Multiway Omaha Hand, Live 1/1/5/8 Million

Marq · 13-02-2007 03:03PM #1

This hand took place in the Fitz last night. the game was very interesting. Myself, Dave whelan, Ciaran Igoe, John Casey and Robin Lacey all arrived at the same time (around 2.30) and put our names up for a 50 omaha game. there was no 50 omaha game running when we arrived and I didn't want to play 5 handed with people I quite like and are not total donks.

There was a 100 omaha game running, but dealers in the fitz aren't allowed to play that game for some inexplicable reason. Anyway, when the 100 Omaha got short of players they agreed to convert it to a 1/1 so that the rest of us could play. The game was playing pretty big because of a) a few 100 game regulars and b) everyone made it 5 on the blind, so the opening raise was usually 20.

I was doing my tonsils for the first hour, stuck about 800 after a cruel river against Casey and other various bollocks. I'm in for a grand, and the two players in the pot with me in this hand know this. The effective stacks in this hand are 700.

I'm the SB with 3d3s4s5d.

It's made 5 blind, 1 call,
dave whelan goes all in for 20 (means nothing, he's just lost a big pot),
chinese thomas calls all in for 20 (similarly means very little),
I call from the SB,
Collette Doherty reraises to 110 from the BB,
Ronan Ryan deliberates and calls from UTG.
1 fold, action back to me,
I call for another 90 leaving just under 600 behind and the other two players cover.

Comments on this call???

The flop (375) is Qd 4d 2c.

Me???

ianmc38 · 13-02-2007 03:11PM

Tough spot. I dont know how Collette plays, but you might only have 4 clean outs here - 3 Sixes and one ace(if she has AdAxXdX). I'd definitely check the flop and see what action takes place.

Oh and fold preflop!

5starpool · 13-02-2007 03:14PM

Apart from A23 it is as good as you could hope for from the flop realistically. I don't think a pot bet is the worst thing here, committing your stack to the hand. A 3/4/5/6/A are all improvers, even discounting the diamonds, but the fact that the side pot is 270 at this point is enough incentive to go at it, because if you check and Colette/Ronan stabs at the pot then you have no real FE left in the hand. You are not in great shape against a wide enough range of hands such as AAxx with diamonds or even KKxx/AQxx with diamonds, but by betting into it then you may chase out hands that include smaller flush draws that may take a stab at it such as JJT9 with diamonds.

A rambling post, and probably proves why I shouldn't play this game.

LuckyLloyd · 13-02-2007 03:21PM

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman · 13-02-2007 03:24PM

my father pointed out Collette to me on the street one day

he said "if you ever get in a poker game and she's at the table - leave"

good advice that

5starpool · 13-02-2007 03:26PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

- Ronan obviously checked the flop before you? What might that mean?

Ronan is last to act. He was UTG, Marq SB, Collete BB.

I also add to my own post that if I am in this situation and check then it is basically giving up as you are behind almost all bluff stabs at the pot and need to be against a total stab at it to have a good chance of outdrawing even. I doubt either of these players will fold to a check raise (which I very much doubt you did anyways).

Flipper · 13-02-2007 03:26PM

I think this is VERY marginal call pre-flop with these holdings. From my experiences with Collette, she's smart enough to know that narrowing the field and going heads up with the all-in guy with AAxx is a waste of time so I think she had a rundown hand more often than anything else. I also noticed that if she's losing for the night, her game changes completely. There is a strong possibility that you're dominated here and you've got yourself in a horrible situation. No way would I bet out anyway.... If she pots it, she'll almost always have a better flush draw than yours along with a bunch of high cards - or maybe AA. I suppose try to get to the turn for free and be prepared to lay down your pretty hand!

Marq · 13-02-2007 03:30PM

El Stuntman wrote:

my father pointed out Collette to me on the street one day
he said "if you ever get in a poker game and she's at the table - leave"
good advice that

That is pretty good advice. And she had position on me all night, but this was the only hand we got involved in together and I actually think that being out of position could have been to my advantage here if I had played the hand in a certain way.

Also I believe that I'm a better omaha player than pretty much anyone else in this game.

Marq · 13-02-2007 03:43PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

- If you are "doing your tonsils" (lol) will you generally gamble it up or nit it up? Will the other players know which one it usually is?

I was doing my tonsils earlier in the night. When I lost the big pot against Casey I rebought for 200 and immediately got it all in preflop and lost, which might have looked to others like I was on uber-monkey-tilt, but they didn't know that I had 89TJss. But I think my image is different now. I might have looked tilty loose earlier, but Collette and Ronan will have seen me play some pretty good omaha i the last hour to get back most of what I lost earlier

- What might the re - raise from Collette pre - flop mean?

At the time I thought that she wanted to build a sidepot with me, so I believe she has a good hand that plays well after the flop. It's possible that she is trying to isolate the all in players with bare aces (looking back on the hand I think that this is the most likely, or a combination of the two). I am pretty sure that she didn't expect Ronan to come into the hand. Although he made it 5 blind, he hasn't acted yet, and he cold calls a raise and a very large OOP reraise.

is it likely that Collette will bet out hard at the pot most of the time if you check it to her, irrespective of how the flop affects her hand? Does she lead for a standard percentage of the pot regularly on the flop? By this I mean, if she will auto bet after you check - is it most likely going to be in the 250 - 300 range?

If she bets she will bet the pot without question.
Collette is a very good player who probably has a lower cbet percentage in big raised pots than most. She is perfectly capable of checking behind on this flop if I check, but I reckon that she will bet if she has caught any of it. By "any of it" I mean any flush draw, two pair, a set, or bare aces with a low card that could make a straight (AA5x, AA3x).

Marq · 13-02-2007 03:47PM

Flipper wrote:

I think this is VERY marginal call pre-flop with these holdings.

Agreed. I considered folding. If I hadn't been closing out the action I definitely would have folded. Having said that, I have a very, very nice low hand, and I have to put both Collette and esp. Ronan on big cards/big pairs.
Folding preflop might still be optimal.

I also noticed that if she's losing for the night, her game changes completely.

I don't know whether Collette was winning or losing but I reckoned she was losing or close to even because she was still in the game. I would disagree that her game changes much when she's losing, and I've seen her play a lot.

Goodluck2me · 13-02-2007 03:58PM

id prefer to call the raise with 2345 rather than 3345. fold Preflop OOP against two very aggressive opponents. the thing abou this hand is though if the flop comes Ace instead of queen you have a very well hidden hand. as played i wuold check fold due to the fact that there is a higher probabliity your aces are dead, and therefore you could be drawing to as little as 4 outs. yuo have plenty FE just check fold, or if your lucky enough which i doubt you were reevaluate the turn.

Has collette seen you play big par hands before? would you play QQxx similarly preflop? does anyone ever check a big hand in these pots? i.e. likliehood itll be checked around...

careca · 13-02-2007 04:15PM

I would pot it. If as others said, you check and its potted by Colette, you have to let it go. I don't know her game that much but I would imagine, if checked to her, she could easily have a stab at it with the lone Ad (AxXX). Also I reckon she would fold an overpair with no other outs (obviously). The big problem could be UTG. Would he call with any flush draw on this board ?

biteme · 13-02-2007 04:16PM

Ok just wanted to correct a little bit of the info given. The player positions are wrong which changes the action a bit.

Marq is actually the BB and Collette is UTG. Collette has made it 5. Ronan from what I remember min raised and made it 10.
I then stuck it in on the button for 20. As did chinese Tomas from the SB. Marq calls and Collette raises. I'm pretty sure Collette has done this to isolate me and get a lot of dead money in the pot. She didn't realise Tomas was all in until the action got back to him. Ronan then calls the raise as does Marq.

I don't mind the call of 20 from Marq he most likely is gonna end up in a multiway pot. However I don't know if I like the call after Collette raises and Ronan calls. Yes your hand is a nice low hand. But you need to hit a flop pretty hard to be able to bet out or call any bet on most flops. And this hand isn't gonna hit too often. Or at least I don't think it hits hard enough often enough to justify a call with the stacks as they are.

As played I bet out on this flop. You get a lot of hands to fold that are ahead of you or have you in pretty bad shape. You can't check call and I really don't see you getting to see a free or cheap turn card. If you get through you pick up the side and have a decent chance of out drawing the allin's.

eoghan104 · 13-02-2007 04:40PM

Marq wrote:

Also I believe that I'm a better omaha player than pretty much anyone else in this game.

Should you not know what to do then...........

If it was me i fold preflop but saying that if i was " doing my tonsils " id be in like flynn because im a tilt monkey. As played i bet the pot here and commit to the hand at this stage. Its very hard to put collette on a hand here and you are looking OK against an average range. Its hard to know what Ronan is holding. Maybe its just me but has he become a looser player recently compared to before? He seemed to be playing quite a loose game the last time i played with him and has been alot more active in pots. The cold call OOP is strange though!

Very tricky spot but for me i bet the pot.

Marq · 13-02-2007 05:01PM

biteme wrote:

Ok just wanted to correct a little bit of the info given. The player positions are wrong which changes the action a bit.

Ah that makes a bit more sense. I knew i was first to speak but thomas being all in from the SB would make me first to speak from the BB as well. I don't think it changes things all that much. Ronan's wussy little minraise could mean nothing at all, that's the way the game was playing.

What happened next in this hand was extremely interesting, but I'm not going to post results just yet.

Samba · 13-02-2007 06:21PM

This is the flop we wanted bar A33...

Colette is a very good player, if you check she has the side pot to gain and may well bet even if she has not connected solidly to the flop if it was HU. and I might take a check raise line here. But we have Ronan to worry about, what is he reluctantly calling with? QQxx is a huge worry....

If you lead out you commit yourself, if you check you will undoubtedly be faced with a big decision...

I think i prefer checking here as you get to see how Collette and Ronan react, if they both go to war on this flop we can find a fold....

If we are faced with a bet from one player we can consider getting our stack in but with great uncertainty as ti what clean outs we have.

Very Tough Spot and the fact that you are down may influence your decision making here.

Marq · 13-02-2007 06:42PM

Samba wrote:

This is the flop we wanted bar A33...

Actually my original plan for the hand was for the flop to come down A33. But you have to deal with the changing situation.

Goodluck2me · 13-02-2007 06:44PM

Marq wrote:

Actually my original plan for the hand was for the flop to come down A33. But you have to deal with the changing situation.

were you on tilt or something? try move up levels.

Marq · 13-02-2007 06:44PM

Samba wrote:

Very Tough Spot and the fact that you are down may influence your decision making here.

Nope.

Marq · 13-02-2007 07:13PM

goodluck2me wrote:

try move up levels.

I would if they'd let me.

Samba · 13-02-2007 07:22PM

Marq wrote:

Actually my original plan for the hand was for the flop to come down A33. But you have to deal with the changing situation.

The dynamics of PLO eh?

DapperGent · 13-02-2007 09:00PM

I check. If Colette bets and Ronan calls I fold. If Colette bets and Ronan folds I ship. If Colette checks and Ronan bets I ship. If both check I pot almost all turns.

[edit]I think we're in a horrible spot and should have folded preflop. I don't think a check fold to any bet is terrible but I know I wouldn't be able to do it. Really tough spot. In some respects I'm unsure if it really matters what we do.[/edit]

cardshark202 · 13-02-2007 11:41PM

I like Dappergent's line(s).
I disagree about this being a nice low hand. Its a disgusting hand imo, apart from it being doublesuited. The small pair ruins your hand. Its a tilty call preflop. In fact if I was tilty enough to call this preflop I would probably be tilty enough to hope we got it in 3 ways here and having all my draws live lol.

Marq · 14-02-2007 08:49PM

I disagree about it being a tilty call preflop, but I'm in two minds about it being a good or bad call preflop. I think the first call for 20 is a little loose but not too bad because it's quite possible that we get to play a mid-sized pot with a hand that is most likely very different to anything anyone else is playing with. When Collette raised to 110 I think that I should have thought a little bit more about it. I'm happy to be involved in this pot, but I think that I should have realised before I put my money in that with the stack-sizes, if I get involved in this pot, we're playing for stacks.

This is one of my main problems with all forms of poker. Not thinking about the hand as a whole, and instead thinking about each street in isolation. I think that if I am to improve at poker this is the main thing that I need to change.
In this hand in particular, there are lots of flops that my hand is going to hit enough to get my stack in, but not enough to be in any way confident that I am going to win (even if I hit!). I could hit a low wrap, two pair, bottom set, low flush draw/straight draw (as it happened), or the bare nuts. So while I like my position, this was probably either a fold or a very marginal call preflop.

I think Dapper's line is interesting, but ultimately it means that we sacrafice our best way of winning this hand, and that's by getting the other two to fold. It's unlikely that they both check, and we have practically no folding equity if we c/r all in. We could be raising someone who bets with a bare overpair and a seven high flush draw, and they'll have to call, and we're fúcked.

I think that leading this flop for a full pot bet is the best way of playing it. we have no idea how many of our outs are clean, so let's throw caution to the wind and lead at this pretty much innocuous flop. If we get called we probably have lots of chances to win, if we don't we win the big sidepot anyway.

what was interesting about how this hand played out is that I deliberated for a couple of seconds and then said "pot" and the dealer said "570"!!!!
About 200 quid off what the pot actually was. I didn't realise that the pot was wrong at the time, and just put out my 570 and watched as colette folded instantly and ronan went into the tank. after about thirty seconds I started to think about how much the pot was and realised that it was way off, but at this point I didn't want to say anything (would people say anything to the dealer here?)

As it panned out this overbetting of the pot probably made very little difference to Ronan's decision making, but it allowed me to make a bet that got my whole tank in the middle, which probably gave me more Folding Equity.

Anyway he eventually folded bare kings and I won the side and missed all my outs for the main which was won by Chinese Thomas who hit a middler to beat Dave's top set!

Sick

fixer · 14-02-2007 09:12PM

Marq wrote:

I
what was interesting about how this hand played out is that I deliberated for a couple of seconds and then said "pot" and the dealer said "570"!!!!
About 200 quid off what the pot actually was. I didn't realise that the pot was wrong at the time, and just put out my 570 and watched as colette folded instantly and ronan went into the tank. after about thirty seconds I started to think about how much the pot was and realised that it was way off, but at this point I didn't want to say anything (would people say anything to the dealer here?)

Bob Ciaffone talks about this exact situation in his latest Card Player article.
http://cardplayer.com/author/article/all/4/8273

DapperGent · 14-02-2007 09:25PM

Marq wrote:

I think Dapper's line is interesting, but ultimately it means that we sacrafice our best way of winning this hand, and that's by getting the other two to fold.

Open potting is defiantley the best way to win the hand outright but is also the easiest way to put your entire stack in the middle drawing extremely thin, which is why I don't like it.

To be honest though I'm unsure if I consider it much worse than the lines I took above but I don't like it. With that I think there's a valid arguement for check folding here which goes some way to showing how poor I think our spot is.

I think we called preflop needing to hit the flop harder than this from where we are. Very interesting hand tbh.

5starpool · 15-02-2007 12:48AM

Whether it was the right way to play the hand or not I'm glad that my tuppence was close to the way you thought about it Marq. Makes me feel a little better about my game.

Marq · 15-02-2007 12:08PM

I think I've just received a compliment of sorts.

5starpool · 15-02-2007 12:09PM

Don't let it go to your head. It may be faint praise saying that I am fairly sure you are a better Omaha player than me.