Who you going to vote for?

Tim Robbins · 17-05-2007 04:44PM #1

Well I hope the Mods don't me putting this here, but it would be interesting to see if we think the same on or clash on this issue.
I'll try and explain my own thinking.
FF have a few good ministers (Martin, Brennan) but are conservative and too corrupt for my liking.
FG are too conservative.
Labour are too in with the Unions.
Green have some good ideas but the one in my constinuency seems scientifically illiterate.
Socialist Party, Jim Higgins is a brilliant speaker but I don't agree with his politics.
SF are just a no.
So I go for PD. Not saying they are perfect. The citizenship referendum was upsetting but looking at social / economic policy they seem to be the best.
Your thoughs?

PDN · 17-05-2007 05:21PM

I would just like to stress that the PDs are nothing to do with PDN.

I got 2 voting cards for 2 different addresses. Does this mean that I can vote twice?

After all, the old Sinn Fein election slogan for their supporters in the North was always "Vote early & vote often".

Dave! · 17-05-2007 06:08PM

Where's the Atari Jaguar option?

I'll most likely be voting.....

1. Labour
2. Fine Gael
3. Green
4. Sinn Féin

BTW my religious beliefs don't affect who I vote for. Mainly because I don't think any parties are gonna be pushing any kind of secular agendas.

finlma · 17-05-2007 07:39PM

I wouldn't go near the PDs with a fifty foot barge pole - they can keep their evil right wing agenda well away from me thank you.

All my votes will be going to anyone but FF, PD and SF.

toiletduck · 17-05-2007 09:49PM

Where's the option for the Christian Solidarity Party?

Dave! · 17-05-2007 09:51PM

lol

Tim Robbins · 17-05-2007 10:15PM

DaveMcG wrote:

lol

After watching the debates tonight and last night,. McDowell is easily the best debater. He was arguing against three people at the same time and wiping them. He floored Adams twice. I'd loved to see McDowell come in here and whoop up some of our debating standards.

frankscott · 18-05-2007 12:10AM

Hi, I got my polling card a few weeks ago, but can't find it anywhere now, dawter came home and 'tidied'!!

Can I vote without it? I live in a small town, know everybody, have loadsa id anyway, I don't want to be turned away!

MagnumForce · 18-05-2007 03:51AM

Im voting Green, It's like throwing your vote away, but more fun. Everyone should vote GReen and get them in power, then watch as they realise they've no idea what to do or how to run a country properly, then they'll dissolve the Dail and we'll get to vote again, and we'll all vote green again, and eventually the Greens would have to be like "Please, stop voting Green". It's my evil plan and i'm sticking to it.

I just wish we could get Senator David Norris as Taoiseach some how, or better yet, President! His inaugeration speech would be about gay sex and Ulysses. That man is a legend!

Tim Robbins · 18-05-2007 07:39AM

MagnumForce wrote:

Im voting Green, It's like throwing your vote away, but more fun. Everyone should vote GReen and get them in power, then watch as they realise they've no idea what to do or how to run a country properly, then they'll dissolve the Dail and we'll get to vote again, and we'll all vote green again, and eventually the Greens would have to be like "Please, stop voting Green". It's my evil plan and i'm sticking to it.

I just wish we could get Senator David Norris as Taoiseach some how, or better yet, President! His inaugeration speech would be about gay sex and Ulysses. That man is a legend!

I am surprised any atheist would vote SF. Nationalism is a bit like Religion. In most cases, you are indoctrinated at birth, told your Irish and act Irish.
Nationalism is also a mad made construct and yes there 100 of nations and they can't all be right

Isn't my analogy hillarious

Colm O'Gorman, the lad from the one in four campaign, is PD. He seems to be the only politician with a gripe against the Catholic Church.

http://www.colmogorman.ie/

I also liked that Cafe Bar license bill McDoweel tried to bring in. Seemed a good idea.

Also, I am quite surprised how many people are voting Green. I would have thought there would be a correlation between atheism and scientific understanding.
The Green's don't seem to be the most scientific literate, check this link out:

http://taint.org/2007/04/10/134819a.html

Dades · 18-05-2007 11:54AM

Why is no-one actively seeking the non-religious vote, godamnnit?

And for feck's sake don't vote for the Greens.

Tim Robbins · 18-05-2007 12:30PM

The Atheist wrote:

Why is no-one actively seeking the non-religious vote, godamnnit?

And for feck's sake don't vote for the Greens.

You're man O'Gorman (PD) seems to have set up an educate together school down there.
Maybe people should include links / info to anybody pushing a secular society.
http://www.colmogorman.ie/index-4.html

aidan24326 · 19-05-2007 10:56AM

The Atheist wrote:

Why is no-one actively seeking the non-religious vote, godamnnit?

Too afraid to scare off the traditional catholic vote, which is obviously much greater in number. The census figures showed <5% atheist/no religion, although the national figure was c.160,000 which is still alot of votes. Certainly any politician who camapigned for non-denominated schools would get my vote for a start. And the removal
of outdated religious references in the constitution also.

And for feck's sake don't vote for the Greens.

I agree. As MagnumForce said it would be interesting to see them in power, or see them try to actually put some of their policies into practise. They have some decent ideas (and some unworkable ones), but they would be bad news for the economy IMO.

As for Sinn Fein, I wouldn't vote for them if they were the only party.

Did anyone see the Late Late last night? They had Dunphy,Waters and some Fianna Fail trumpeter on. When the issue of Fianna Fail going into government with SF came up, the FF guy (some kind of party election honcho or something) said that Bertie "would rather take a chainsaw to his own legs than have Mary Lou McDonald in cabinet"

Good man Bertie. He has some taste anyway

I have voted for FF in the past, but am starting to think they've had long enough in government now. Maybe a stint in the opposition would do them good. Give Kenny and Rabbitte a go.

The figures point to a FF-Labour coalition though.

Scofflaw · 19-05-2007 11:05AM

frankscott wrote:

Hi, I got my polling card a few weeks ago, but can't find it anywhere now, dawter came home and 'tidied'!!

Can I vote without it? I live in a small town, know everybody, have loadsa id anyway, I don't want to be turned away!

Should be fine. I usually don't even get mine.

The Atheist wrote:

Why is no-one actively seeking the non-religious vote, godamnnit?

And for feck's sake don't vote for the Greens.

OK, I'll bite - why not?

cordially,
Scofflaw

JC 2K3 · 19-05-2007 11:26AM

toiletduck wrote:

Where's the option for the Christian Solidarity Party?

lol, the leader, Cathal Loftus was a sub teacher in my school 4 years ago.

Oh man, the fun we had in those classes. We're talking most incompetant teacher EVER here, not just someone who let the class get a bit rowdy and couldn't control it, but he was an absolute joke. We'd be throwing paper at him, walking around the classroom as we pleased, mocking him in every way possible. And his voice, it was SO funny, really droney kinda North Dublin accent.

He was an idiot. And keep in mind that at the time we had no idea of his hardcore Christian stance, hell I was still a Catholic, so his religion has no bearing on my judgement of him. He could be the most incompetent politician ever if elected....

Anyway, I hate the PDs. They're probably a more intelligent party than others, but they're policies are so right wing. They seem to want to create a souless capitalist conformist state. They know how to run an economy well, but they don't seem to care about real people.

I'll probably vote Greens. They won't be powerful enough to implement any of their extremist environment policies, but they'll be a welcome liberal influence in the governement.

PDN · 19-05-2007 12:06PM

Tim Robbins wrote:

You're man O'Gorman (PD) seems to have set up an educate together school down there.
Maybe people should include links / info to anybody pushing a secular society.
http://www.colmogorman.ie/index-4.html

My impression is that most of the posters on the A&A board would find the charter of the Educate Together Schools pretty offensive:

Recalling Article 26.3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

"Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children"

Parents are entitled to participate actively in decisions that affect the education of their children. In particular, they have the right to decide what kind of school reflects their conscience and lawful preference,

Parents should, to fit in with the ideals of Wicknight et al, sit their 4 year old sprogs down and explain the different kinds of schools that are available to them. They should say, "Well, this is the kind of school I would prefer you to go to, but lot's of people think differently. So, what kind of school do you want to go to?"

I think we should all boycott the United Nations and Educate Together for being so totalitarian, for trampling upon the rights of children, and for undermining the concept of secular society by suggesting that parents should enforce such choices upon their children.

rediguana · 19-05-2007 12:16PM

PDN wrote:

I got 2 voting cards for 2 different addresses. Does this mean that I can vote twice?

After all, the old Sinn Fein election slogan for their supporters in the North was always "Vote early & vote often".

Vote early and often? Haha. Those SF bastards are funny, if nothing else!

Give me your voting card - I'm registered in Cork-South-Central but I live in Blackrock, Dublin. I'd vote for the PD's if I could.

The Greens are too crazy (as well as being tediously boring), SF's policies (even the ones that are nothing to do with punishment beatings etc) are worrying. Labour / FG / FF are all kind of similar for me.

The PD's don't seem to showboat as much as everyone else.

rediguana · 19-05-2007 12:23PM

The Atheist wrote:

Why is no-one actively seeking the non-religious vote, godamnnit?

And for feck's sake don't vote for the Greens.

Atheists / Agnostics are probably statistically associated with non-voting behaviour, so why court them?

As for the Greens, I think it's a good thing that they have some representatives in the Dail, as long as there are <6 or so.

toiletduck · 19-05-2007 12:39PM

I shall be voting for the PDs. My atheist stance doesn't really affect who I vote for, except when FF come around and I'll ask them about Bertie comments...

Scofflaw · 19-05-2007 01:08PM

PDN wrote:

My impression is that most of the posters on the A&A board would find the charter of the Educate Together Schools pretty offensive:

I'm not exactly certain why you think so?

PDN wrote:

Parents should, to fit in with the ideals of Wicknight et al, sit their 4 year old sprogs down and explain the different kinds of schools that are available to them. They should say, "Well, this is the kind of school I would prefer you to go to, but lot's of people think differently. So, what kind of school do you want to go to?"

I think we should all boycott the United Nations and Educate Together for being so totalitarian, for trampling upon the rights of children, and for undermining the concept of secular society by suggesting that parents should enforce such choices upon their children.

Oh, I see - the hidden 'conclusion' being that there are so many religious schools because so many parents want their children to go to a religious school?

Not a historical accident at all, then....

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart · 19-05-2007 01:54PM

I’ll go into enormous detail that no-one will read, but will make me feel better for posting it. In short, religion plays no conscious part in my decision and I'm not looking for an actively secular party.

FF/PD don’t have magic economic policy. They just keep taxes low so that firms choose to set up here from abroad. I don’t want to go on for ages, but I know the reaction to this can be ‘well, isn’t that what you’re meant to do’. In short, no, as it leaves us in this Hobbit like existence of dependence on foreign markets without any real strategic appreciation of what that involves. The only new Irish company really flogging its ass around Europe is Ryanair, and its in a market that just can’t last.

Plus there’s an amount of imbecility in the FF/PD outlook that has to go, basically in the whole decentralisation/national spatial strategy/one-off housing space that will be familiar to people who participate in some of the discussions on the commuting/transport forum, although they have wider implications than just transport.

Fine Gael don’t provide an alternative and their commitment to rebuild the ludicrous Western Rail Corridor (don’t suggest this has to do with regional development until you’ve read some of the many threads on this topic on commuting/transport) is almost a symbol that they are indeed FF lite.

I’ve never understood the way some talk about SF as if we should all be chomping at the bit to vote for them once we’re convinced the guns are gone. With or without guns, they’ll always be last preference for me.

The Greens are inexperienced, but to an extent they are the only party attempting to address the agenda we need to move towards.

That leaves Labour almost by default, but at least they do vocalise some useful policies like removing the idiocy from the decentralisation programme and having some positive vision for Dublin – other parties still seem almost apologetic that the city might actually have as much right to exist as Claremorris.

We also have a reasonably sensible independent TD – Catherine Murphy – who left Labour in a spat over a promised Senate seat. I’ll likely give her no 1 as she hits the right notes on issues like class sizes and transport. Labour will be 2 and Green 3. Our local Green is inexperienced, but I’d prefer that to voting for imbecility. But, in terms of this poll, I’m Atari Jaguar.

Scofflaw · 19-05-2007 03:04PM

Schuhart wrote:

I’ll go into enormous detail that no-one will read, but will make me feel better for posting it. In short, religion plays no conscious part in my decision and I'm not looking for an actively secular party.

Ha! I read it all. Tend to agree.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN · 19-05-2007 03:59PM

Scofflaw wrote:

Oh, I see - the hidden 'conclusion' being that there are so many religious schools because so many parents want their children to go to a religious school?

Not a historical accident at all, then....

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, not at all. I believe the religious schools are indeed due to historical accident. I would much prefer that only strictly non-religious schools are funded by public money.

The 'hidden' conclusion is that I was roundly criticised on another thread for arguing that parents should have the right to choose what faith (or indeed no faith) in which to raise their child. The body of opinion was that children should be left to make up their own minds. So, to be consistent, it would seem to me that the same logic should apply to the kind of education that the child receives.

Dades · 19-05-2007 06:13PM

My personal feeling about Enda Kenny is that he would crack immediately under torture. In fact he wouldn't even get that far as he'd probably have made a deal with his captors at the expense of his fellow captives.

A difficult theory to prove, I know.

Scofflaw · 19-05-2007 07:19PM

PDN wrote:

No, not at all. I believe the religious schools are indeed due to historical accident. I would much prefer that only strictly non-religious schools are funded by public money.

Ah. I beg your pardon, then.

PDN wrote:

The 'hidden' conclusion is that I was roundly criticised on another thread for arguing that parents should have the right to choose what faith (or indeed no faith) in which to raise their child. The body of opinion was that children should be left to make up their own minds. So, to be consistent, it would seem to me that the same logic should apply to the kind of education that the child receives.

Indeed. Personally, I don't think religious education is bad for children. I'm not particularly bothered in the case of my own daughter - if she wants to become an atheist, she must do so not because I wish her to be one, but because she decides to be one.

After all, someone who has no knowledge of religion can hardly call themselves an atheist.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The White Rose · 19-05-2007 07:35PM

Originally Posted by frankscott
Hi, I got my polling card a few weeks ago, but can't find it anywhere now, dawter came home and 'tidied'!!

Can I vote without it? I live in a small town, know everybody, have loadsa id anyway, I don't want to be turned away!

Bring a passport or Drivers licence.

Once your on the register your ok to vote, card or no card

2Scoops · 19-05-2007 11:32PM

The Atheist wrote:

My personal feeling about Enda Kenny is that he would crack immediately under torture. In fact he wouldn't even get that far as he'd probably have made a deal with his captors at the expense of his fellow captives.

A difficult theory to prove, I know.

Unlike, say, Bertie?

Although I do like the idea of torturing politicians:D

pH · 20-05-2007 11:53AM

No party has a particularly secular agenda, but which party do folks reckon is the most Liberal? I really wish Ireland had a liberal party but failing that, which of the main parties would be considered most liberal on social issues?

I want to vote liberal damnit - and I'm thinking Green perhaps or Labour? any ideas?

The_Minister · 20-05-2007 01:20PM

Tim Robbins wrote:

So I go for PD. Not saying they are perfect.

This wouldn't have anything to do with them once trying to introduce a new Constitution without reference to God now, would it?:p

EDIT: For those of you who think that PDs are evil right-wingers, I suggest you read some PD policy. The PDs were set up to be a classic European Liberal party.

Dades · 20-05-2007 01:23PM

pH wrote:

I'm thinking Green perhaps or Labour? any ideas?

Anyone who admits to voting Green will receive a hemp sweater and one week ban.

Scofflaw · 20-05-2007 01:26PM

The Atheist wrote:

Anyone who admits to voting Green will receive a hemp sweater and one week ban.

Did I already ask why so strongly anti-Green?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades · 20-05-2007 01:58PM

Scofflaw wrote:

Did I already ask why so strongly anti-Green?

I try to be green in my own right without having it enforced on me, and frankly don't think the greens have a clue about what it takes to run the economy. That and they like building bus lanes over perfectly good roads.

TBH I'm mostly apolitical.

Tim Robbins · 20-05-2007 09:58PM

Schuhart wrote:

FF/PD don’t have magic economic policy. They just keep taxes low so that firms choose to set up here from abroad. I don’t want to go on for ages, but I know the reaction to this can be ‘well, isn’t that what you’re meant to do’. In short, no, as it leaves us in this Hobbit like existence of dependence on foreign markets without any real strategic appreciation of what that involves. The only new Irish company really flogging its ass around Europe is Ryanair, and its in a market that just can’t last.

PDs are also very pro competition.

That leaves Labour almost by default, but at least they do vocalise some useful policies like removing the idiocy from the decentralisation programme and having some positive vision for Dublin – other parties still seem almost apologetic that the city might actually have as much right to exist as Claremorris.

Labour are just full of spin and rhetoric, I see no good policies from them at all. Their campaign is full of nice wishes for a better life, but they fail to tell us how they are going to do it?
They are way too in with the Unions for my liking. I agree with the concept of the Union, but some of them have way too much say in this state and hold us to ransom.

JC 2K3 · 20-05-2007 10:05PM

PDs are too pro-privatisation. The fact is that some things have to be publicly owned. Their policies widen the gap between rich and poor.

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 08:45AM

JC 2K3 wrote:

PDs are too pro-privatisation. The fact is that some things have to be publicly owned. Their policies widen the gap between rich and poor.

Agree something have to publicly owned. anything publicly owned in Ireland has a Union holding us all to ransom, I don't consider that publicly owned.

PDs brought in the minimum wage and it is now the highest in Europe.
Your arguments seem to be based on perception not evidence.

PH wrote:

I want to vote liberal damnit - and I'm thinking Green perhaps or Labour? any ideas?

PD s are only party to have no party whip for matters of conscience. That's about as liberal as Irish politics goes. Some of their legislation is liberal, Cafe Bar license, wanting to bring non nationals into the Gardai etc.

In fairness, Labour and Green have so ok ideas here. Labour are too in with the Unions, and some of Greens are not even scientifically literate - not to mention economically literate.

I am quite surprised how this vote is going. Do people read manifestos or follow politics?
* FG are algined with Christian Democrats in Europe.
* Some of the Greens ain't scientifically literate. They are completly against incinerators and propose no alternative. Stately cleary in their manifesto.
* Labour are run by greedy Unions. Unions that are not interested in Paternal leave, or immigrant rights but shafting all of us for more money.
* SF???? If you had issues with a dogmatic corrupt instituition SF bring it to the next level.

PDN · 21-05-2007 09:04AM

The PDs have posters all over Dublin reading: "Left Wing Government - No Thanks!"

I find this amazing since the alternatives to government (FG & Labour) are pretty centralist, and the PDs have spent the last few years in government with Bertie Ahern - who claims to be a socialist.

They seem to be clear enough that they are a right wing party.

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 09:23AM

PDN wrote:

The PDs have posters all over Dublin reading: "Left Wing Government - No Thanks!"

I find this amazing since the alternatives to government (FG & Labour) are pretty centralist, and the PDs have spent the last few years in government with Bertie Ahern - who claims to be a socialist.

They seem to be clear enough that they are a right wing party.

The PDs are absolutely useless at spin. Some other examples:
"We are closer to Boston than Berlin".
"We need inequality to have economic growth".
These are all actually true, and all the main parties also believe them, but they just don't say them.
Back to your point. The Left / Right analysis began at the French Revolution and it was actually the other way around. The Left were right wing and and the Right were what we would consider Left wing. Nowadays, these terms are out of date. There has been a complete convergence on economic thinking, which just leads to a load of illogical arguments.
Those posters should just have said:
"SIPTU running economic policy, No thanks." i.e. a dig at the difference between them and Labour.
The problem with their poster is that Irish people like to think of themselves as Left wing when in fact they are anything but.
Using my own anecdotal evidence: all my friends consider themselves lefties. I am the only one who does any volunteer work, give regularly to charity and refuse to buy expensive stupid presents.
Politics for most people is all about perception, not logic unfortunately.

Dades · 21-05-2007 09:28AM

It all seems a bit moot anyhow - it's not as if you vote for one party, and they run the country. Whoever gets is likely to be a mish-mash of three parties who may or may not have anything in common.

da_deadman · 21-05-2007 09:39AM

The Atheist wrote:

My personal feeling about Enda Kenny is that he would crack immediately under torture. In fact he wouldn't even get that far as he'd probably have made a deal with his captors at the expense of his fellow captives.

Bertie, on the other hand, would turn on the charm and successfully persuade the 'torturers' that he is, in fact, one of them. He will proudly claim to be one of only 3 socialists in the Dail, he will launch into a tirade against "aggressive secularists", and failing all other possibilites might shed a tear and blame it on the difficult times he faced following his separation. He has won over this nation again and again, surely a few 'torturers' would be no problem.

As for the original question, I'll be voting 1,2,3 in order of Greens, Labour, Fine Gael. As a Dublin South East constituent I feel it my personal duty to try and help ensure Michael McDowell does not get re-elected.

The Atheist wrote:

Anyone who admits to voting Green will receive a hemp sweater and one week ban.

Can I get the sweater in size Medium? The Small ones are a little too tight around the chest...

Dades · 21-05-2007 11:13AM

You cannot approach an election as logically as if you were choosing a set of curtains. Its politics! Promises made are forgotten very quickly. Alliances change. I'm agnostic when it comes to voting - I just don't like the greens.

stevejazzx · 21-05-2007 11:17AM

I know I'll get into trouble for this but I've never voted. I was thinking about it the other day when some American/Irish publisher was on newstalk harping on about how voting is a 'precious gift' and that people who don't vote are wasters essentially.
I was trying to reason with myself as to why I find it so uninspiring.
I came up with these 3 answers:

1. Corruption is inevitable.
Political Parties are all corrupt in some or always becomes corrupted when in power. I can't think of any party in Europe that hasn't been rampant with scandal the last five years. Look at Tony Blairs 'new' labour'. Blair announced his retirement last week and seemed in his closing speech to the nation to be a man of integrity. Even if he is, how could he control the actions of ministers around him? Is Iraq his fault or the combination of poor/manipulated intelligence combined with the political motives of the US? I woudl go for the latter.

2. Economy. Dependant on global markets not government.
I am yet to be convinced that a government can simply outline an econmic policy and then inact it when in power and viola a supercharged economy. Irelands current economy is a result due mostly to outside investment. Now I imagine some government teams would make a better job of it than others but really who is it that keeps the money floating around a country? Large comapnies.

3. General Population knowledge of the inner workings of government and individual party policy.
Honestly your average guy on the street is more than likley just voting randomly without even knowing it becasue his understanding of party poilcy and general government is so small. What s the point in using your vote without being fully clued up on everything going on. What percentage of people will be fully clued up going ot the polls on wednesday? Is 15% too high? Either way we're looking at about 80% worth of just loyalty, randomness or ignorant voting.

I'd like to vote but large scale elections can be a lottery. There is no real control element and everything in the run up to a general elcetion is all spin. I'd like to see an alternative way of electing government based on merit of Individuals. It's just hard to devise such a method without ruling out the possibility of corruption. That it appears is something that we'll just have to live with it.
Btw Labour would get my vote if I was to vote.

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 11:21AM

The Atheist wrote:

You cannot approach an election as logically as if you were choosing a set of curtains. Its politics! Promises made are forgotten very quickly. Alliances change. I'm agnostic when it comes to voting - I just don't like the greens.

I think that's a cop out.
There's tonnes of evidence of legislation and policy in manifestos.
You can get most votes in the Dail online
Not happy about the US using Shannon, well you can see which politicians voted for it:
http://www.gov.ie/debates-03/20Mar/Sect1.htm#3

Evidence for some Green party member being scientifically illiterate:
http://taint.org/2007/04/10/134819a.html

Most of the PD's promises came through. Go back through the archives and see the beginning of minimum wage:
Introducing it:
http://www.entemp.ie/press/1999/220699.htm
Defending it:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0126/pay.html

Politics is not an exact science and there's is no "one true" answer but to say we can't use reason, evidence or it's like buying Curtains, I think is just a cop out
The reality is we atheists are not as logical as we think we are.

Stephen · 21-05-2007 11:45AM

I'm not loyal to any party, but I am voting Labour-FG-Green in that order. I want change! I'm sick of the corruption, waste and incompetence of the FF-PD government. Not to mention their squealing about us being a low tax economy as they pack on a few more stealth-taxes.

Scofflaw · 21-05-2007 11:47AM

Tim Robbins wrote:

PD s are only party to have no party whip for matters of conscience. That's about as liberal as Irish politics goes. Some of their legislation is liberal, Cafe Bar license, wanting to bring non nationals into the Gardai etc.

Speaking of perception not evidence - not once (in the 29th Dáil at least) has any member of the PDs voted against the Government vote - a feat managed by even Willie O'Dea!

You can check their voting records here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

da_deadman · 21-05-2007 11:53AM

Tim Robbins wrote:

I dearly wonder. In fact it would seem from the comments posted in this thread, very few atheists or posters here are approaching this election logically. There just seems to be loads of "argument by asertion" and pretty much no knowledge or interest of evidence. This is something we give out about when theists do it.

I then ask, what is more important to deal with logically, something that changes your life and those around you or some abstract meta physical question that you thought about differently when you are younger.
i.e. what's more important? dealing with the future or the past?

It seems like you were expecting every one here to be voting for the PD’s as you have decided that this is the most logical party to vote for. But for everyone there are a different set of issues that will affect them and they will therefore vote for the party they feel approaches these issues in the best manner.

With regards to the Michael McDowell comment I was being (slightly) facetious. There is clearly no “personal duty” to stop him being re-elected but I won’t vote for him based on my viewpoint of the politician. As an example, his leaflets that have come in my letterbox have stressed his opposition to the incinerator in Dublin Bay but I can’t reconcile that with the fact that the present government have proposed this incinerator.

Also, claims from the PD party to be the government watchdog (One Party Government? –No Thanks!) have, in my opinion, fallen down. The issue last year about the ‘loan’ for Bertie and then the saga recently when the PD’s held their meeting to decide whether to pull out of Government or not highlighted for me that they are not any sort of watchdog for Fianna Fail. (You may not think of these reasons as being the most logical but they were enough to sway me.)

I will vote for the Greens as I dearly hope they will have enough seats to be the ‘kingmakers’ and will be able to exert some influence in the next government. It’s pretty obvious that they will not be in a position to implement complete control over the country’s economy but I feel that they should have some influence on governmental policies. For example, I have heard them proposing to cut funding for new road development and increase development for public transport. I would fully support a reduced spend on roads and an increased spend on public transport – therefore, on this issue, I would gladly welcome their influence on the future government’s policies.

Other areas of their policies that appeal to me are animal welfare (from what I’ve seen, it is the Green Party that has the most detailed policies for this) and the promotion of cycling (including ‘safe cycling’ programs for school children).

The Atheist wrote:

Everyone knows hemp sweaters come in 'One Size Fits All'!

I guess that means that my sweater must have shrunk or else I’ve gotten bigger…

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 12:24PM

da_deadman wrote:

It seems like you were expecting every one here to be voting for the PD’s as you have decided that this is the most logical party to vote for. But for everyone there are a different set of issues that will affect them and they will therefore vote for the party they feel approaches these issues in the best manner.

No, I expect people who to look at evidence. I will happily change my mind if a godo argument can be made. I am shocked that very few (if none) have been made from what I think are an intelligent bunch of posters.

With regards to the Michael McDowell comment I was being (slightly) facetious. There is clearly no “personal duty” to stop him being re-elected but I won’t vote for him based on my viewpoint of the politician. As an example, his leaflets that have come in my letterbox have stressed his opposition to the incinerator in Dublin Bay but I can’t reconcile that with the fact that the present government have proposed this incinerator.

Fair enough, good point. Where do you think incinerators should go?
Do you know that the Greens are categorically against all incinerators and propose no alternative?

Also, claims from the PD party to be the government watchdog (One Party Government? –No Thanks!) have, in my opinion, fallen down. The issue last year about the ‘loan’ for Bertie and then the saga recently when the PD’s held their meeting to decide whether to pull out of Government or not highlighted for me that they are not any sort of watchdog for Fianna Fail. (You may not think of these reasons as being the most logical but they were enough to sway me.)

No I would agree with you there. Good point.

I will vote for the Greens as I dearly hope they will have enough seats to be the ‘kingmakers’ and will be able to exert some influence in the next government.

I would vote Green, if there was a good Green candidate. In my area it's McKenna the lunatic. No way I am voting for someone who thinks that about the MMR vacine.

Other areas of their policies that appeal to me are animal welfare (from what I’ve seen, it is the Green Party that has the most detailed policies for this) and the promotion of cycling (including ‘safe cycling’ programs for school children).

Good man, I would be with you on both of these. I regularly donate to ISPCA and I am member of DCC which is basically run by Green heads. I cycle every day and would be totally in favour of cycling as is McDowell.
Source his website:
http://www.michaelmcdowell.ie/
Section: Policies.

Good post, enjoyed it.
Excellant link Scofflaw, enjoyed that.

Dades · 21-05-2007 12:45PM

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think that's a cop out.

It would be a cop out if I didn't vote, which isn't the case. Just because you have satisfied yourself the PDs are great by looking "logically", doesn't mean other people haven't done the same thing the other way. Who's right?

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 12:48PM

Stephen wrote:

Not to mention their squealing about us being a low tax economy as they pack on a few more stealth-taxes.

Here's a good example of bad logic.
How do you define if a tax is stealth or not?
And so what if it is, surely you are committing this logical fallacy here:http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/logic/logic2.html

As for the low tax economy, why not compare the tax you pay to the tax you would pay if you were living anywhere else in Europe? This can be done mathematically and can be hard to argue with. Then you are argument has substance.

Or why not be more specific? Pick a tax and argue that?
I think the biggest problem in the taxation system is the benefits to rich investors, section 23 and the U turn on the Bacon report best examples.
I blame the Minister for Finance, McCreevy for both of them.

As for other taxes, I think specific taxes, or consumer pay taxes are a brilliant idea. They are harder to dodge and make people think about where the money is going (or what it should be going) towards:
examples:
Plastic bag tax, Car tax, Bin Tax, TV License tax.

Go back to the 80s and self employed people paid no tax at all, now they have to pay their share. And if you don't like em, get a smaller car, or don't watch tv or cut down on your rubbish.

Tim Robbins · 21-05-2007 12:52PM

The Atheist wrote:

It would be a cop out if I didn't vote, which isn't the case. Just because you have satisfied yourself the PDs are great by looking "logically", doesn't mean other people haven't done the same thing the other way. Who's right?

PDs aren't great, I would say looking at the evidence and trying to derive arguments that they are the best option, Greens also not too bad.

However, I can't look at all evidence and would have thought the counter arguments here would have been evidence based. I will happily change my mind if I there is a good evidence based logical argument. I am being consistent here, I will do the same with God.
Some of the posts here seem to have no logic at all, and just seemed to be full or arguments by assertion based on dogma.
I think it's hillarious we give out to the Christians for things we clearly do ourselves.

Schuhart · 21-05-2007 12:54PM

Tim Robbins wrote:

PDs are also very pro competition.

Competition comes to Ireland as an EU import. It has very little to do with our Competition Authority doing dinky little reports, a lot to do with Brussels obliging EU Member States to throw open their markets and hardly anything to do with the PDs any more than any other party that doesn’t question our EU membership.

Tim Robbins wrote:

Labour are just full of spin and rhetoric, I see no good policies from them at all. Their campaign is full of nice wishes for a better life, but they fail to tell us how they are going to do it?

I’m not sure this holds water beyond the slogan. On national finances, all the parties bar SF are much of a muchness. Where Labour score somewhat in my books is in some of what they say on some topics. For the sake of argument, all parties mouth platitudes about the ludicrous decentralisation programme. Labour have undertaken not to mutilate the capital by moving policy areas to the sticks. That undertaking saves money, so I don’t see what the problem is.

Tim Robbins wrote:

I agree with the concept of the Union, but some of them have way too much say in this state and hold us to ransom.

This comment reminded me of a bit in Woody Allen’s Bananas when Miss America testifies sweetly that ‘There’s nothing wrong with difference, so long as you’re not too different because then you’re a subversive mother’.

Unions have a degree of access to power in Ireland that unions in other countries can only dream about. I take it you’ve heard of the whole partnership concept. If you’re looking for someone to stand up to unions, it’s hardly the current government.

joxerdaly · 21-05-2007 01:04PM

would like to see a change of goverment, but still want FF to be included. Would not trust any other party in charge of finance at the moment. Brian Cowan knows what he's doing and there is no one else in any other party with the experance to handle that port-folio. Lets face it, if finance is messed up there will be no money for all the extra beds, Gardai and classrooms that enda Kenny seems to be passing around like sweets.

Who you going to vote for?

Who you voting for? 40 votes

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