loath how you played this hand.

As ever, an extremely helpful post. Thank you for your insightful comments and detailed analysis.

Bandana boy · 17-08-2006 10:42AM

ianmc38 wrote:

, I've two live overcards, both of which I'm confident will give me top pair and I also have the open ender.

How do you like demz apples?

Ian you can be more than confident that if you hit a J or Q on T9x board that you will have top pair
I dont often do this but i will guaran damn tee that any board with no A or K on it but has a q or J that the q or J will be the top pair :-)

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 10:43AM

Bandana boy wrote:

Ian you can be more than confident that if you hit a J or Q on T9x board that you will have top pair
I dont often do this but i will guaran damn tee that any board with no A or K on it but has a q or J that the q or J will be top pair

it took me a few seconds ....

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 10:45AM

Lol. Essentially, I was implying that he didn't have an overpair (or so I thought).

El Stuntman · 17-08-2006 10:47AM

kindly reveal the shameful manner in which you won this hand

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 10:49AM

El Stuntman wrote:

kindly reveal the shameful manner in which you won this hand

Obviously he shoved, the dude had AA and called, and he hit running Jacks.

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 10:50AM

ianmc38 wrote:

Lol. Essentially, I was implying that he didn't have an overpair (or so I thought).

he had KK and you hit K on the river to win?

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 10:51AM

De Deraco wrote:

he had KK and you hit K on the river to win?

Ohhh, I like that one too !!

Bandana boy · 17-08-2006 10:52AM

De Deraco wrote:

he had KK and you hit K on the river to win?

Unlikely
i wasnt playing in the scalps last night and surely i am the only one this kind of Sh1t happens to

Although now that the vortex has no home to go to it has to kill time somehow

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 10:53AM

He called with KTo, no spades. Turn was a queen and the river a brick.

On the flop:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 53.1313 % 53.13% 00.00% { KcTh }
Hand 2: 46.8687 % 46.87% 00.00% { QdJd }

What do you put me on when I push here? I've been playing aggressively, but I havn't gotten out of line and have shown down strong hands.

Does anyone call here with KT? Fold and you still have 80k or so left behind and you'll be second on chips.

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 10:54AM

Bandana boy wrote:

Unlikely
i wasnt playing in the scalps last night and surely i am the only one this kind of Sh1t happens to

No way - this is my domain.

With regard to the hand ... anybody like a call, with the intention of bluffing spades/getting paid if you hit/going broke on a Q/J ?

Would he check/fold to a spade?

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 10:55AM

ianmc38 wrote:

He called with KTo, no spades. Turn was a queen and the river a brick.

On the flop:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 53.1313 % 53.13% 00.00% { KcTh }
Hand 2: 46.8687 % 46.87% 00.00% { QdJd }

What do you put me on when I push here? I've been playing aggressively, but I havn't gotten out of line and have shown down strong hands.

Doesnt really matter what I put you on.

The man has TOP PAIR .... TOP PAIR !!!! it doesnt get much better than top pair.

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 10:58AM

JT JQ any suited connected diamonds maybe A9. not A10 or 1010, 99 or jj as id think you would clearly raise with those. and if i think your sneaky maybe AA or KK probably not QQ

El Stuntman · 17-08-2006 10:59AM

fuzzbox wrote:

Doesnt really matter what I put you on.

The man has TOP PAIR .... TOP PAIR !!!! it doesnt get much better than top pair.

STOP SHOUTING FUZZ

well played Ian, I think you played the hand in an exemplary fashion

:rolleyes:

Bandana boy · 17-08-2006 11:00AM

fuzzbox wrote:

No way - this is my domain.

With regard to the hand ... anybody like a call, with the intention of bluffing spades/getting paid if you hit/going broke on a Q/J ?

Would he check/fold to a spade?

in Many ways i think a call is scarier than a push this late in tourney
for our villain and he will hate pretty much half the deck on the turn

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 11:01AM

i dont lke flat calling as if its a brick on the turn, he will most likely put you all in before you can bet and youll have to fold.

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 11:02AM

The only problem is that he might not be deep enough to be bluffable.
He just stuck 25k in, and the pot will hold 60k on the turn (ian having 55k left).

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 11:02AM

De Deraco wrote:

i dont lke flat calling as if its a brick on the turn, he will most likely put you all in before you can bet and youll have to fold.

And this is bad ... why?

Gholimoli · 17-08-2006 11:03AM

fuzzbox wrote:

No way - this is my domain.

With regard to the hand ... anybody like a call, with the intention of bluffing spades/getting paid if you hit/going broke on a Q/J ?

Would he check/fold to a spade?

dont like a flat call here at all.
both you and the villain are commited by a call so you have feck all FE and you flat call this.
with regards to the hand it self knowing villain i think you played the hand fine.
i agree with your reads of your Q and J being live quit often here.so everything considered i think you played it fine.

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 11:05AM

If i flat call and a brick comes on the turn then I can't possibly call an all-in. Flat calling gives me fook all FE i think.

eoghan104 · 17-08-2006 11:05AM

Marq wrote:

I loath how you played this hand.

How is this helpfull in anyway to anyone? i hate seeing this **** all the time. if youve nothin productive to say then say fcuk all!

Ian i like the push as your representing a very big hand here i defo couldnt find a call with K 10. The check raise was good by the villain aswell as he too represents strenght here with it being so late in the tourney so for you too come over the top again screams a big hand....... well done on winning by the way!!!

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 11:08AM

its not bad in itself, but compared to going all in on the flop or folding its the worst option.

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 11:08AM

Gholimoli wrote:

dont like a flat call here at all.
both you and the villain are commited by a call so you have feck all FE and you flat call this.
with regards to the hand it self knowing villain i think you played the hand fine.
i agree with your reads of your Q and J being live quit often here.so everything considered i think you played it fine.

Yeah, but everybody knows that you are allergic to calls.

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 11:09AM

De Deraco wrote:

its not bad in itself, but compared to going all in on the flop or folding its the worst option.

Why?

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 11:12AM

ianmc38 wrote:

If i flat call and a brick comes on the turn then I can't possibly call an all-in. Flat calling gives me fook all FE i think.

Gives you fvck all fold equity on the flop.

there are 3 Qs, 3 Js, 4 Ks, 4 8s and 7 other spades that make things awful hard for your opponent. 21 "outs" is nearly half the deck, and you are sooo getting odds for that.

Hell, you could even bluff an Ace, he might figure you for AsXs.

ho hum.

But ... all that said - ppl who check/raise dont fold. So maybe you have no FE as it stands.

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 11:15AM

At least on the flop you have some FE with the all in, A call is probably on par with folding so i guess its a personal choice that i would rather fold than call, when i dont have position to move all in first.

Gholimoli · 17-08-2006 11:40AM

De Deraco wrote:

A call is probably on par with folding .

now in all fairness does this make sense?

De Deraco · 17-08-2006 11:44AM

with hindsight no. but your assuming your villain doesnt have two pair or a crafty overpair. i minraise checkraise reeks of strenght

Bandana boy · 17-08-2006 11:48AM

fuzzbox wrote:

Gives you fvck all fold equity on the flop.

there are 3 Qs, 3 Js, 4 Ks, 4 8s and 7 other spades that make things awful hard for your opponent. 21 "outs" is nearly half the deck, and you are sooo getting odds for that.

Hell, you could even bluff an Ace, he might figure you for AsXs.

ho hum.

But ... all that said - ppl who check/raise dont fold. So maybe you have no FE as it stands.

It is as always read dependent i know if i reraise with tp and get a call on a draw heavy board like this i am nervous
I personally find you have more FE on turn than flop this late in tourney but thats just my opinion and as Fuzz points out half the deck has our friend very nervous and i think you can maybe add in 4 as 3 9s and 3xs taking you up to 31 cards that make our villain fold and hey you might even hit your hand

Poker & Pints · 17-08-2006 11:50AM

SO I will reveal...cuz I'm the villain....Here is my response from another thread:
I understand...NP..I personally don't like the play into the big stack(which I was at the time)....I made a huge raise...You are 3% as it worked out, but imagine a set(which could have been likely) or top pair with flush draw(again likely) or even QJ spades(you didnt have the spades)....your playing to drawout against the only stack at the table that could severly cripple you.

The only piece missing was that you bet 6.5K only into the 18K pot...

Now in my defense, I kinda got screwed that deal....Jack(dealer) called out only 15k more to call and I had raised 25K, so it was an easy call at that point...when that occurred(my call) you stated quite loudly that you were in "trouble" and said that you were not happy with the call. My mindset was that I was way ahead, then the whole fiasco with the count of chips>>>Jack recounts and now tells me that it is actually 60K and 41.5K more to me...I didn't step back and rethink, I still had your comments in my head...so I promptly called. I don't really know if I would have laid down had that occurred, but maybe, I would have still had 70+K.....It was a weird kinda scenario.

Ian hit his Q, so I now had a strt draw which never materialized, and after a push for 43K with 55, Fergus called me(reluctantly) with 77 and that was it.
Still it was a good final table with only weak, marginal, poor etiquette play from the guy to your right. I enjoyed it no matter!

Bp! · 17-08-2006 11:54AM

ianmc38 wrote:

5 handed and I have about 80k. Blinds are 3000/6000 (as far as i remember, could have been 2/4

I limp UTG with JdQd. I'd usually raise here. Villain completes on the small blind and has me covered. BB checks.

Flop 9Tx with two spades.

SB checks and I bet about 2/3rds pot(cant remember exact numbers).

Villain raises to 25k. Now I'm pretty sure he has a 9 or a ten. Anything bigger and he's raising preflop. He'd been getting very aggresive and was starting to run over the table a bit. I figure if I push here he's good enough to laydown one pair, putting me on an overpair, a set or two pair and that if he calls, I've two live overcards, both of which I'm confident will give me top pair and I also have the open ender.

How do you like demz apples?

TBH I dont really like the play here, with his check raise and the amount in the pot Villan certainly isnt folding here.

There are many hands that could have had you in serious trouble , Q 10, J 10, 10/9 with spades to back it up. In a way you were lucky his Kicker hadnt you dominated leaving you with only your OESD as outs.

whats peoples thoughts on entering pot? Open push? Raise to 15K or fold?
(on the basis blinds were 3k/6k)

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 12:25PM

To be honest, you had started playing evry aggressively and I felt you would have raised preflop with any pair, especially 9s or tens. 9T was possible, but I thought you'd have led with that hand or check called. Similarly, i thought you'd raise any ace albeit out of position. I thought the fact I'd limped UTG, then made a raise asking to be reraised would make you think I had a monster.

I wasn't pushing to draw out on you. I was pushing to get you to fold your hand as I ddint think you needed to risk that many chips when I could have had a monster. I know you said I shouldnt tangle with the stack that can cripple me, but i think the inverse is also true.

I do agree you did get screwed in that hand by the dealer. That chip count was a fiasco. When he said 11k more, I thought there was something seriously wrong, as I knew i had 80ishk prior to the hand. I think if this had been done correctly that you would have folded, though I can't be certain.

The final table was very enjoyable. The guy who was sitting on my right is quite obnoxious but is a nice guy when you get to know him, although he can be extremely cocky.

Anyways, wp I thought whoever won that hand would go onto win it, as you'd started changing gears and were on the verge of steamrollering the table. GG.

Hectorjelly · 17-08-2006 01:20PM

preflop preflop preflop

Marq · 17-08-2006 01:29PM

As I said I loath how you played this hand.

For a start, you limp in when the blinds are quite large with a marginal hand like QJo. what's wrong with raising? you'll probably get through, and if you don't you have established yourself as the aggressor in the hand, which could well make your decisions later in the hand easier. If you limp here, and one of the shorter stacks goes all in, do you call?
What if the SB had made it 20k preflop? Do you call then?
Limping at this stage of the tourney with shítty hands is asking for trouble.

I much prefer raising and then slowing down if I meet with serious resistance.

Then, when you are utterly unsure as to whether you are ahead, you make a tiny probe bet which re-opens the action, forcing you to now make a decision which is effectively for all of your chips. While you have a petty good hand with a lot of potential, I think that you are better off taking off the free card on the flop. Your hand isn't so big that you want to inflate the pot at any opportunity, and I think you're better off keeping the pot small.

When you get check-raised I think you are far too confident that all of your outs are live. As it turned out, they were (all bar one), but usually I don't think that they will be. Check-raising is a strong move, especially when You (ianmc38) havent raised pre-flop and hence are not as likely to make a bet. It says "I can afford to take the chance that you check behind and take a free card (because I usually have a monster like two pair or trips)"

If your opponent did have two pair, then your queens and jacks would have been no good to you. If he has a hand like QT,JT,Q9 then again your outs are reduced. If he has spades and a pair you could be in a world of hurt. Even hands that don't contain queens or jacks will often interfere with your outs - KT or 89 reduce your outs by one.

On balance, against the range of hands that I would put my opponent on given the flop action, I would be reluctant to commit my whole stack to the pot. You are almost certainly getting called now, and you are definitely behind. With the number of possible outs and scare-cards on the turn, I think that flat-calling his check-raise with the intention of winning or giving up the pot on the turn is a better play. I don't think you ever should have been in this spot though.

Fold or raise pre-flop.

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 01:41PM

Marq wrote:

For a start, you limp in when the blinds are quite large with a marginal hand like QJo. what's wrong with raising?

But they were sooted!!!

As i said in the OP I would usually raise here. I'd been quite active preflop. I thought that with the villain being so aggressive, that he may think I'm limping in with a monster in the hope of getting raised. I thought that this would misrepresent the strength of my hand.

Appreciate everyones comments

Hectorjelly · 17-08-2006 01:49PM

ianmc38 wrote:

But they were sooted!!!

As i said in the OP I would usually raise here. I'd been quite active preflop. I thought that with the villain being so aggressive, that he may think I'm limping in with a monster in the hope of getting raised. I thought that this would misrepresent the strength of my hand.

Appreciate everyones comments

Limping there is TERRIBLE, and allthough your reasoning sounds reasnable, it isnt! Poker & Pints clearly didnt put you on an overpair.

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 01:52PM

Hectorjelly wrote:

Limping there is TERRIBLE, and allthough your reasoning sounds reasnable, it isnt! Poker & Pints clearly didnt put you on an overpair.

Point 1. Lol. I know.

Point 2. See point 1 above

*Counterfeit* · 17-08-2006 01:58PM

Iano hows things it's Alan. €50 freeze out tonight? Interesting hand this and I have to say I like Marqs school of pre-flop thought. UTG I would usually have JsuitQsuit an automatic fold to any raise coming around to me. However, if it's been flat called around to you as it was, a play I like to make in this spot is to min raise the pot. The majority of the time I find that if there's a monster out there it's gonna come back over the top. Marginal hands like the KToff will usually just flat call. That way you have some idea as to the texture of the hands your up against. By the way I think that was a nightmare flop for your hand. If you were going to continue with it check re-raise was your only play, but you have to accept that you were on a draw here for your tournament life if he played back, which can't ever be the ideal scenario for your stack. Also don't accept your reasoning that your overcard draws at the j or Q were good. That's a good flop for a range of hands pivoting around the 8,9 and 10 and involving the Q or J, such as 10-J, 10-Q, 9-J, 8-J. Anyhow you took it down was the main thing.

Marq · 17-08-2006 02:02PM

ianmc38 wrote:

I thought that with the villain being so aggressive, that he may think I'm limping in with a monster in the hope of getting raised. I thought that this would misrepresent the strength of my hand.

When he check-raises you, either
a)he obviously doesn't put you on an overpair, or
b)he has you on an overpair, but can beat an overpair.

If you want to continue to misrepresent your hand as an overpair, I think that betting a third of the pot on the flop is a mistake. Is this what you would do with kings?

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 02:24PM

*Counterfeit* wrote:

Iano hows things it's Alan. €50 freeze out tonight?

Howdy Al, was gonna hit the new one in Silks but apparently it's next week? Thinking of going to the Jackpot or the SE

*Counterfeit* wrote:

UTG I would usually have JsuitQsuit an automatic fold to any raise coming around to me.

Al there cant be a raise preflop when you're UTG.

However, if it's been flat called around to you as it was, a play I like to make in this spot is to min raise the pot. The majority of the time I find that if there's a monster out there it's gonna come back over the top.

Minraising is awful as well. O course a monster will generally raise.

By the way I think that was a nightmare flop for your hand.

There aren't too many better flops for my hand

If you were going to continue with it check re-raise was your only play

How can i possibly check reraise in position headsup?

but you have to accept that you were on a draw here for your tournament life if he played back, which can't ever be the ideal scenario for your stack.

No I put him on one pair and tried to get him to fold it. He was on one pair for a large % of his stack. I had 6 outs to the nuts regardles fo whetehr he called or folded

Also don't accept your reasoning that your overcard draws at the j or Q were good. That's a good flop for a range of hands pivoting around the 8,9 and 10 and involving the Q or J, such as 10-J, 10-Q, 9-J, 8-J.

Sometimes they will be sometimes they won't be.

Whats your plan for tonight in anyways? Any use last night?

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 02:26PM

As far as I remember, Ian raises about 1 billion chips preflop with KK

ianmc38 · 17-08-2006 02:28PM

1.22 billion to be exact. I'm told it's a tell.

fuzzbox · 17-08-2006 02:33PM

ianmc38 wrote:

1.22 billion to be exact. I'm told it's a tell.

Not at all.
Your eye-twitch on the other hand ....

*Counterfeit* · 17-08-2006 02:50PM

Al there cant be a raise preflop when you're UTG.

Why not? Make upyour small blind and add the big with i.e If it's 2000/4,000 make it 8000 to play.

Minraising is awful as well. O course a monster will generally raise.

Which is why you minraise! If he hasn't raised already there's a good chance this was in the hope that someone might raise behind him and when it comes back he will pump. So now it's an easy fold for relatively cheap.

There aren't too many better flops for my hand

You are Q high!

How can i possibly check reraise in position headsup

I stand corrected on that I miisread your posts putting you as the first actor.

No I put him on one pair and tried to get him to fold it. He was on one pair for a large % of his stack. I had 6 outs to the nuts regardles fo whetehr he called or folded

At the time you thought you had 14 outs, am I correct? The 4 8's, 3 J's, 3 Q's and 4 K's. Meaning the other 31 cards were in his favour (accepted that a lot of these 31 were scare cards). What did you think he put you on?

Whats your plan for tonight in anyways?

am I'm gonna hit that €50 freeze out in the emporium, doing well in the tourneys lately. Cash game is gone to crap and I'm pretty certain I've got to the root of it- it's that pre-flop limit- a max of €25 preflop wont put the big stacks with marginal hands off and when they hit their two pair or draw on the flop they're taking me out in one felled swoop. Gonna take a week or two out from the cash game to revaluate and adjust. I'm almost positive that game in Silks is starting tonight. got a promo card last night advertising it.

Marq · 17-08-2006 02:54PM

Hold'em is a post-flop game. If you focussed on improving your post-flop play then you wouldn't need to worry about how little you can raise pre-flop.
PL and NL are different games that to an extent require different skillsets. I think that too many posters on these boards ignore this fact.

Hectorjelly · 17-08-2006 03:06PM

I think minraising QJ utg is marginally better than limping in this scenario, but a raise of 2 or 3bb is much better. Minraising is not a good strategy Counterfeit, you practically force the BB to play the hand and let people in cheaply.

*Counterfeit* · 17-08-2006 03:10PM

It quickly becomes NL on the flop at times and I agree that it's my pre-flop play that is destroying me. excellent recent example:

10 handed in the sporting I'm on the button. So far 2 or 3 players have limped for their two. Player second last from button makes it 10 to go. Player last from me calls. I look down to see A 3 off and flat call the ten. (What a disaster of a decision, it's not even worth the two if it had remained at that). Remarkably all other players bar us 3 fold.

Flop A-K-3 rainbow. Original raiser checks. next guy pots for €35. I quickly reraise to €125. now original raiser calls. (I had fallen in love with my hand and this call didn't phase me in the least). remaining player folds.

Turn card is a 5. Opponent checks and I make it €200 at which point he pushes for maybe €150 more and again without a moments thought I instacall.

as you guys and any half decent player would have guessed from the flop, he had the cowboys.

Now, I know I played that hand terrible throughout and I have a tendency to get very rash on a 'fair' flop, but am I right in thinking the start of that fiasco was my terribe decision pre-flop?

Hand from last night scalps game

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