Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 26-05-2007 03:47PM #1

Had this conversation with friends recently, pretty surprised that they want it kept mandatory.

They didn't provide any logical reasoning - just that we should do it because it's our native language, that it would die if this was changed. I don't understand this because it's not alive aside from in gaeltacht regions & how does 2 years of study make any odds to whether it is or not.

What do people think?

Enemy Of Fate · 26-05-2007 03:54PM

Absolutely not.It should be abolished right NOW, and should never be forced upon people ever again.......Thankfully though I don't have to do Irish!Hurrah!!

Captain Smiggy · 26-05-2007 05:02PM

I think we should use the system used in england and northern Ireland. Nothing is mandatory for the A-levels. They also have a far wider choice, upper and lower 6th being more like college.....but sure f*ck it, while we're stuck here, i say change it, yeah. That way, everybody wins. People who want to do it will do better because the teacher'll only have people who want to do it, and people who hate it'll have something else to do. A lot of the problem is the curriculum itself. I'd do it even if it was optional, but it really is just a throwback at this stage. If it's mandatory because of the whole "culture" thing, then why isn't irish history?

Tar.Aldarion · 26-05-2007 05:04PM

Should be abolished imo.

Haven't a Clue · 26-05-2007 05:07PM

It shouldn't be abolished, no, but the way it's taught needs to be changed dramatically. Students should somehow be given a love for the language so they're willing to learn it. Instead, after 13/14 of learning Irish, students are coming out nothing near to being fluent.

Tar.Aldarion · 26-05-2007 05:09PM

I got a c1 in honours with barely a word of Irish. Nobody liked it, nobody speaks it(pretty much) Better off learning a language you can use instead of learning one for nostalgia.

Haven't a Clue · 26-05-2007 05:12PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I got a c1 in honours with barely a word of Irish. Nobody liked it, nobody speaks it(pretty much) Better off learning a language you can use instead of learning one for nostalgia.

There's money in being **** hot at Irish now though with Irish being an official EU language. If you become and interpreter or a translator, you'll make a nice bit of money for yourself.

Captain Smiggy · 26-05-2007 05:14PM

I learn it because i love it, but i do also use it. It's not just gaeltacht areas. I recently found out my neighbour has fluent irish, and whenever hes down now we often have great wee chats. I disagree with the whole "just for nostalgia" thing....I'm not gonna start with a load of "800 years, our language, brits, yada yada yada" Bollocks, but i honestly do it for the love of it. It is a very interesting language, structurally, and i think thats reason enough to study it. If you were to write all subjects off for "nostalgia" where would history be?

ImDave · 26-05-2007 05:21PM

I think it should be abolished. All the same, they give marks away like peanuts. I am fairly bad at Irish to say the least. I done my LC last year, and I dont think my oral went to well, wrote about ten lines for the essay nd I didnt have a clue when it came to the stories/poems, but I still got an Ordinary B3! Thats not to say its a great result, but it shows that due to the debate on this topic, their is most likely pressure to keep the average grade up.

JC 2K3 · 26-05-2007 05:23PM

I don't see why it shouldn't be mandatory.

It's no more pointless than English and to a certain extent Maths.

They could make nothing mandatory, but I don't personally agree with allowing students to specialise at such an early age. It's a good thing to have all students doing three common subjects.

Basically it means that, in theory, every student should come out of 6th year reasonably proficient in 2 languages and mathematics.

The situation of Irish at LC level isn't great right now as people generally go into 5th year with nowhere near the standard required, which is something which needs to be remedied.

They're currently working to improve the teaching methods at primary level and I doubt it will be long before the syllabus of JC Irish is changed(there's talk of making the optional JC oral Irish exam worth 40% instead of 20% and perhaps making it mandatory, something which I agree with).

As for the arguments that say it shouldn't be mandatory and people should be given the option of learning another language instead, well it's not going to happen. It's our native language and it's more popular than it's been in a long time. If it could survive being mandatory through the 70s and 80s when Irish was absolutely despised by a much larger amount of people than today, then it's not going to be made optional at a time when Irish people are actually proud of their culture and WANT to learn Irish.

I doubt there'll be many more complaints about it 10 years from now.

If you think it's in decline and no one speaks it you're wrong.

Corruptedmorals · 26-05-2007 05:23PM

I love it! Managed to get really fluent at the gaeltacht. I think it should be kept mandatory, it's a sad state of affairs when we don't learn our own language. Trying for an A2..woo.

tolosenc · 26-05-2007 05:32PM

Should it be mandatory? Yes. End of.

It wasn't me! · 26-05-2007 05:39PM

No, it should not be mandatory. Why should it?

Enemy Of Fate · 26-05-2007 05:47PM

obl wrote:

Should it be mandatory? Yes. End of.

You'll notice the only people who EVER say Irish should be mandatory are people who like/are good at it.No-one who does poorly/hates Irish ever says it should be mandatory, but there are a few intelligent people (although they are few and far between), who like/are good at Irish, but who realise it shouldn't be mandatory.But they are a rare bunch.

timmywex · 26-05-2007 05:48PM

let it be optional,, no one uses it and it fecks up so many leaving certs in terms of points, let them do something else, japenese would be more useful

eZe^ · 26-05-2007 05:54PM

Instead of making it optional I think they should make an effort at teaching us the language properly.

JC 2K3 · 26-05-2007 06:04PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

You'll notice the only people who EVER say Irish should be mandatory are people who like/are good at it.No-one who does poorly/hates Irish ever says it should be mandatory, but there are a few intelligent people (although they are few and far between), who like/are good at Irish, but who realise it shouldn't be mandatory.But they are a rare bunch.

You'll also notice that there's a group of people who depise Irish for absolutely no logical reason.

Anyway, like I said before. If Irish becomes optional, then so should English and Maths. However, that would be a step in the wrong direction IMO.

Enemy Of Fate · 26-05-2007 06:07PM

JC 2K3 wrote:

You'll also notice that there's a group of people who depise Irish for absolutely no logical reason.

Anyway, like I said before. If Irish becomes optional, then so should English and Maths. However, that would be a step in the wrong direction IMO.

No logical reason huh?Right.......Because its not like if you fail Irish in the leaving cert you're completely ****ed when it comes to getting into a university....Yeah thats not it at all.

Lucas10101 · 26-05-2007 06:13PM

It shouldn't be made compulsory because it's part and parcel of Irelands culture, that alone should make it compulsory whether people like it or not.

Personally, I hate Irish but still think this way.

Fobia · 26-05-2007 06:14PM

I think it should be optional. As should maths and english, in response to JC2k3's comments. At the end of the day, regardless of reasons for being for/against a subject being mandatory, if a student does not like a subject, they're never going to become in any way decent at it, and will use it very little (if at all) after leaving school.

Also, students disliking a subject but being forced to do it means classes are full of people who hate the subject, and thus bring down the level (especially in schools lacking a streaming system) of the class as a whole. Of course, you'll get lots of people dropping down to pass, but wouldn't it be better they did a different subject they could handle the honours level at? Even if you just want to "Pass the pass irish", most schools will still force you to attend one class a day, this adds up to many hours, which could be devotted to a new subject, or even a subject the student already takes.

I think students should do Irish, English and maths and another language, but I don't think they should have to.

Lucas10101 · 26-05-2007 06:16PM

I think that's a very narrow view.

If people don't like a subject it should be made optional? Maybe the structure could be altered to make the subject a little bit more engaging for students, but for the purposes of culture, keep it.

colm-ccfc84 · 26-05-2007 06:27PM

It should certainly not be mandatory. If people want to chose it that is their perogative, but forcing such a 'subject' upon everyone is grotesque.

JC 2K3 · 26-05-2007 06:28PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

No logical reason huh?Right.......Because its not like if you fail Irish in the leaving cert you're completely ****ed when it comes to getting into a university....Yeah thats not it at all.

Trinity, for one, don't require Irish(or English, for that matter, AFAIK).

In any case, if you can't pass OL Irish, you're probably not smart enough or too lazy to be going into University in the first place.

Fobia wrote:

I think it should be optional. As should maths and english, in response to JC2k3's comments. At the end of the day, regardless of reasons for being for/against a subject being mandatory, if a student does not like a subject, they're never going to become in any way decent at it, and will use it very little (if at all) after leaving school.

Well then it becomes a matter of revising primary school and JC teaching methods.

And no one uses ANY subject they do at LC level after the LC unless they go on to study it further, and even then, waht they learned at LC level is rarely much help.

Fobia wrote:

Also, students disliking a subject but being forced to do it means classes are full of people who hate the subject, and thus bring down the level (especially in schools lacking a streaming system) of the class as a whole. Of course, you'll get lots of people dropping down to pass, but wouldn't it be better they did a different subject they could handle the honours level at? Even if you just want to "Pass the pass irish", most schools will still force you to attend one class a day, this adds up to many hours, which could be devotted to a new subject, or even a subject the student already takes.

It's a valid point, but again, such a problem could be avoided with better teaching methods at primary and JC level.

I mean, in many cases, students never hear spoken Irish from first year until a few weeks before the oral in 6th year.

tolosenc · 26-05-2007 06:32PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

No logical reason huh?Right.......Because its not like if you fail Irish in the leaving cert you're completely ****ed when it comes to getting into a university....Yeah thats not it at all.

If you can't meet the expected level of education, then you can't move on. Pretty simple. What was that proverb about bad workmen and their tools?

And Colm, I REALLY don't thin that people are arguing whether or not it is a subject. That's been pretty much established. The inverted commas should go on the verb in that sentence.

cson · 26-05-2007 06:32PM

The way the paper is as it stands is not conducive to attracting students to study at higher level. Paper 2 is all cold hard rote learning as is the essay on paper 1. Thats almost 50% of the exam that needs to be learned off by heart by most people.

The new changes will do it good, 40% for the oral is a great idea.

As for it being a dying language...... have you noticed the latest fashion is to send young Sorcha or Fionn to a gaelscoil?

tolosenc · 26-05-2007 06:40PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

You'll notice the only people who EVER say Irish should be mandatory are people who like/are good at it.No-one who does poorly/hates Irish ever says it should be mandatory, but there are a few intelligent people (although they are few and far between), who like/are good at Irish, but who realise it shouldn't be mandatory.But they are a rare bunch.

I reject those points.

I know a guy who will be lucky to scrape an Ordinary C3 in a few weeks time, and he's mad for the language.
I like Irish and speak it fluently. I, along with most other similar people, think it is the most deserving of mandatory status of the 3 core subjects.

Fobia · 26-05-2007 06:41PM

Lucas10101 wrote:

I think that's a very narrow view.

If people don't like a subject it should be made optional? Maybe the structure could be altered to make the subject a little bit more engaging for students, but for the purposes of culture, keep it.

For the purposes of culture I think it's a little irrelevent - whether irish is growing or in decline I really don't think it's because irish is mandatory.

JC2k3 wrote:

Trinity, for one, don't require Irish(or English, for that matter, AFAIK).

In any case, if you can't pass OL Irish, you're probably not smart enough or too lazy to be going into University in the first place.

To the first point, yes, but Trinity isn't exactly the only college people want to go to..
To the second, well, some people really are that dire I'm afraid. Luckily I'm not one of them, but I do know someone who's very mathematical (whizzing through engineering now) but only managed to scrape a D3 in ordinary level irish.

JC2K3 wrote:

It's a valid point, but again, such a problem could be avoided with better teaching methods at primary and JC level.

Certainly, but that's not the arguement here? I mean I'm sure more people would do higher level maths if it were taught better also, but while it's a good point, I don't think it's a good enough point to justify a subject being mandetory. But that's just my opinion.

Nephew · 26-05-2007 06:56PM

English is completely necessary so every school leaver can read and write to a proficient level for economic & social reasons, regardless of what the constitution says we are an English speaking nation.

Nearly four years after leaving school I have never had to use a word of Irish, on the other hand I have been to Germany a few times and I wish the German I learned was of a more advanced level. I had to do Irish, English, French & German for my JC, I had to drop either French of German for the LC. Why couldn't I drop Irish? Its such an irrelevant language which is of no benefit after school for 99.9% of people. For the LC, I had 6 classes of Irish a week compared to 4 for German, it doesn't make any sense.

Enemy Of Fate · 26-05-2007 07:17PM

JC 2K3 wrote:

In any case, if you can't pass OL Irish, you're probably not smart enough or too lazy to be going into University in the first place.

But see thats just stupid.What if someone doesn't feel like wasting time learning Irish, and instead spends the time studying other subjects.So the LC comes around they do quite well (400+) but fail pass Irish.So you're saying that just because that student can't pass Irish, they're not smart enough toget into college?See its just mad.

obl wrote:

If you can't meet the expected level of education, then you can't move on. Pretty simple. What was that proverb about bad workmen and their tools?

But see the whole point is that it SHOULDN'T be part of the expected level of education.I mean its not something important like being able to add, its just a ****ing useless language that only 2% of the population uses on a regular basis.**** sake learning Farsi would be more beneficial than learning Irish.At least its still used.The only language subject available in the LC thats less useful than Irish is Latin......and even then Irish doesn't beat it by a large margin.

genericgoon · 26-05-2007 07:33PM

Yes to keep it at LC but no to ppl losing out in college choice if they might happen to suck at irish or wanted to specialise in subjects they might actually use on their course. Personally, my irish isnt great but its passable at HL but there are ppl in my class who really fear failing OL but who could get enough points from other subjects but because FL isnt universally accepted have to risk OL. Some people just suck at irish.It is very different form any other common language tbh.

JC 2K3 · 26-05-2007 08:09PM

Fobia wrote:

To the first point, yes, but Trinity isn't exactly the only college people want to go to..
To the second, well, some people really are that dire I'm afraid. Luckily I'm not one of them, but I do know someone who's very mathematical (whizzing through engineering now) but only managed to scrape a D3 in ordinary level irish.

The LC should force a student to learn things their weak at I think though. Contributes to a broad education and all that.

Nephew wrote:

English is completely necessary so every school leaver can read and write to a proficient level for economic & social reasons, regardless of what the constitution says we are an English speaking nation.

There's a difference between English and LC English.

You learn enough English by 6th class to be able to function just fine in the real world.

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

But see thats just stupid.What if someone doesn't feel like wasting time learning Irish, and instead spends the time studying other subjects.So the LC comes around they do quite well (400+) but fail pass Irish.So you're saying that just because that student can't pass Irish, they're not smart enough toget into college?See its just mad.

But see the whole point is that it SHOULDN'T be part of the expected level of education.I mean its not something important like being able to add, its just a ****ing useless language that only 2% of the population uses on a regular basis.**** sake learning Farsi would be more beneficial than learning Irish.At least its still used.The only language subject available in the LC thats less useful than Irish is Latin......and even then Irish doesn't beat it by a large margin.

Well seeing as they have to pass it, it's not a waste of time learning it....

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

But see the whole point is that it SHOULDN'T be part of the expected level of education.I mean its not something important like being able to add, its just a ****ing useless language that only 2% of the population uses on a regular basis.**** sake learning Farsi would be more beneficial than learning Irish.At least its still used.The only language subject available in the LC thats less useful than Irish is Latin......and even then Irish doesn't beat it by a large margin.

No LC subject is really useful though.

You unlearn most of the simplified LC Physics and Chemistry should you pursue them in college, you don't need to be very proficient in Europeon Languages to do well in them at LC level(well to get a B at least, but let's face it, A1 students are fluent in foreign languages learned to be fluent abroad or in a Euro Languages course, not in class or by studying), unless you're doing a degree in them, Languages, as well as "rote learning subjects" like History are pointless too.

In fact, the LC is mainly "learning stuff for the sake of learning stuff".

Why not just have Irish mandatory for the sake of promoting our native language? It's only "forced" upon us until we're 18.

Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

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