CIE seek rise in bus and train fares

Champ · 12-11-2006 11:10PM #1

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=248355192&p=z48356x64&n=248356070

*Groans*
My Perspective in regards to a colleague who lives further away from work than me and commutes by car:
-Gets in faster than me
-Pays less for commutting than me(i thought one of the points of public transport was to be more economic grrr)
-Doesn't have to put up with strikes offical and especially unoffical(for often silly reasons though at this stage besting "the roster is now printed" excuse will be tough:rolleyes:)
-Doesn't have to put up with continual price hikes

Time to accelerate plans to get motorised.

admiralofthefleet · 13-11-2006 02:05AM

was it not announced a couple of years ago that cie would be seeking fare increases every January to reflect inflation over the last year.

but i agree with you, fares should be cheap to encourage people to use public transport, but they arent, imo the luas is very expensive, €2.10 one way from stephens green to dundrum is daylight robbery, it should be more like €1.

if they go up again its only going to put more people off using public transport.

gar

Champ · 13-11-2006 08:56AM

was it not announced a couple of years ago that cie would be seeking fare increases every January to reflect inflation over the last year.

Aye, fair enough but its a one way direction so i doubt anyone would use it pernamently.

imo the luas is very expensive

At least you got the luas as an alternative:D Here in the West Bus Eireann has a virtual monopoly and its for that very reason they can get away with all sorts of demands or public transport gets crippled through strikes.

if they go up again its only going to put more people off using public transport.

Case in point example been me.:D

I really would be curious to see what would happen if CIE was broken up and public transport was fully opened to the private sector.. apart from steam out of the unions' ears.:D
Alright when they tried it in the UK it didn't go as well as planned but at least we can learn from any mistakes they made:D, besides which i would love a choice of > 1 Company.

Okay not comparing like with like but remember when Eircom initially released ADSL 512kbs for the "value" price of 90 euros? With the competition of EsatBT, UTV, Digiweb etc you can now get 3 Meg packages for < 50 euros. This progress didn't come about by raising prices to reflect inflation but presumingly by making their operations more lean and efficent which was induced by having competition. An inducement that CIE lacks with their virtual monopoly.

markpb · 13-11-2006 09:36AM

Champ wrote:

besides which i would love a choice of > 1 Company

I know you're not talking about Dublin but in Dublin, privatisation will most likely be per route. That means that for most people, there won't be a choice - it'll simply be a different company operating the same fare structure as DB. If the company operates the route efficiently, they make more money.

If they cut corners or don't live up to their tender agreement, the route can be given to another company. It means the service level should rise but it'll make no difference to the money you pay.

spareman · 13-11-2006 09:46AM

markpb wrote:

but it'll make no difference to the money you pay.

Really? you believe this then yeah?

markpb · 13-11-2006 09:48AM

What do you think will happen? Assuming we do it "properly" and the fare level is set by the DTA/DoT.

spareman · 13-11-2006 10:01AM

markpb wrote:

What do you think will happen? Assuming we do it "properly" and the fare level is set by the DTA/DoT.

I think that stagecoach and one or two other big companies will come in here, bringing with them all the old buses we sold them over the years, and they will buy up all the competition untill they control the cartell of route's, so it wont matter what the DTA say. Would it not be better for public money to fund public service's?

markpb · 13-11-2006 10:22AM

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of privatisation, I think there are huge problems with (bus) transport in Dublin and DB isn't even in the top ten. I don't think we would spend the money to make privatisation work - the Mayor of London said if anyone wants to do what they did, they should be prepared for it to be a black hole for money.

Mostly I don't think we have the political balls to do it properly. I'm afraid that we'll end up making the same mistakes as several English towns, with worse service levels and no proper regulator to fix it. Anyone who thinks privatisation would work here should look at the NTR / Westlink or the Comreg / Eircom / Smart debacles and ask themselves whether the government could implement privatisation for the right reasons, in a transparent and fair way and regulate the hell out of it.

D'Peoples Voice · 13-11-2006 01:22PM

markpb wrote:

Anyone who thinks privatisation would work here should look at the NTR / Westlink or the Comreg / Eircom / Smart debacles

You forgot to add Irish Ferries (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Irish life - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Greencore - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff)
A bit of balance goes a long way I believe

markpb · 13-11-2006 01:44PM

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

You forgot to add Irish Ferries (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Irish life - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Greencore - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff)
A bit of balance goes a long way I believe

Maybe I'm a little naive but I'd see the major public transport carrier in our capital city as being slightly more important than a shipping company or a sugar company.

If they had screwed up the privatisation of Greencore, how many people would be inconvenienced? On the other hand, when they screwed up the privatisation of Eircom by not giving the regulator a fighting chance, tens of thousands of Smart customers lost out and the chances of any new telecoms companies coming in to compete with Eircom is slim.

If they had screwed up the sale of Irish Ferries, how many people would that affect? NTR, on the other hand, were given free reign over a vital piece of Dublin's infrastructure with an expensive buy-back clause and no ability for DoT to tell them to support integrated tolling.

Yes, they managed to get one or two of them right but on the balance of things, would you trust them to get dublin bus route privatisation right considering the huge affect it'll have on hundreds of thousands of people if they mess up?

Chris_533976 · 13-11-2006 05:32PM

Yearly ****ing price rise. I hate it. The government are spending a fortune on roads but dont try to convince people to use public transport by stopping CIE fleecing everyone.

Just My View · 13-11-2006 05:40PM

No need for a price rise at all.
They could make all the money they want by charging rent to the people standing at the bus stops.

shltter · 14-11-2006 02:45AM

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

You forgot to add Irish Ferries (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Irish life - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff), Greencore - (fantastic value since for customers - bad for staff)
A bit of balance goes a long way I believe

Irish ferries if you have no conscience and dont mind people being exploited and you dont mind paying the extra just did a quick check and for a sailing on the same day returning the same day both with a car and the same number of passengers

Irish ferries 346 euro

Stena 178 euro

So bad for staff bad for customers Good for shareholders

Irish life well it just so happens that I recently had to take out a life insurance policy and eagle star were half the price of Irish life

And Greencore yes the sugar business is safe in their hands say no more

Slice · 14-11-2006 09:13AM

Champ: My Perspective in regards to a colleague who lives further away from work than me and commutes by car:
-Gets in faster than me
-Pays less for commutting than me(i thought one of the points of public transport was to be more economic grrr)

Are there really people out there who pay less to commute by car than by public transport?? I find this incredible - I don't think open competition is the answer but how can a public transport provider justify this? I know it's to view it naively but there has to be cost savings associated with many people sharing the same mode of transport to work than each and everyone using their own cars?

What I think is needed most is for CIE and every other company providing public transport in this country to have a customer service charter. I know that CIE already have but it needs to be taken seriously and CIE need to be benchmarked against their ability to deliver on this charter instead of just paying lip service to the concept.

shltter · 14-11-2006 10:09AM

Slice wrote:

Are there really people out there who pay less to commute by car than by public transport?? I find this incredible - I don't think open competition is the answer but how can a public transport provider justify this? I know it's to view it naively but there has to be cost savings associated with many people sharing the same mode of transport to work than each and everyone using their own cars?

What I think is needed most is for CIE and every other company providing public transport in this country to have a customer service charter. I know that CIE already have but it needs to be taken seriously and CIE need to be benchmarked against their ability to deliver on this charter instead of just paying lip service to the concept.

Depends how you count if you only count petrol then maybe

But if you add in the price of a car

Insurance

Road tax

NCT

Servicing and repairs

And the cost of our C02 payments that we are going to have to start making soon

Public transport is much cheaper

DadaKopf · 14-11-2006 10:30AM

I'll gladly spend more if we get a better service. Not much more. We should give the drivers a quid pro quo.

shltter · 14-11-2006 10:50AM

DadaKopf wrote:

I'll gladly spend more if we get a better service. Not much more. We should give the drivers a quid pro quo.

I don't think passengers should have to pay more if the government is serious about encouraging people to use public transport then the government should pay the increased costs.
Of course only if CIE can prove that they are genuine increased costs like fuel and electricity and national wage agreements I dont think the government should hand over money wily nily to pay for mismanagement inefficiencies

Slice · 14-11-2006 10:56AM

shltter: I don't think passengers should have to pay more if the government is serious about encouraging people to use public transport then the government should pay the increased costs.

I agree, isn't CIE's public subsidy one of the lowest in the EU?

shltter · 14-11-2006 10:59AM

Slice wrote:

I agree, isn't CIE's public subsidy one of the lowest in the EU?

They dont refer to it as a subsidy anymore it is a subvention or a Public service obligation payment
And yes it is one of the lowest in the EU

Champ · 14-11-2006 11:07AM

Are there really people out there who pay less to commute by car than by public transport??

Well in my case i pay 33 euros for a full working week with public transport.
Colleague pays ~20 euros petrol.

Not sure how this factors in the long run if other car expenses are accounted for.

Ok assuming everyone works 52.177457 weeks(i know not true):D
For me: 33 * 52.177457 = 1721.85608 work commuting expense a year
With CIE price hike:
35.97 * 52.177457 = 1876.82313

For colleague:
20 * 52.177457 = 1043.54914 work commuting expense(petrol) a year

I probably wouldn't actual mind paying the extra but:
(A) All these strikes of which a lot are "unoffical" can make the service unreliable.
(B) Can be very crowded especially in the evenings.
(C) Consistency of service. I actually know some of the drivers at this stage. Mostly the ones who always appear on time, leave on time etc...:) Others tend to vary their performance alarmingly which just gives the good ones a bad name:(

14-11-2006 11:24AM

Add in his insurance costs too...

his tax...

it starts to even out, and then tip the scales again

shltter · 14-11-2006 11:27AM

Champ wrote:

Well in my case i pay 33 euros for a full working week with public transport.
Colleague pays ~20 euros petrol.

Not sure how this factors in the long run if other car expenses are accounted for.

Ok assuming everyone works 52.177457 weeks(i know not true):D
For me: 33 * 52.177457 = 1721.85608 work commuting expense a year
With CIE price hike:
35.97 * 52.177457 = 1876.82313

For colleague:
20 * 52.177457 = 1043.54914 work commuting expense(petrol) a year

I probably wouldn't actual mind paying the extra but:
(A) All these strikes of which a lot are "unoffical" can make the service unreliable.
(B) Can be very crowded especially in the evenings.
(C) Consistency of service. I actually know some of the drivers at this stage. Mostly the ones who always appear on time, leave on time etc...:) Others tend to vary their performance alarmingly which just gives the good ones a bad name:(

Apples and oranges

How much did your colleague pay for the car
His insurance
Road tax
NCT
Servicing tyres brakes and general upkeep

His outgoings are many multiples of yours in all likelyhood

http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp

MarkoP11 · 14-11-2006 11:36AM

Champ wrote:

Well in my case i pay 33 euros for a full working week with public transport.
Colleague pays ~20 euros petrol.

Not sure how this factors in the long run if other car expenses are accounted for.

Ok assuming everyone works 52.177457 weeks(i know not true):D
For me: 33 * 52.177457 = 1721.85608 work commuting expense a year
With CIE price hike:
35.97 * 52.177457 = 1876.82313

A annual Bus/Rail/Luas ticket for any journey within about 20 miles of Dublin, which is valid on Nightlink, Airport Express, late night Luas (if it runs) is €1400 and tax relief at source is available, its cheaper than the insurance alone some people are paying

Champ · 14-11-2006 12:03PM

Alright points taken. Public transport is indeed more economic even with the continual price hikes, with all things considered.:)

Out of interest i wonder do most car owners consider the extra expense worth it and if not why don't they use public transport if its viable?(i.e coverage);)

John R · 14-11-2006 12:15PM

MarkoP11 wrote:

A annual Bus/Rail/Luas ticket for any journey within about 20 miles of Dublin, which is valid on Nightlink, Airport Express, late night Luas (if it runs) is €1400 and tax relief at source is available, its cheaper than the insurance alone some people are paying

If on the higher rate of tax that would mean the actual cost would be just over €800 a year.

The fact is many people are paying more than they need to for public transport by not using all the alternatives, I knew a number of people who payed for 4 trips a day by cash 5 days a week. The cheapest commuter ticket option would have halved the cost and that is without the tax relief scheme.

spank_inferno · 14-11-2006 12:22PM

The original poster is dead right. Commuting by car is much cheaper.
Its cheaper because my time is important too.

I commute with my partner to and from work: Wicklow town to Dublin

All told, insurance fuel, and the rest our car bill = €4670 approx
2 weekly buseireann tickets for 48 working weeks = €3840

difference: €830

considering that we save: 1.5hrs a day each in travel
travel in the comfort of my own car, in the company of my significant other I see no downside.

ps: I commuted by bus for 4 years - never again

John R · 14-11-2006 12:23PM

Champ wrote:

Alright points taken. Public transport is indeed more economic even with the continual price hikes, with all things considered.:)

Out of interest i wonder do most car owners consider the extra expense worth it and if not why don't they use public transport if its viable?(i.e coverage);)

Price is not a high motivator for most people, people love complaining about prices but they still willingly pay them.

TBH the same people that will bitch about a €0.05 rise in bus/rail fares will then walk into starbucks and pay €5 for a cup of coffee. In comparison with the cost of living in general in Ireland the fares are not particularly expensive.

They should be much cheaper IMO but as long as the operators rely mostly on their fares revenue to cover operating costs then they are going to be constantly pushing for fare increases.

John R · 14-11-2006 12:30PM

spank_inferno wrote:

The original poster is dead right. Commuting by car is much cheaper.
Its cheaper because my time is important too.

I commute with my partner to and from work: Wicklow town to Dublin

All told, insurance fuel, and the rest our car bill = €4670 approx
2 weekly buseireann tickets for 48 working weeks = €3840

difference: €830

considering that we save: 1.5hrs a day each in travel
travel in the comfort of my own car, in the company of my significant other I see no downside.

ps: I commuted by bus for 4 years - never again

Once you split the costs of a car with more than one commuter then it makes a huge difference, remember though that most commuter car journeys are single occupancy.

Where the equation becomes very fuzzy is with the other benefits of car ownership. The fact is that most of the car costs are in the ownership and not the commute. Once people reason that they need a car anyway then they see the cost of public transport as competing against the petrol cost of driving the same journey.

It is because of this that I believe car tax (and if possible basic third party insurance) costs should be folded into fuel prices and the widespread use of variable congestion charges should be brought in. People who commute into our cities by car need to be confronted with a bill that properly reflects the financial and social costs of their actions.

Of course we need a proper public transport alternative as well but in a city where the only option for most is road based it is chicken and egg time. Without removing the cars the bus service will remain poor and without a vast improvement to bus services there will not be any way of coaxing people out of cars short of barricading roads.

D'Peoples Voice · 14-11-2006 01:52PM

shltter wrote:

Irish ferries if you have no conscience and dont mind people being exploited

No you're right, I don't care, because no-one is forced to stay with any employer, our laws don't allow slavery(prostitutes aside), therefore they must stay with the employer out of choice.

shltter wrote:

and you dont mind paying the extra just did a quick check and for a sailing on the same day returning the same day both with a car and the same number of passengers

Nice example and very realistic I'm sure, after all who would want to go further than Holyhead. I've already looked into this for football games, it's almost impossible to get up to Liverpool or Manchester for a football game or shopping and return the same day.

shltter wrote:

Irish ferries 346 euro
Stena 178 euro
So bad for staff bad for customers Good for shareholders

I did a quote, for a couple taking their car over to Holyhead on a ferry(not a swift) on a FRIDAY and returning home to Dublin on a SUNDAY. The cost, incl a cabin was Irish Ferries EUR 336, Steana GBP 299.51 or EUR 442 (according to www.xe.com).
Prices will always differ on when you go, however I do think my example is more realistic.

shltter wrote:

Irish life well it just so happens that I recently had to take out a life insurance policy and eagle star were half the price of Irish life

think you may be mistaken, would love to have seen the details you input. Irish life still have the lion share of the market, while i admit they are not the cheapest in my experience, they are not far off usually.

shltter wrote:

And Greencore yes the sugar business is safe in their hands say no more

if Greencore were so expensive, why was it that so few other sugar distributors did not break into the irish market? As regards the sugar business being safe in theri hands, you clearly haven't read about the effects of EU subsidy change on the rest of Europe. Greencore were not alone.

shltter · 14-11-2006 03:05PM

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

No you're right, I don't care, because no-one is forced to stay with any employer, our laws don't allow slavery(prostitutes aside), therefore they must stay with the employer out of choice.

Well unless your on a work permit that ties you to an employer or of course you are living on the ship hard to organise another job then.
That may be the type of society that you want to live in where you bring in foreign Nationals and take advantage of the fact that they are desparate for work and pay them a rate far below what Irish people could live on.
Perhaps we could build a ghetto somewhere for them and we can look forward to race riots in a few years time.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Nice example and very realistic I'm sure, after all who would want to go further than Holyhead. I've already looked into this for football games, it's almost impossible to get up to Liverpool or Manchester for a football game or shopping and return the same day.

I did a quote, for a couple taking their car over to Holyhead on a ferry(not a swift) on a FRIDAY and returning home to Dublin on a SUNDAY. The cost, incl a cabin was Irish Ferries EUR 336, Steana GBP 299.51 or EUR 442 (according to www.xe.com).
Prices will always differ on when you go, however I do think my example is more realistic.

Oh yes Im sure your example is more realistic:rolleyes:

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

think you may be mistaken, would love to have seen the details you input. Irish life still have the lion share of the market, while i admit they are not the cheapest in my experience, they are not far off usually.

I m mistaken then you admit they are not the cheapest :rolleyes:

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

if Greencore were so expensive, why was it that so few other sugar distributors did not break into the irish market? As regards the sugar business being safe in theri hands, you clearly haven't read about the effects of EU subsidy change on the rest of Europe. Greencore were not alone.

A private monopoly the government is great at creating them from greencore to Eircom.
And has sugar production completely ceased in all other countries.

Slice · 14-11-2006 05:42PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to tip the discussion towards cost of public over private transport (though it's obviously relevant to the thread).

I think the important question is whether or not we're getting value for money. Judging by IE's performance especially I don't think we are.

Question is what should be done about it? I know the privatisation issue has been done to death but what about the Customer Charter? I understand that this is used quite successfully in some cases in the UK. I don't think that there is enough emphasis on this politically and allot could be improved if somebody actually judged CIE subsidiaries against what they set out in their Customer Charter - which no one seems to be doing currently

CIE seek rise in bus and train fares

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