Greens only appeal to city dwellers

johnnyskeleton · 25-05-2007 09:12PM #1

From looking (briefly) at the election results so far, it appears that while the greens have a few seats in Dublin constituencies and good support in Galway and Cork, they don't seem to do well in more rural areas.

Does anyone know what kind of policies they offer in towns and rural areas or why they are unsuccessful there?

jon1981 · 25-05-2007 09:14PM

they are only a one policy party in one geographical area anyway... its common sense that country people would suffer more so if the Green party where to hit the motorist with tax levis as the public transports is crap in rural parts of the country

DJDC · 25-05-2007 09:20PM

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

fricatus · 25-05-2007 10:06PM

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

You don't half go in for stereotypes, do you?

Wishbone Ash · 25-05-2007 10:08PM

Trevor Sargent's constituency (Dublin North) is largely rural (i.e. it consists of most of North County Dublin).

Victor · 25-05-2007 10:24PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Trevor Sargent's constituency (Dublin North) is largely rural (i.e. it consists of most of North County Dublin).

Yes a rural area where 97% of the population live in towns from 6,000-35,000.

Wishbone Ash · 25-05-2007 10:27PM

Victor wrote:

Yes a rural area where 97% of the population live in towns from 6,000-35,000.

Sshh Victor! Geographically, it's rural.

Diamondmaker · 25-05-2007 10:27PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Trevor Sargent's constituency (Dublin North) is largely rural (i.e. it consists of most of North County Dublin).

Eh at a stretch ill give it to you that Geographically there is a lot of "rural" land but obviously its the pop that votes and not the geography!
With the population being mainly urban, your point does not make sense.

Also throw in Airport issues, Port Tunnel, Metro North, Ikea, commuting from N County to CC, M50 etc etc there are many issues associated with North Dublin that the greens have lobbied for or against, that just dont carry any weight ( if any at all ) to the rural voter....... Rural in the correct sense of the word I mean.

Wow the others just landed too....I mean c'mon Rural??!!??
Should a pit the winky in earlier!;)

nesf · 25-05-2007 10:28PM

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

It's painfully obvious that you don't know a whole lot about rural communities beyond a few bland stereotypes.

Diamondmaker · 25-05-2007 10:32PM

nesf wrote:

It's painfully obvious that you don't know a whole lot about rural communities beyond a few bland stereotypes.

I would not go as far as what was quoted but perhaps you have another theory? Green issues DO effect the rural less and more in equal measures that would cost green policie votes.

As said a tax on mileage rather than what we have currently...hit the rural 4 car family for ex....

McSpud · 25-05-2007 10:34PM

I think the transport policies of the Greens stopped in the burbs.

nesf · 25-05-2007 10:41PM

Diamondmaker wrote:

I would not go as far as what was quoted but perhaps you have another theory? Green issues DO effect the rural less and more in equal measures that would cost green policies issue.

As said a tax on mileage rather than what we have currently...hit the rural 4 car family for ex....

I agree completely with you. I think to a large extent the Green Manifesto doesn't deal with the issues that dominate politics in rural areas, or a lot of urban areas for that matter. That and rural constituencies can be small, the Greens aren't (by and large) a big polling party. They also don't have a local presence. For instance in Cork North West they ran a candidate who wasn't even from the constituency. They still picked up over 1,000 votes which was very good for them.

jrey1981 · 25-05-2007 11:22PM

My local green candidate Deirdre de Burca opposed reopening a local train station which doesnt really make sense.

She said Iarnrod Eireann couldnt do it and that was it.

Sir Oxman · 25-05-2007 11:23PM

Carlow/Kilkenny looks likely to elect Mary White of the Greens

Villain · 25-05-2007 11:24PM

Yep Mary White will be elected now by the looks of things and that would very much be a rural vote.

Sir Oxman · 25-05-2007 11:28PM

irish1 wrote:

Yep Mary White will be elected now by the looks of things and that would very much be a rural vote.

And as the heads on RTE have just said, that likely win in Carlow/KK makes the Greens real players with 7 seats and FF with theoretical 77/78...

Villain · 25-05-2007 11:30PM

Yep I just predicted on the main sticky thread that it will be a FF and Greens government

eoghan.geraghty · 25-05-2007 11:34PM

jrey1981 wrote:

My local green candidate Deirdre de Burca opposed reopening a local train station which doesnt really make sense.

She said Iarnrod Eireann couldnt do it and that was it.

I'm surprised at that, their strategy is to take money from roads into public transport.
The fact that theirs no proper rail transport to Donegal is a joke, let alone Cork to Limerick to Galway to Westport to Sligo.

DJDC · 25-05-2007 11:35PM

I was saying some of my comments in jest,it is impossible to generalise the majority of this countries population(is the rural section still a majority?).However I still hold out that rural communties are on average less pro "green" than urban areas.

It seems like White has a good chance in Carlow.Excellent news.

Gobán Saor · 25-05-2007 11:39PM

I'd suggest that the Greens are a middle class niche party, not just a city party Strong in Dublin South, Dublin South East and Dun Laoighaire, the archetypal middle class constituencies.

Wishbone Ash · 25-05-2007 11:41PM

Gob&#225 wrote: »

I'd suggest that the Greens are a middle class niche party, not just a city party Strong in Dublin South, Dublin South East and Dun Laoighaire, the archetypal middle class constituencies.

What about Dublin North - their leaders area!

DJDC · 25-05-2007 11:47PM

I'd suggest that the Greens are a middle class niche party, not just a city party Strong in Dublin South, Dublin South East and Dun Laoighaire, the archetypal middle class constituencies.

Middle Class when their policies are essentially leftist of centre, and they gain most of their transfers from working class areas?Maybe you are not facing up to the fact that there is a significant component of the irish electorate outside dublin who vote along strong party lines,putting small parties out of the equation.

Also niche?why?

Victor · 25-05-2007 11:57PM

DJDC wrote:

Middle Class when their policies are essentially leftist of centre, and they gain most of their transfers from working class areas?

Just like any other party, the greens attract a mix of votes - middle class environmental, protest, some republican, anyone but FF, left wing.

nesf · 25-05-2007 11:57PM

DJDC wrote:

Also niche?why?

Green politics are only entering the mainstream in this country and people are still looking towards the major parties for these policies at the moment. Only time will show if a party based around green politics can become a major entity in this country or whether they will go the way of the PDs with their policies being absorbed by the mainstream and the party being pushed out to the fringes.

I think people confuse the success of the Green Party with the success of green policies in this country though (it's similar with the PDs).

DJDC · 26-05-2007 12:02AM

Only time will show if a party based around green politics can become a major entity in this country or whether they will go the way of the PDs with their policies being absorbed by the mainstream and the party being pushed out to the fringes

Good point.FF/FG dont really have a political ideology and are essentially populist vote gatherers.The greens will have to make sure they dont get cannibalised in the next decade.They are really going to have to make sure the public think, they are the only ones who can be trusted when it comes to environmental issues.

McSpud · 26-05-2007 12:04AM

Gob&#225 wrote: »

I'd suggest that the Greens are a middle class niche party, not just a city party Strong in Dublin South, Dublin South East and Dun Laoighaire, the archetypal middle class constituencies.

That is where they seem to get seats but they seem to see themselves as more left wing party.

IMO the Greens should move into the centre to challenge the existing big 3 & sell themselves are clean politics free from corporate or unions influence.

karen3212 · 26-05-2007 12:09AM

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

I don't agree with this, I visit relatives in the country all the time, and they conserve and recycle far more than my friends in the city. I'd say it might be the calibre of the particular green candidates around the country.

They surely scrope the bottom of the barrell for the candidate they chose where my aunt lives.

Gobán Saor · 26-05-2007 12:10AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

What about Dublin North - their leaders area!

True, but there's still that concentration in the three ultimate South Dublin middle class constituencies.

Anyway, its far more obvious than that - just drive arounf the city and check out where the concentration of Green posters are. Quite near the PD ones.;)

And very few in working class areas.

Gael · 26-05-2007 12:18AM

This thread is interesting, since the Greens still seem in position to win their first seat in a primarily rural constituency, via Mary White. And lest you doubt it, you should know that Mary lives up a mountain, not in a town.

Gobán Saor · 26-05-2007 12:22AM

DJDC wrote:

Middle Class when their policies are essentially leftist of centre, and they gain most of their transfers from working class areas?
Also niche?why?

Well, yes their policies are well to the left of Labour but there is a disconnect between the party's policies and a lot (not all) of their supporters. Voting Green can be a lifestyle choice: hey-look-at-me - I'm-concerned-about-saving-the-planet. Very popular with the folks who buy organic bread at €4 a loaf in the farmers market.

Disclaimer: not all Greens fit this stereotype, but a lot do.:D

Victor · 26-05-2007 12:35AM

Gob&#225 wrote: »

And very few in working class areas.

Thievin' little gurriers.

nesf · 26-05-2007 12:49AM

Gael wrote:

This thread is interesting, since the Greens still seem in position to win their first seat in a primarily rural constituency, via Mary White. And lest you doubt it, you should know that Mary lives up a mountain, not in a town.

Pfft, Carlow is still within the Pale.

Villain · 26-05-2007 12:52AM

LOL now now nesf just because the Dubs are trying to take us over doesn't make us any less rural

Gael · 26-05-2007 10:22AM

Mary White, deputy leader of the Green Party has been elected in Carlow-Kilkenny. First Green TD in a primarily rural constitutuency.

nesf · 26-05-2007 12:15PM

Gael wrote:

Mary White, deputy leader of the Green Party has been elected in Carlow-Kilkenny. First Green TD in a primarily rural constitutuency.

That's a big achievement for the party though I'm sorry to see Boyle go in Cork. I think they lost a potentially good minister there.

johnnyskeleton · 26-05-2007 12:29PM

I suppose it does make sense that people in rural areas already have a pretty good environment and so don't really want to vote for it.

What I wonder about though is why they don't step up their campaign in a rural setting. A few examples would be public transport from villages to town centres (for that matter, busses from small towns to big towns/cities other than Dublin would be good too), grants for greener farming methods, improved recycling campeigns, investment in windfarms, etc. It is also a green party policy to favour small to medium business over larger multinational corporations, and I think this would have good local appeal in towns where, for example, the main source of employment was a factory that has now closed down.

I think they have the potential to make a killing in rural areas, but I'm not sure that they're even bothering.

lucernarian · 26-05-2007 12:41PM

I actually never saw Dan Boyle in my life before, until his defeat speech on RTE yesterday. He didn't have the usual political charisma and charm but he did seem competent, and the green party member in the RTÉ studio seemed genuinely sorry to see his defeat, on a personal as well as political level.

Mary White did well to be elected. It's mainly a success for the people of Carlow, who have managed to retain their FF TD, and also bring in a local Green.

The greens can have more electoral success in the future if they campaign for the local issues properly. They already have a larger-than-life national presence.

galactus · 26-05-2007 03:41PM

McSpud wrote:

I think the transport policies of the Greens stopped in the burbs.

Have you ever heard of a choo-choo train?

irish_bob · 27-05-2007 10:00PM

a few of the posts in here have been accused of pandering to stereotype

perhaps but every stereotype has an element of truth
its true to a degree that many middle class types who pay top dollar for organic food do so because its a trendy thing to do , its also been suggested that if the middle class vote green , how come the greens are left wing
surely you know that thier are elements within the middle class , champange socilists who like to seperate themselves from something as vulgar as capatilism and the green vote also works as a form of middle class liberal guit therapy , i read once that the upper middle calls in dublin vote pd but the upper middle class with a guilty conscience vote green

as regards the person who asked why the greens are not so popular in rural ireland
the reason is very simple , agriculture , while the numbers of full time farmers in ireland are diminishing , agriculture is still by far the biggest economic conributor in rural ireland , and this is expressed not just inside the farm gate
their is a whole servicie economy in rural ireland all centred around farming

the green partys policys were they to be implemented full would bankrupt irish agriculture , i will not elaborate on thiat statment as i doubt that many in here are familiar with terms like live export or nitrates directive

i myself was born on a farm and still know many farmers , the green party are to farmers what kryptonite was to superman

Gael · 28-05-2007 10:25AM

irish_bob wrote:

the green partys policys were they to be implemented full would bankrupt irish agriculture , i will not elaborate on thiat statment as i doubt that many in here are familiar with terms like live export or nitrates directive

The Green Party don't actually plan to ban live exports, as commonly perceived:

Live Exports
The Green Party does not promote or encourage live exports of animals. However, it does understand that if there were no live exports at present, the meat factories would have a monopoly on the meat trade in Ireland and the prices paid to the farmer would drop considerably. Until a viable alternative can be offered, the Green Party will seek to reduce the dominance of the large meat factories and supermarkets and lobby for the humane transport of animals at home and abroad while seeking to phase out live exports over time. The Party will promote local abattoirs and value-added meat processing to minimise live animal transportation.

jmayo · 28-05-2007 02:47PM

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

Actually most of the rubbish dumped by the roadside in the country would probably come from the townies and not the locals.
There are reasons why some farmers see An Tasice as interfeering outsiders.
Some of the objections to houses on parents' farm come from people that do not live in area but visit few times a year.
Planning and development in this country is a joke anyway. And yes some of the Southfork type houses should never have been built.

Coming from a farming background the perception is that the greens will not care about farming and will affectively ban everything so that some townie can come visit (on his environmentally friendly transport) the countryside on his Sunday afternoon off.
Also there is a perception that GP supporters believe farmers can all make a living growing organic friendly produce.
These are the perceptions that are out there.

Farmers rightly or wrongly feel they are so many more controls and constraints in place now e.g nitrates directives, ban on burning, etc and that if GP get in there will be even more.

Allied to this some of their prenouncements on motoring and increaed taxes for motorists (who may be driving jeeps or 4x4s for valid reasons) is seen as being more detrimental to country dwellers.

GG66 · 28-05-2007 03:34PM

I also live in a rural area and some of the perceptions that jmayo notes are commonplace.

The Green party are against one off housing in the countryside and this is something which doesn't go down well with a lot of rural dwellers..

The other reason they didn't do that well is that this was their first time to have candidates in every constituency. A lot of their candidates are not known

nesf · 28-05-2007 03:41PM

GG66 wrote:

The other reason they didn't do that well is that this was their first time to have candidates in every constituency. A lot of their candidates are not known

I'd go even further and say that few of their candidates were known. I know they were going for the whole nationwide thing but really I think they wasted money running candidates in areas where they had no chance of being elected. 3 seat rural constituencies spring to mind as an obvious place not to run a Green candidate.

Ruen · 28-05-2007 08:27PM

johnnyskeleton wrote:

From looking (briefly) at the election results so far, it appears that while the greens have a few seats in Dublin constituencies and good support in Galway and Cork, they don't seem to do well in more rural areas.

Does anyone know what kind of policies they offer in towns and rural areas or why they are unsuccessful there?

They're unsuccessful because the fat fcuking farmers of Ireland are too happy being paid to sit on their arses all day to risk voting for anyone but FF for fear they stop earning 80% of their money from state subsidies as opposed to real work.:)

mikemac · 28-05-2007 09:13PM

Ruen wrote:

They're unsuccessful because the fat fcuking farmers of Ireland are too happy being paid to sit on their arses all day to risk voting for anyone but FF for fear they stop earning 80% of their money from state subsidies as opposed to real work.:)

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers). Your average long term unemployed, work shy person wouldn't last a week doing heavy manual work on a farm.

Yes, I know most townies aren't like this but likewise most farmers are very far from being rich.

Excellent post above jmayo.

Farmers aren't totally against the Greens as they have some good ideas. Some were doing the Rural Environment Protection Scheme(REPS) long before this election.
But farmers won't stand to be dictated to by someone with little knowledge of the countryside. I know this is a thread about the Greens but Labours Hill Walking Bill is a classic example

Victor · 28-05-2007 10:38PM

jmayo wrote:

There are reasons why some farmers see An Tasice as interfeering outsiders. Some of the objections to houses on parents' farm come from people that do not live in area but visit few times a year.

Either the objection is valid or not. Should we throw away the book if nobody local makes an observation / objection.

Ruen · 28-05-2007 11:14PM

micmclo wrote:

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers). Your average long term unemployed, work shy person wouldn't last a week doing heavy manual work on a farm.

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

nesf · 29-05-2007 12:16AM

Ruen wrote:

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

I don't think he meant to imply that there was anything wrong with someone getting a council home. I read it as pointing out that there were freeloaders on both sides and that they were a minority on bother sides.

Ruen · 29-05-2007 01:16AM

micmclo wrote:

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers).

Well by that, I think he means they're in the majority.

mikemac · 29-05-2007 07:07AM

nesf wrote:

I don't think he meant to imply that there was anything wrong with someone getting a council home. I read it as pointing out that there were freeloaders on both sides and that they were a minority on bother sides.

Yes, that was exactly what I was saying. Every sector of society has freeloaders. This goes from top businessmen to people struggling to make ends meet.

Absolutly nothing wrong in getting a council house.
I don't want to drag this offthread, it's just that Ruen is making some generalizations about farmers

Back on topic about the Greens.......

jmayo · 29-05-2007 08:29AM

Ruen wrote:

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

Ruen you have the typical common misconception that all farmers are rich, sit around and wait for a subsidy. Yes some farmers are rich but a hell of a lot are not. You may pay high price for meat but the farmer gets very little of it, most of it end up in the pocket of some Larry Goodman or other.

If they were so rich why are you finding almost all of the sons and daughters of farmers now working away from the farm and often farming as a parttime hobby, a very expensive one at that.
Also check out what the emmigration figures for farmers families were during the last century.

And your case about getting payments for not using land is due to that fact that EU dictates that crops can not be grown on set aside land, because they would be over supply, etc.
How would you like it if you have an asset and you are not allowed to use because that is in affect what is happening.
Just like we have milk quotas to prevent scenario where there is another butter mountain and milk lake.
This is in a world where half of the land is unarable desert and people are starving, but that is another debate.

Victor wrote:

Either the objection is valid or not. Should we throw away the book if nobody local makes an observation / objection.

I will openly state that I think some of the southfork style houses built in countryside are a disgrace and should never have been allowed.
Also the way string like bungalow development that has been allowed, for instance on the coast road out of Galway, has ruin beautiful areas and has turned country roads into streets.

But what gets up the noses of farmers is that somebody who does not live in area, visits couple of times a year, objects to planning of family member building house next door to parents.

Yes there should be controls so that somebody does not build in scenic area but then how do you square that with the case where a load of holiday homes are allowed be built so that a bunch of city folk can spend a few weekends down in the country with us culchies.
Look at Achill as prime example of what a fcuked up mess has been created with holiday homes.

Take a look at An Tasice and you will find they are nearly bankrupt and loosing members. They have embarked on cases and causes that even it's own members appear to be questioning.

Sorry just realised gone off thread but I felt above points needing answering.

And maybe above views from non-farmers illustrate why Greens not getting votes in rural areas.

You would need GP candidates to be from a farming background for a start to have credibility.
If you trott out a "townie" that illustrates any of the above views you are finished, might as well blow your deposit down the pub.
Another sticky subject alluded to earlier is the right to ramble. That is a another contentious point and God help the candidtae that says I believe hillwalkers have a right to go anywhere they like.

Greens only appeal to city dwellers

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