Right of access to a public road

mikemac · 01-07-2007 3:14pm #1

I live within the garda cordon for Croke Park.
So if walk past the cordon, a ticket checker will stop you and if you drive a garda will stop you.

Resident passes are available from the local garda station.

Imagine you are a resident and you have no ID and no way of proving you lived with the cordon. For example you could have left wallet in another car or you were out jogging for instance.

Can a garda/ticket checker refuse access to a public roadway and force you to wait for possibly a few hours until the matches are over?
It's not false imprisionment but I think it's something along those lines.
Does a ticket checker who is just a private citizen even have the right to block access to a public road to pedestrians?

Jo King · 01-07-2007 7:20pm

I would see a resident of the area within the cordon having two choices.
1. Get a pass and make sure to keep it on them.
2. Go to the High Court and seek declarations that the actions of the ticket checkers are unlawful and that there is no basis for the ticket checkers stopping anybody and that only a member of the Garda should check tickets. If upheld on this point, damages for the dreadful inconvenience should be sought.
If a High Court action is initiated an injunction could be sought restraining the ticket checkers from preventing people without tickets from passing them.
An undertaking would need to be given that the GAA would be compensated for the extra expense incurred should the action be unsuccessful. Proof that funds are available to pay the compensation would also have to be shown. If the action is unsuccessful legal costs may be awarded against the complainant.

johnnyskeleton · 01-07-2007 9:46pm

In addition to their more specific powers, Gardai have general powers to keep the peace. At such large events, because there is so much scope for anarchy breaking out, the Gardai are unlikely to be faulted for diverting pedestrians away from the area. It's similar to when they direct traffic after an accident, although I think they sometimes get specific authorisation from the county council to close off certain areas for special events.

If you were a resident who had for whatever reason forgotten your pass at home you could explain this to the garda, perhaps show them your ID as proof of address, and if all else fails and the garda still doesn't believe you, you could ask him to accompany you to your door.

As for civilian ticket checkers, I don't think they would have the authority to stop you (unless perhaps under permit from the council), but a bit of common sense is required, and standing on your rights in these circumstances might cause a fairly simple misunderstanding to turn into a bit of a problem. Bear in mind that sorting out your rights would take a significant amount of time, and while you might at the end of the day feel that you won a great victory over mindless bureaucracy, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Are they that strict about it though? I would have thought that if you seem genuine (i.e. not a tout or likely to hop the fence) they would let you through.

Victor · 01-07-2007 9:55pm

AFAIK there is legislation for the Garda to close roads on public safety grounds, separate to the legislation used by councils to close roads (Roads Acts).

The ticket checkers are merely doing paperwork for the Garda. It is the Garda that stops you, not the ticket checkers.

Our man in Havana · 01-07-2007 11:43pm

Jo King wrote:

An undertaking would need to be given that the GAA would be compensated for the extra expense incurred should the action be unsuccessful. Proof that funds are available to pay the compensation would also have to be shown. If the action is unsuccessful legal costs may be awarded against the complainant.

Would that not be a way to stop a ordinary citizen (who is highly unlikely to have substantial funds) from bringing an action against any big organisation?

Victor · 02-07-2007 3:43am

Bond-007 wrote:

Would that not be a way to stop a ordinary citizen (who is highly unlikely to have substantial funds) from bringing an action against any big organisation?

Yes. Yes it is.

They sell it on "prevent the abuse of process" grounds.

templetonpeck · 02-07-2007 11:11am

This thread is great!! My parents house is surrounded by the dublin marathon route and every year I'm asked where I'm going at the top of the access road. I don't mind a Garda stopping me and asking where I'm going, but I really detest the 'Route Organisers', who are normal Joe Bloggs stopping me and asking me where I'm going. :mad:

dermot_sheehan · 02-07-2007 11:46am

Section 21 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0021.html

(1) If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons (in this Part referred to as the "event"), he may authorise any member of the Garda Síochána to erect or cause to be erected a barrier or a series of barriers on any road, street, lane, alley or other means of access to such a place in a position not more than one mile therefrom for the purpose of regulating the access of persons or vehicles thereto.

(2) Where a barrier has been erected in accordance with subsection (1), a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform may by oral or manual direction or by the exhibition of any notice or sign, or any combination thereof—

( a ) divert persons generally or particularly and whether in or on vehicles or on foot to another means of access to the event, including a means of access to that event on foot only, or

( b ) where possession of a ticket is required for entrance to the event, prohibit a person whether in or on vehicles or on foot from crossing or passing the barrier towards the event where the person has no such ticket, or

( c ) indicate that to proceed beyond the barrier while in possession of any intoxicating liquor, disposable drinks container or offensive article will render such liquor, container or article liable to confiscation.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit a person from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—

( a ) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

( b ) going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place.

(4) A person who—

( a ) fails to obey a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under subsection (2) for the purposes of paragraph ( a ) or (b) thereof, or

( b ) fails to comply with the terms of a notice or sign exhibited under subsection (2) for the purposes of paragraph ( a ) or (b) thereof,

shall be guilty of an offence.

Our man in Havana · 02-07-2007 12:19pm

Say if you said you simply visiting a friend living by the event, they would have to allow you to pass?

seamus · 02-07-2007 12:40pm

Bond-007 wrote:

Say if you said you simply visiting a friend living by the event, they would have to allow you to pass?

Not according to that legislation. It seems that the Gardai are afforded some discretion - they can let you by "if it appears" that you otherwise intend to act in a lawful manner.

So the Gardai can through let a fine upstanding citizen such as yourself Bond, but can stop a baseball hatted, tracksuit wearing scumbag, even if you both claim to be visiting friends.

But if they wish, they can deny you access if they're not satisfied that you're supposed to be there.

templetonpeck · 02-07-2007 2:25pm

Bond-007 wrote:

Say if you said you simply visiting a friend living by the event, they would have to allow you to pass?

No, they couldn't stop you passing. When I go to my folks, they ask me my business and I say for access.

TBH, usually i avoid my folks during the marathon, to save myself the headache, but sometimes I forget

Gobán Saor · 02-07-2007 5:55pm

I have to say I find the concept of civilian ticket checkers quite obnoxious. I have no problem whatsoever with Gardai checking for tickets as they are entitled to do under the Public Order Act. I am a regular attender at Croke Park and I have always found the Gardai on Croker duty to be polite, courteous, good-humoured and helpful. Not to mention that they are a properly professionally trained disciplined force and accountable for their interactions with the public in a myriad of ways. This accountability is central to the "social contract" between police and citizenry and cannot be devolved to private security men.

A civilian ticket-checker has NO authority to stop anyone on a public thoroughfare or to request production of a ticket. Ignore them. Walk on by. If they physically restrain you it's assault and trespass to the person. And possibly false imprisonment as well.

But show your ticket to a Garda if asked. They are public employees there for your protection. The other lot are merely for the convenience of the event organisers.

templetonpeck · 03-07-2007 8:39am

Gob&#225 wrote: »

I have to say I find the concept of civilian ticket checkers quite obnoxious. I have no problem whatsoever with Gardai checking for tickets as they are entitled to do under the Public Order Act. I am a regular attender at Croke Park and I have always found the Gardai on Croker duty to be polite, courteous, good-humoured and helpful. Not to mention that they are a properly professionally trained disciplined force and accountable for their interactions with the public in a myriad of ways. This accountability is central to the "social contract" between police and citizenry and cannot be devolved to private security men.

A civilian ticket-checker has NO authority to stop anyone on a public thoroughfare or to request production of a ticket. Ignore them. Walk on by. If they physically restrain you it's assault and trespass to the person. And possibly false imprisonment as well.

But show your ticket to a Garda if asked. They are public employees there for your protection. The other lot are merely for the convenience of the event organisers.

I one hundred per cent agree with you. I would only respond to a garda not a civilian ticket checker

Right of access to a public road

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