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Will Bertie resign over payments???

  • 21-09-2006 04:14PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭


    theres been reports today that bertie recieved massive amounts of funds from a property developer when he was serving with albert reynolds leading to talks that he may now have to appear in pubic at the tribunals. apparently the developer wanted to build a football stadium in neilstown and the deal was behind doors with bertie and albert

    berties been on the radio being very outraged and indignatious but funnyly enough what hes actually said is that the facts of the report are true and that he did recieve the money and that his main proplem is the fact that someone leaked the truth! stating it was "scurrilous" "unjust" and "unfair" and demanding to know who did it.

    so will we now get a look beyond the teflon coating? or will, as usual, the media in this country doff the cap to ahern and hope it all blows over.

    lets remember frank connoly said something similar a good while back (his figuer was 80thousand ) and he got a court case for his troubles, not to mention the character assassination he suffered in the dail earlier this year. could it be he's right? the figure being bandied about is between 50k and100k. very similar to franks assertion so is the "most devious and most cunning of them all" corrupt as the rest of haugheys inner circle. and has he finally been caught out

    have fun lads:D


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,488 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    You'll never convince me that Bertie's clean but I'd be surprised if he didn't get away with it. His friends are far too powerful for anything bad to happen to him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Well your thread title is a little OTT even if it does have a question mark imo.

    From what I know he recieved a couple of grand from a few business men to cover the legal costs of his seperation. Which isn't a big deal if he didn't do anything in return for it.

    Around the time this happened (1993) it was the norm for Politicians to receive money, however normally it was for election purposes and not to settle a legal bill for legal seperation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Macker


    irish1 wrote:
    Well your thread title is a little OTT even if it does have a question mark imo.

    From what I know he recieved a couple of grand from a few business men to cover the legal costs of his seperation. Which isn't a big deal if he didn't do anything in return for it.

    Around the time this happened (1993) it was the norm for Politicians to receive money, however normally it was for election purposes and not to settle a legal bill for legal seperation.

    Hmmm I wonder did he pay gift taxes ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    why would someone give him thousands of euros if they didn't want something in return?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Macker wrote:
    Hmmm I wonder did he pay gift taxes ?

    Did he get over £10,000? Wasn't that pretty much the standard threshold between stranger for years in the late 80s and early 90s?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    how much does a divorce cost?

    was it a difficult case?

    can a succesful politician not afford his own divorce?

    did he have assets but not enough cash to pay fees and cecilia?


    he says it was money for his private life, but did he not list these monies at the time as a TD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭Macy


    Of more concern to me has been his attitude to the questioning, it being none of anyones business what he did personally. Eh, yes it is when you're Minister of Finance recieving payments from business men. A very Haughey/ Lawlor/ Burke/ Flynn style reaction to the questioning I thought.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Sleepy wrote:
    You'll never convince me that Bertie's clean but I'd be surprised if he didn't get away with it. His friends are far too powerful for anything bad to happen to him.

    Tbh, his "friends" will only protect him as long as they thing they have something to gain by keeping favour with him. For the same likely reasons that they allegedly bankrolled his divorce - to curry favour with a well-placed politician that looked to be upwardly mobile. It's become increasingly clear that FF are in for an absolute mauling by their acclaimed pet "tiger" when it turns on them at the next election., so I wouldn't be surprised to see him left hung out to dry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    who leaked the info from the tribunals, how many gov officials dislike bertie that much?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭Macy


    who leaked the info from the tribunals, how many gov officials dislike bertie that much?
    Maybe the same people who leaked the info that discredited other witnesses? Although Bertie very quiet about those leaks that actually benefitted him...


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lemming wrote:
    It's become increasingly clear that FF are in for an absolute mauling by their acclaimed pet "tiger" when it turns on them at the next election.

    Hmmmmm, latest opinion polls show an increase in Government popularity.

    If he received money, he should specify how much and from whom - or at least confirm was it a family member, a constituent, a stranger, a developer, some more information then he's already supplying. If he doesn't the speculation will mount. Only when we know more can we judge if it's a serious matter or not. What he's doing at the moment is stupid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Hmmmmm, latest opinion polls show an increase in Government popularity.

    Quelle surprise ... the automated FF script is working as intended .... talk about taking the one part of what I said that really wasn't important and taking it out of context.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Let me make myself realllllllllllllllllly clear, and hopefully automated radidly-pro FF posting scripts wont fire again folks. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience.

    Bertie's office is looking increasingly tenuous and there is, and has been, an extrordinarily consistent disatisfaction with the performance of the current government over the last couple of years. So. What can we conclude from this kiddies in light of remarks about Bertie's "friends" shielding him from any harm? That's right .. you guessed it .... he's being viewed as a bit of a hot potato that's nearing it's sell-by date by the brown-envelope people. Which means what? That they're going to prop him up? Or turn their attentions to the next "likely" up and coming politician who isn't beyond reproach? Because we all know that these people are very altruistic and don't crave power at all and give out money hand over fist to anyone who claims to be a politician ...
    If he received money, he should specify how much and from whom - or at least confirm was it a family member, a constituent, a stranger, a developer, some more information then he's already supplying. If he doesn't the speculation will mount. Only when we know more can we judge if it's a serious matter or not. What he's doing at the moment is stupid.

    What he's doing now isn't stupid. It's obvious. He's been caught iwth his hand in the proverbial jar. And people are dragging up statements to the contrary that HE made years ago about this exact sort of thing. Double-standards and what not. At a political level, this amounts to his being directly associated (as opposed to turning a blind eye and association by implication) with the likes lf lawlor or haughey in being "dirty". That wont amount to much in the short-term other than delight the opposition parties and make for some hysterical verbal exchanges in the Dail, but the voting public are feeling restive these days so in the long term Bertie is now a liability to FF (who are, it would seem, a liability unto themselves these days) ...


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lemming wrote:
    Quelle surprise ... the automated FF script is working as intended .... talk about taking the one part of what I said that really wasn't important and taking it out of context.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Let me make myself realllllllllllllllllly clear, and hopefully automated radidly-pro FF posting scripts wont fire again folks. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience.

    Whoah, now there's an overreaction.

    If you want to get all patronising and smart with the whole 'I'm bored but I'll explain it slowly' routine, you can send it to me via private messaging.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    you know as a fan of verbiage its fun to see the linguistic hoops aherns jumping through at the moment, he's really taking sophisty to a new level. of course this is when hes says something beyond "im not answering that question", which I'll be honest is the first time i recall him ever saying that. usually ahern has some vocal sidestep up his sleeve which neatly illustrates how much trouble i think hes in. I've never seen him handle an issue so badly.

    the whole nonsense about his communion money (unless that too was supplied by a particularly precient developer :D ) only shows a childishness and the fact he still wont reveal the amount he received with such vigor only leaves people wondering just how much it is? after all the guy was earning 75k a year as a minister. there isn't a bank in the country that wouldn't give him a loan of 10 to 50 thousand if he needed it with that paypacket, so the idea he only got 10 to 15 thousand is ridiculous. berties said the actual figure is a fraction of the one mentioned, but remember boys and girls 9/9ths is a fraction too! and that sort of lateral thinking with the facts is right up berties street :D

    the real question here is do the irish media have the guts to pursue this potentially explosive story? particularly considering the tribunals have issued warnings over covering it. and on that issue why was private evidence allowed to be admited to the tribunal? i thought the idea was to have everything in the open.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    The biggest clash here is over his right to privacy versus his role as a politician. If we expect one politician to reveal all his dealings, should we not carry this on and apply it to all who revealed information to the tribunal?

    Since he volunteered the information to the tribunal and it was not acted upon I'd be relatively happy. If this was something that he had not volunteered I'd have a very different opinion (as it was with Haughey essentially).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    there's a difference between revealing information, and revealing the truth, even if the information he revealed is true.

    Again, why would someone give him a gift of thousands of IR£ if they didn't expect something back in return (and this is the position Bertie himself took in relation to other corrupt politicians in the past)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Well his quote about no politician being beholden to others made in 97 is coming back to haunt him.

    personally I think he's slipped up, or maybe someone else has, but I'd say the odds of an early election have shortened.

    If other people I've talked to are to be believed he's in trouble in his constituency anyway, being told that there's a good chance he may not get elected at the next constituency anyway*. I have heard this from more than one of his constituents - so everyone is expecting to be lovebombed by Bertie over the next couple of months. Time for them to get out the shopping list of things they want to be done!

    *This was before the money allegations came up


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I would be very very surprised if bertie lost his seat.

    I doubt his constituents would swop a taoiseach for a back Bencher. It's a sad fact of electoral politics. Fear of lack of influence is the only reason Martin Cullen hasn't been forcibly retired years ago (and the sooner that ****in muppet is handed his p45 the better for everyone in this country)

    (oh, and i am aware that Mary O Rourke lost her seat last time even though she was a minister, so I might be completely wrong on this one)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Akrasia wrote:
    there's a difference between revealing information, and revealing the truth, even if the information he revealed is true.

    In that one is verifiable and the other tends to be subjective and ephermal most of the time in politics.
    Akrasia wrote:
    Again, why would someone give him a gift of thousands of IR£ if they didn't expect something back in return (and this is the position Bertie himself took in relation to other corrupt politicians in the past)

    A friend who felt sorry for another friend during his legal seperation and wanted to help him out with the legal costs? I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but it is just one of many viable situations. It's all too easy to polarise this kind of issue along party lines rather than debate it properly (imho).



    Essentially this (for me) breaks down into two distinct issues. The first is whether Bertie Ahern fulfilled his "public duty" when he gave information to the tribunal (like Pat Rabbitte etc did). The second is why information that was given confientially to a tribunal was leaked and whether we can treat it as accurate when there are many reasons for many groups to disort the information in one way or another.

    As for the first, I think that any politician who gave information to the tribunal fulfilled their duty and should not be required to give this information to the media/public, I would believe that the tribunal would decide whether or not this is necessary.

    The second is a much more difficult question. I cannot understand the lack of condemnation of the leaking of confidential testamony. This should not be acceptable in our society imho. We set up tribunals for a reason and all that. Also it would be naive to automatically believe any leak as being more true than what Bertie says. Such a leak could easily have a motive far different to "revealing the truth" and such a motive is the least likely, unfortunately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    RTE say sources close to Bertie believe that if the truth came out about the payments it would go away very quickly!!!

    FFS just make a full statement then and let this story end. I mean if they believe that why all this bother about not telling the public who he received money from and how much.

    The question that could arise is did he receive money from friends to pay for his legal bills or did he use his position of Minister to influence business people into giving him money, i.e. would they have given him the money if he wasn't a TD or Minister.

    As he said himself in 1997 "Public representatives must not be under a personal financial obligation to anyone"


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Bertie also said :
    Financial gifts have to be declared for capital acquisitions tax purposes, if they exceed the threshold. In principle, apart from token presentations in respect of functions performed at home and abroad, neither politicians nor officials should accept personal gifts of value from outside their family. However, as I have said over the past few days, campaign contributions or contributions for political expenses are of course in a different category. Any other situation is open to misinterpretation

    Link: http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0472/D.0472.199612030019.html


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,842 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Akrasia wrote:
    (oh, and i am aware that Mary O Rourke lost her seat last time even though she was a minister, so I might be completely wrong on this one)
    In fairness to Mammy, she worked very, very hard at alienating a sizeable chunk of the electorate in her constituency. She wasn't known to Mullingar people as the "Minister for Athlone" for nothing.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,842 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Lemming wrote:
    Quelle surprise ... the automated FF script is working as intended .... talk about taking the one part of what I said that really wasn't important and taking it out of context.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Let me make myself realllllllllllllllllly clear, and hopefully automated radidly-pro FF posting scripts wont fire again folks. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience.
    Lemming, behave. You should know better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭skearon


    nesf wrote:
    I cannot understand the lack of condemnation of the leaking of confidential testamony. This should not be acceptable in our society imho. We set up tribunals for a reason and all that. Also it would be naive to automatically believe any leak as being more true than what Bertie says. Such a leak could easily have a motive far different to "revealing the truth" and such a motive is the least likely, unfortunately.

    I agree totally, someone is trying to make serious mischief, plus I think it is important to remember that the tribunal is NOT investigating the Taoiseach in relation to the information he gave to them that has now been leaked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    this started out by more then just a leak, the mahon tribunal wanted to details from the family court of details of seperation, financial details I presume not personal ones, and Bertie went to the high court to stop this. So Mahon tribunal are interested in this money as yet unpaid after 10 years. Its not just a media creation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    irish1 wrote:
    Well your thread title is a little OTT even if it does have a question mark imo.

    From what I know he recieved a couple of grand from a few business men to cover the legal costs of his seperation. Which isn't a big deal if he didn't do anything in return for it.

    Around the time this happened (1993) it was the norm for Politicians to receive money, however normally it was for election purposes and not to settle a legal bill for legal seperation.

    Yeah, no big deal, sure a couple of grand for the auld seperation will no nobody any harm, will it??? DID HE PAY TAX ON IT??? You try earning 50K without declaring it and paying income tax on it and Revenue will literally RUIN You. You'll be hit for all the original tax amount plus interest and penalities which ALWAYS equals at least the same amount again of what you originally owed so you'll have to pay twice what you should have paid in the first place!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Darragh29 wrote:
    Yeah, no big deal, sure a couple of grand for the auld seperation will no nobody any harm, will it??? DID HE PAY TAX ON IT??? You try earning 50K without declaring it and paying income tax on it and Revenue will literally RUIN You. You'll be hit for all the original tax amount plus interest and penalities which ALWAYS equals at least the same amount again of what you originally owed so you'll have to pay twice what you should have paid in the first place!
    The point I was "trying" to make was the op's title was misleading, as I have posted above he should release all the details but we shouldn't all start shouting "CORRUPTION" from teh rooftops before we know the facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,077 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    who leaked the info from the tribunals, how many gov officials dislike bertie that much?

    Maybe it was McDowell who leaked the info...

    Ahern's reaction to all of this is a disgrace.

    Great article in today's Indo by Gene Kerrigan about the whole affair.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭baztard


    Akrasia wrote:
    why would someone give him thousands of euros if they didn't want something in return?

    I think they were friends. So it was more of a case of helping him through hard times. The whole 'scandal' over this is ridiculus. It happened 13 years ago, long before the politicans had to be careful about who gave them money. This dirty and desperate politics by whoever leaked the story. Watch now as the opposition become 'outraged' by it. A load of sh** if you ask me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    baztard wrote:
    I think they were "friends".

    I've corrected your original quote baztard. To read from yesterdays' Times news paper on the matter ... I quote from the leading article, front page, paragraph 2:
    "He [Mr Ahern] offered repeatedly to repay the money. It's a debt of honour to him. He wants to repay them but the boys won't take it back at the moment", said one source

    Excuse me whilst I p*ss myself with laughter at the naked contempt which that quote gives to joe-public.

    Ah, d'ladz "wont take it back" ... riiiiiiiiiiiiiight ..... *cough* ahem. Yeah.

    It happened 13 years ago, long before the politicans had to be careful about who gave them money.

    I think you'll find that politicians have always had to be careful about who gave them money and why. It's just more likely to be reported and/or acted on before throwing said politicians to the public in the voting booth.

    All that controversial land-rezoning courtesy of Liam Lawlor occurred years ago (to use another example). Should that be forgotten about? No? Why not? Answer that and you'll find a very similar answer to the same question regarding the current issue as well.
    This dirty and desperate politics by whoever leaked the story. Watch now as the opposition become 'outraged' by it. A load of sh** if you ask me.

    So you have absolutely no bother with elected representatives .. indeed the office of Taoiseach ... acting in a questionable and possibly corrupt manner?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    its funny how the story is now shifting to aherns actions dealing with the story. was listening to newstalk earlier today and apparently bertie was in the courts threatening the papers and media with law suits if they coverd the story, apparently he got a heads up just before it broke . many of the comentators were saying if the privacy bill was in full effect we wouldve heard nowt about any of this. of course this is comming from journalists who arent exactly in favor of the bill. still doesnt say alot about our democracy when the taoiseach's acting like that, in fact it sounds more like a dictatorship brow beating the media to do what it wants, definetly a disturbing element to this

    funny also how the attention has been focused on his marital seperation cost when the original story was about bertie getting a payment along with albert from a developer looking to build in clondalkin. whys everyone forgot about that one? apparently now the payments are "group loans" from several individuals who ,well, dont want the money back:D can someone please point me in the direction of these creditors seeing as the banks have been quite rude bastards to me! you know,what with actually wanting the money back along with some extortionate interest :eek: the real issue here though once again is the amount. the guys on a quater of a million a year now and he still hasnt paid them back? i dont want to over estimate the amount but when the haughy story broke everyone thought it was just a million, then turned out to be 9. so when bertie says the figures are "off the wall" is it because its too big, or massively too small. the obvious intention was its too big, but this is bertie were talking about so you have to scrutenise everthing he says from all possible angles

    fact is we only have berties word that this has anything to do with his seperation at all. it could be just spin to deflect away from a corrupt payment.if im missing some facts please tell me but the only official word from the tribunals was about not reporting on this issue or any other confidential matter before them. playing the sympathy card isnt actually a new tactics in politics and you can bet FF are in full media spin mode now. some have said that he's been cleared from investigation by the tribunal but lets be honest how much faith can we actually have in them? in ten years theyve only convicted one corrupt politician. and he's been out of power for over 15yrs! you seriously expect em to jail bertie, a serving taoiseach? thats why this thing was leaked. do i think its all alturism on the part of the informant? no. but most of the most damaging revelations in this country have been on the back of leaks, not government bodies doing their jobs to root out corruption , malpractice or outright criminality. you only have to see how many bankers went to jail over the non resident account scandal to see that. hell even when they had haughey by the balls harney steps up and ensures the guy stays free. we wont get justice from the tribunals, just alot of waffle and protected criminals whom you cant convict cause the evidence revealed in a tribunal is inadmisable in a court of law. that why we need people like the informant, is it nice? no. but this is ireland and its the only way to get the truth out. it shames me to say that about my country but its an undeniable fact that people that come forward to expose corruption end up on the dole or working on the aran islands for their trouble. we simply dont have a culture of accountability in high places.

    oh, one last thing. MACDOWEL?....were art thou! maybe hes grovelling to frank connolly who seems to have been right all along. wonder if he'll get his money back from the defamation case :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭baztard


    Lemming wrote:
    All that controversial land-rezoning courtesy of Liam Lawlor occurred years ago (to use another example). Should that be forgotten about? No? Why not? Answer that and you'll find a very similar answer to the same question regarding the current issue as well.

    So you have absolutely no bother with elected representatives .. indeed the office of Taoiseach ... acting in a questionable and possibly corrupt manner?

    Theres a huge difference between Liam Lawlor, who blatantly took money in return for political favours, and Bertie who took money not in return for political favours.

    I dont think Bertie is or was corrupt. This was just an ethical hic-cup.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 313 ✭✭Dalfiatach


    How many times are we going to get the same old defence?

    A group of "good friends" who just happen to be rich, and who by amazing coincidence also happen to be largely made up of property developers, come together and give a politician loads of money (that they don't want back!), purely out of the goodness of their hearts, to pay for....Haughey's AIB debts, Lenihan's operation, Bertie's divorce...

    Come off it.

    In 1993 Bertie was Minister for Finance. He was earning over £50K a year, had one of the safest seats in the country, and was already seen as Haughey's heir apparent and a future Taoiseach. And everyone knew his marriage had hit the rocks, it wasn't exactly a dirty little secret to be hidden from Holy Catholic Ireland, not in 1993. And yer telling me he couldn't get 10 grand from the bank to cover his legal bill for the separation?

    The whole "divorce legal bills" thing is a smokescreen, a diversion, designed to make "poor auld Bertie" sympathetic to the masses in this one. Those nasty Opposition people, hounding de Bert over de lads helping him out in a difficult time in his life.

    Rubbish. Anyone falls for this is a fool.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Macker


    baztard wrote:
    Theres a huge difference between Liam Lawlor, who blatantly took money in return for political favours, and Bertie who took money not in return for political favours.

    I dont think Bertie is or was corrupt. This was just an ethical hic-cup.
    An ethical hic-cup eh!
    Are you a PR person ?If not you should be for that comment


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭ircoha


    Sleepy wrote:
    You'll never convince me that Bertie's clean but I'd be surprised if he didn't get away with it. His friends are far too powerful for anything bad to happen to him.

    Well put Sleepy.

    CCI [Corrupt Corporate Ireland] run this country which is why big builders and other corporates pose a very real threat to this democracy.

    One only had to look at the gathering in the K Club, under UK rule, to see that the Soldiers of Destiny and their supporters dont give a rats arse about the common people. The double standards were breathtaking: all the "bussed" people had to surrender thier mobile fones and produce ID, but not the people in the corporate boxes.

    What was a proper scandal is that we taxpayers shelled out €16m to Ryder Cup LLP, and all we got was golf on the radio. We are the laughing stock of Europe.

    I was delighted to see that while CCI can buy the government and buy the planners etc and stop the common people from seeing it live on RTE, they could not buy the weather. I, for one, was delighted to see them pissed on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Seamus Brennan on "The week in Politics" kept saying over and over that Bertie was listening to was being said. He seemed to hinting that Bertie will reveal more in time.

    The longer this goes on the worse it looks and more and more damage is been done to the FF vote. Is someone looking for an early election? will Cowen be forced into a give away budget to repair the damage?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ircoha wrote:
    Well put Sleepy.

    CCI [Corrupt Corporate Ireland]One only had to look at the gathering in the K Club, under UK rule, to see that the Soldiers of Destiny and their supporters dont give a rats arse about the common people. The double standards were breathtaking: all the "bussed" people had to surrender thier mobile fones and produce ID, but not the people in the corporate boxes.

    What was a proper scandal is that we taxpayers shelled out €16m to Ryder Cup LLP, and all we got was golf on the radio. We are the laughing stock of Europe.

    There are very valid criticisms to be made about at least the manner in which Bertie is handling this issue; and possibly there are serious questions about the fundamental wrong alleged but I guess that depends on what comes to light and what actually happened.

    Either way, obscuring the whole thing with comments about the Ryder Cup, the hysterical nonsense about UK rule and soundbites about being a laughing stock of Europe only obscure the issue and add nothing to the debate. The issue here is Bertie and donations, linking it to the jurisdiction of the security contracts for the K Club just dilutes it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    was listening to a vox pop on the radio and someone came up with a very interesting point. what if this is a FF leak? on the surface it look ridiculous but the comentator said if this was under investigation by the tribunals and the first we heard of it was in the tribunals what the enduring image would be is the taoiseach in the dock. now we all know about its, its not news and bertie even comes off sympathetic to some people. now when he talks about it in the tribunal hes looks likes he's been hounded into it instead of a scandal breaking in full view of the public.

    could this be true? i dont know but its a nice bit of spin if it is!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    was listening to a vox pop on the radio and someone came up with a very interesting point. what if this is a FF leak? on the surface it look ridiculous but the comentator said if this was under investigation by the tribunals and the first we heard of it was in the tribunals what the enduring image would be is the taoiseach in the dock. now we all know about its, its not news and bertie even comes off sympathetic to some people. now when he talks about it in the tribunal hes looks likes he's been hounded into it instead of a scandal breaking in full view of the public.

    could this be true? i dont know but its a nice bit of spin if it is!


    it was strange he talked about the "impeccable sourcing" of mark hennesy's story, Bertie knew about this because he was already dealing with the tribunal in the courts the week before wanting to have the financial details of his seperation. So he could have leaked it muddy the water against the tribunal.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Well still no word from the Teflon one. I wish I had friends who would pay off my debts, but then again if they did I would have to pay the revenue for the privilage. Of course if they are loans then thats different, thats of course if I pay them back at if no interest is accrued is that not also something that the revenue can pursue him over.

    This is of course putting aside the fact he got money from rich property developers especially witH FF's long corrupt history of getting hand outs from these types. At best Bertie has been a complete and utter idiot at worst he is just as bad as the rest of the bunch and either of those is not worthy to lead this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Just a thought crossed my mind, we didn't see Mama Harney's resignation as leader of the PD's and her position as Tanaiste coming up on the radar??? Bertie seems to have this rather hapless look on his face over the last day or two almost like he knows that this is the sword he is going to fall on. Imagine the political landscape that would exist if Bertie did a Mary Harney and handed over the reigns to Biffo or someone else like Dermot Ahern!?!?! This would make for an interesting election!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    You are joking he will do the usual FF tactic of brass necking it out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Not a snowballs chance in Hell, it will be interesting to hear his statment though and see who gave him the money and if they money was purely for Legal bills or whether it included money which was part of his legal seperation.

    It will also be interesting to see opinion polls in the coming weeks to see what affect this will have. He has dragged it out far too long and no matter what his statement is now damage has been done.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If it's £10,000 or less then I'd say its going to be ok as it would be less than the old gift tax threshold.
    I dont know when they divorced exactly but was it before the ethics law was passed too? Ie before such a donation would have to be declared as a financial interest?

    If it's both then the personal nature of this takes precedence over the political football it has become.I notice that the politicians are being very very carefull with this by still adding comments like,its a very personal thing.They are rightly criticising the going to ground on it, but then we'll have to see really what he says on that later today.

    In my opinion,theres many things that Ahern can be criticised for without this,though I would like to know now that a fuss is being made who donated the money and if theres any trail of favouritism following it.

    If there isnt,then paradoxically for the Bertie haters,he could actually come out of this with the sympathy factor.
    Opposition politicians know this well, thats why they are proceeding but very carefully.
    They have their get out clause.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    As someone pointed out this story has really only got legs in the "mejia" and as expected - the Opposition. My own reading is that it is very close to encroaching on someone's private life. His reaction to the whole thing is similar to how he reacts to any other questions on his private life. He doesn't talk about it. More likely he will get some sympathy. TBH the Opposition should worry about other things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    gandalf wrote:
    Well still no word from the Teflon one. I wish I had friends who would pay off my debts, but then again if they did I would have to pay the revenue for the privilage. Of course if they are loans then thats different, thats of course if I pay them back at if no interest is accrued is that not also something that the revenue can pursue him over.

    .

    have to ask, whens a loan a loan. and whens it a mortagage :D this has been owed for 13yrs! 7yrs less than the average mortgage term back in 93.

    also it turns out its nearly a dozen business men who lent him the money, i presume at least one of them has a reciept;), no?, oh well.

    just got a heads up on this issue anyway. according to radio reports bertie is going on 6.01 news on RTE tonight to explain the whole issue. cours this is bertie so god knows what that means but should be compulsive viewing anyway. wonder if sharon will goes easy on him:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,959 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    How do you know he didn't pay the dozen or so guys back? Not being smart just I didn't think we (the Public) knew whether or not he paid them back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    gandalf wrote:
    You are joking he will do the usual FF tactic of brass necking it out.


    agreed, this is ireland. our politicians dont resign when theyre caught up to no good, they resign after being leaned on by party superiors. and seeing as berties taoiseach theres no one to do the leaning. just look how quiet macdowels being over this whole affair. he went on ad nauseum about how he wouldnt let sinn fein into power because of criminality yet here we have a very dodgy situation with bertie (and remember boys and girls we only have berties word it has anything at all to do with his seperation) and the rothwielers slumbering. when you remember what happened to ivor calleley over getting his house painted you begin to put the hypocracy on display here in perspective


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭skearon


    here we have a very dodgy situation with bertie

    Why don't you wait until he speaks about it tonight before deciding if it is 'dodgy' or not.

    What is dodgy is the leak from the tribunal, whoever leaked it could now allow individuals who are actually corrupt go free, e.g. someone currently under investigation might go to the high court and say he/she will no longer co-operate with the tribunal and as they now have a fear that their constitutional right to privacy could be breached; I hope the court would not uphold such an arguement, but it is possible.

    Also with FG/Lab so desperate for power and with the timing of the leak, the media should concentrate their resources on finding the source of the leak and produce a real story.


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