Ring Of Honor thread

estebancambias · 14-07-2007 6:52pm #1

Do i have the power to make my own threads? Well if I am I think this should be done. The reason I make the thread is because the question I wanted to ask does not merit a full topic.

I think it's a good idea but if not, what are you going to do.

My question is, will ROH ever have a show in Ireland? I think they should as they would easily get 2,000 people in my opinion.

Also do you prefer ROH back in 2005 or now? I loved the roster back then because it had people like Gibson, Kendrick and London, Punk, Joe etc.

I still love it, but I felt more in touch with the roster back then.

estebancambias · 14-07-2007 7:00pm

Wait I take back London I doubt he was in ROH at the time but I'm sure Spanky was.

the flananator · 14-07-2007 7:10pm

Personally, I feel while the matches are still of a high standard, ROH has lost its identity.

As for an Irish show; 2000 people? I doubt it.

estebancambias · 14-07-2007 7:12pm

Really? I thought it would be a shoe in. What arena would they hold it in?

Fozzy · 14-07-2007 7:49pm

I wouldn't imagine they'd get 2000 in Ireland, although I'm sure there'd be plenty of British fans who'd go too. Anything's possible if they advertised it enough though and if Irish promotions started doing better business then ROH could possibly do a show here in the distant future. I'm sure they'd do Canada first

I loved ROH when Joe was on top and Punk was entertaining every single time he appeared on camera, there were some great matches and feuds back then. I'm lovin it at the moment too though, they're developing more characters and the angles are better now I think. I can't wait til Jimmy Jacob returns!

The Sparrow · 14-07-2007 8:26pm

Fozzy wrote:

I wouldn't imagine they'd get 2000 in Ireland, although I'm sure there'd be plenty of British fans who'd go too. Anything's possible if they advertised it enough though and if Irish promotions started doing better business then ROH could possibly do a show here in the distant future. I'm sure they'd do Canada first

I loved ROH when Joe was on top and Punk was entertaining every single time he appeared on camera, there were some great matches and feuds back then. I'm lovin it at the moment too though, they're developing more characters and the angles are better now I think. I can't wait til Jimmy Jacob returns!

Just out of curiousity Fozzy, where do you watch ROH? DO you get tapes or watch it online or on TWC? I`d like to give it a watch, but everytime I see it its a one off show and I`d prefer to watch it in some sort of order so I could follow the angles.

Or do you get your "cousin" to send it over?

estebancambias · 14-07-2007 9:02pm

The Wrestling channel is weird because it looks like sometimes ROH follows no particular pattern and they just throw up what ever show they want.

Yeah Jimmy Jacob's return will be crazy. I think after Nigel wins the title he will.
James Gibson needs to return.

The Sparrow · 14-07-2007 9:38pm

estebancambias wrote:

The Wrestling channel is weird because it looks like sometimes ROH follows no particular pattern and they just throw up what ever show they want.

Yeah that really puts me off watching ROH on TWC. For me at least, wrestling is all about storylines and justifications. Why does Wrestler A wanna fight Wrestler B. As great as a one-off match could be, I want to know the background and the storyline leading up to it. It would annoy me watching random shows when it should be episodic.

Fozzy · 14-07-2007 9:55pm

woooo232 wrote:

Just out of curiousity Fozzy, where do you watch ROH? DO you get tapes or watch it online or on TWC? I`d like to give it a watch, but everytime I see it its a one off show and I`d prefer to watch it in some sort of order so I could follow the angles.

Or do you get your "cousin" to send it over?

Mainly a mix of dvds and my "cousin". Some of my mates buy dvds now and again too. I don't think I've ever watched ROH on TWC

I've pretty much kept up to date with ROH ever since they started out, there's still plenty of shows I haven't seen, but I can understand what you mean with the random shows. I'd suggest giving their first ppv a watch, there's links in the video thread. That show is more of an introduction to ROH than anything else, it's not the best show they've done but the commentators do a good job of explaining who the guys are and why they're fighting

estebancambias · 14-07-2007 10:06pm

I think I would give Respect is Earned an 8/10. I think it got alot of fans for ROH. Once ROH goes mainstream we will need another promotion to fill the void.

HorseRadish · 14-07-2007 11:07pm

Why the hell not I say. I'd be first in line for sure

Mr.Nice Guy · 14-07-2007 11:59pm

Ring of Honor - the showcase of the overrated.

If it's not the wrestlers trying to kill themselves with some insane move it's the fans trying to steal the show with their 'support'.

It is in my eyes nothing but a poor man's ECW (Heyman's one that is).

Before the ROH brigade weigh in with their usual "Have you ever watched ROH?" question. Answer: yes and I think it's pants.

estebancambias · 15-07-2007 12:12am

That is outragous. ROH is not 'pants'. They get a passionate crowd, what is the problem? A crowd in my opinion goes along way to making a wrestling match. Well actually ROH have made profit unlike the original ECW, they must be doing something right. Perhaps the matches are too long for your attention span? That is not an insult, I'm just trying to figure out how you could hate ROH.

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-07-2007 12:24am

My favourite match of the year so far is Cena vs Michaels from London which went near an hour so my attention span is fine thank you very much. If anything it seems many ROH fans suffer some sort of attention disorder since the wrestlers seem to pull out whacky moves every minute and drag out the finish to a match for ETERNITY.

What's the problem with the crowd? Passion is one thing but being wedged up your own arse is another. Those fans love themselves more than the actual talent.

And on ECW, it's laughable of you to compare it to ROH when ECW at least went national unlike ROH living off of its DVD sales. Go Kobashi!

Fozzy · 15-07-2007 12:42am

There was a time when I thought ECW was the best thing to ever happen wrestling, but I enjoy ROH so much more. What's the big deal with going national anyway? TNA's done it and they still make less profit than ROH. There's absolutely nothing wrong with living off dvd sales if they're as good as they are for ROH

All too often in WWE you get nonsensical angles and multiple breaks in continuity, along with guys who don't deserve to be where they are. None of that happens in ROH which is one of the many reasons I enjoy it. I honestly don't know if I could watch WWE if it weren't for promotions like ROH, no matter how boring a WWE show ends up I know I can rely on ROH to pick me back up and restore some faith in me

I don't think ROH is perfect, but I get a lot more entertainment out of their shows than I do with any other promotion. The fans don't bother me in the slightest, they're enjoying the show as much as I am usually so I can't begrudge them their opportunity to make some noise

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-07-2007 1:37am

Going national is relevant when someone seeks to draw a comaprison with a company that not only went national but by doing so grabbed pro wrestling by the balls and shook up the industry.

I believe the negatives far outweigh the positives when it comes to ROH.

estebancambias · 15-07-2007 11:00am

''favourite match of the year so far is Cena vs Michaels '''

Co-sign. Cena demonstrating that he can be carried to an amazing match, however my problem was, why did they make this better than their WM match?

Double C · 15-07-2007 1:30pm

ROH fans do tend to over do it a little at times, starting chants for the sake of making noise, most notably in the UK for the Briscoe vs Briscoe match. "Your both awesome" has to be the worst chant ever. That being said, the atmosphere for the PPV was tremendous (great move by Gabe to encourage the fans not to use the word Awesome in any chants). That kind of atmosphere is bound to have a positive effect on the match, as shown with Marufuji vs Romero, that match was way better than it should have been.

I agree on the point of wrestlers killing themselves. They overdo the high risk moves, especially Mark Briscoe, even though I hold Doi responsible for the botched SSP at All Star Extravaganza III. The other one I can think of is Jack Evans vs Ricky Reyes from 2005, Evans landed right on the back of his head, how he got up after it I'll never know.

estebancambias wrote:

Also do you prefer ROH back in 2005 or now? I loved the roster back then because it had people like Gibson, Kendrick and London, Punk, Joe etc.

For me, 2005 stands out, storyline wise. The Summer of Punk is my favourite ROH story ever. I highly recommend all the shows from Death Before Dishonor III through to Punk the Final Chapter. That's 6 shows. Money well spent.
That year also had the Embassy vs Generation Next feud which was great, mainly for Shelley and Nana.

2006 was better match-wise with Danielson's run. Overrated or not, he's one hell of a wrestler. Also, the CZW feud was class. 2007 is shaping up nicely too.

Mr. Nice Guy wrote:

Before the ROH brigade weigh in with their usual "Have you ever watched ROH?" question. Answer: yes and I think it's pants.

That's a bit hard to take from a Cena fan. If it's not your cup of tea, it's not your cup of tea, fair enough. Pants though? Strange phrase to use.

Vince135792003 · 16-07-2007 8:18am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

And on ECW, it's laughable of you to compare it to ROH when ECW at least went national unlike ROH living off of its DVD sales. Go Kobashi!

Ring of Honor make money. Not many wrestling groups do that. It doesn't matter how you do it and the I like the fact that they know were there at. They should be praised for the business model they have.

They're not running huge buildings like some groups we know this year and losing a ton of money. They are working within their size and thats a good thing.

gimmick · 16-07-2007 8:54am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Go Kobashi!

What does that have to do with an ROH discussion? :rolleyes:

Anyway, ROH was better in 2005. It had better star power then, with Gibson, Punk, Spanky, Joe, Styles, Daniels, Shelley etc. Storylinewise it was pretty hot also. That is not to say that 2007 isn't great. Sure it has lost its way somewhat due to TNA using their power to make wrestlers exclusive to their company, as is their right I guess, but there are still many many positives, namely The Briscoes, Nigel McGuiness, Morishima, we had the culmination of the Jacobs Whitmer fued.

Re living off DVD sales - So what? If it turns profit that cant be seen as a negative can it?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Ring of Honor - the showcase of the overrated.

Explain this please? And if its going to be another diatribe about Punk and or Danielson spare us and copy a link to your previous ones. Wrestling, IMO, by its very nature is very much open to opinion of what constitute over rated and genuine class. For example some people love to watch, say, a Cena Vs Lashley match, while others would imagine that as painful, and would prefer to watch a fairly techical affair between Danielson and Shelley and vice versa. Does that make me say that Cena is over rated because i dont care for his upcoming match? No, It just means I dont care for it. I may not like Cena but I can certainly appreciate that he is probably the hardest worker in wrestling today, something I dont think I would have ever said as recently as a month or two ago.

Re an Irish show - If ROH could only pull 1200ish in Liverpool, it would be lucky to pull 500 in Ireland.

estebancambias · 16-07-2007 1:45pm

Wow. There is only a small number of us then.

Mr.Nice Guy · 17-07-2007 9:45pm

gimmick wrote:

Re living off DVD sales - So what? If it turns profit that cant be seen as a negative can it?

Well they're moving into PPV now so obviously living off of DVD sales is not their preferred situation.

gimmick wrote:

Explain this please? And if its going to be another diatribe about Punk and or Danielson spare us and copy a link to your previous ones. Wrestling, IMO, by its very nature is very much open to opinion of what constitute over rated and genuine class. For example some people love to watch, say, a Cena Vs Lashley match, while others would imagine that as painful, and would prefer to watch a fairly techical affair between Danielson and Shelley and vice versa. Does that make me say that Cena is over rated because i dont care for his upcoming match? No, It just means I dont care for it. I may not like Cena but I can certainly appreciate that he is probably the hardest worker in wrestling today, something I dont think I would have ever said as recently as a month or two ago.

Sorry to again bring up ROH's former messiah CM Punk but I must. This guy was hailed as the greatest wrestler of his generation, the next HBK blah, blah, blah. He was supposedly starring in 5 star matches and yet he comes to WWE and...he's actually quite average! Fancy that! Funny how he hasn't managed even a very good match in WWE thus far despite numerous WWE appearances. Oh MNG give him time and wait until he and Elijah Burke have a one-on-one match I was told. And what happened? It was mediocre. In fact Punk seemed a shoe-in to be made ECW champion and they didn't even have faith in him to hold the strap and instead went with a guy who had been floundering on Heat for months.

Of course Danielson is ROH's new messiah and if I dare say a bad word against him it must be another "diatribe". Yawn.

Don't you realise that the bulk of these die-hard messiahs who you and other ROH fans hero-worship are actually more often than not out of their depth when they make it to the big leagues? The whole company is overrated right down to the fans who think they're smarter than they actually are.

Fozzy · 17-07-2007 10:08pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well they're moving into PPV now so obviously living off of DVD sales is not their preferred situation.

It was more a situation of it being too good to turn down. ROH have to pay very little and they get increased revenue and exposure from ppv

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Don't you realise that the bulk of these die-hard messiahs who you and other ROH fans hero-worship are actually more often than not out of their depth when they make it to the big leagues? The whole company is overrated right down to the fans who think they're smarter than they actually are.

I don't know what other ways I can put it. CM Punk entertained me more than any other wrestler in the last five years when he was in ROH. That was not due to him being in ROH, it was not due to me thinking that someone not in WWE is in some way more talented, it was nothing to do with me being "smarky". If CM Punk did exactly what he did in ROH now in WWE, if anything I'd probably be even more entertained by him than I was. Do you think that what we're seeing CM Punk do now is what I enjoyed so much when he was in ROH?!

I just don't understand your view at all! You seem to think that a ROH fan will look at ROH in a different way than they would to WWE. As if an average match which happened in WWE would be called crap by someone like me, but if the exact same match happened in ROH I'd call it great. That just isn't the case! I'm a wrestling fan, I don't care where the matches are coming from, if they're good they're good, end of story

I can't fathom your "out of their depth" comment either. WWE does not employ all the best wrestlers in the world, and if you think they do then you're delusional

I really just don't understand your hatred for ROH! It almost comes across like you're bitter that some wrestling fans can enjoy the matches there and have a good time watching them. Maybe it's just not for you for whatever reason, but personally I enjoy most of what ROH puts on as I think the majority are very good wrestling matches

Vince135792003 · 17-07-2007 11:18pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well they're moving into PPV now so obviously living off of DVD sales is not their preferred situation.

.

Well any decent company in wrestling is always looking to make new fans and find new ways to make money. This is just a very low risk way for ROH to do it. And it still really revolves around dvds.

They hope that people who order the ppv will like what they see, become a fan and order many, many dvds.

Mr.Nice Guy · 18-07-2007 12:09am

Vince135792003 wrote:

Well any decent company in wrestling is always looking to make new fans and find new ways to make money. This is just a very low risk way for ROH to do it. And it still really revolves around dvds.

They hope that people who order the ppv will like what they see, become a fan and order many, many dvds.

I don't object to the way they're going about things but I do think it's premature to be comparing them to companies who have done a hell of a lot more.

Fozzy wrote:

I don't know what other ways I can put it. CM Punk entertained me more than any other wrestler in the last five years when he was in ROH. That was not due to him being in ROH, it was not due to me thinking that someone not in WWE is in some way more talented, it was nothing to do with me being "smarky". If CM Punk did exactly what he did in ROH now in WWE, if anything I'd probably be even more entertained by him than I was. Do you think that what we're seeing CM Punk do now is what I enjoyed so much when he was in ROH?!

But I'm talking about his wrestling ability. I'll agree that his persona in ROH was far better than his two dimensional babyface role that he has in WWE. However is he in the top 5 or top 10 wrestlers in WWE? I would say certainly not and so I just don't get the hype for the guy.

Fozzy wrote:

I just don't understand your view at all! You seem to think that a ROH fan will look at ROH in a different way than they would to WWE. As if an average match which happened in WWE would be called crap by someone like me, but if the exact same match happened in ROH I'd call it great. That just isn't the case! I'm a wrestling fan, I don't care where the matches are coming from, if they're good they're good, end of story.

Well hate's a strong word and I don't think I hate them but I find the whole company from the wrestlers down to the fans to be totally pompous and self-absorbed. The style of wrestling in ROH just isn't good in my opinion.

Fozzy wrote:

I can't fathom your "out of their depth" comment either. WWE does not employ all the best wrestlers in the world, and if you think they do then you're delusional.

You saying the Great Khali isn't one of the world's best?

Of course they don't always employ the best wrestlers in the world but to make it to the top in WWE you have to have a certain x-factor and I don't think ROH has any guys who fit that criteria right now. Bryan Danielson does not ooze charisma in my view either!

Fozzy wrote:

I really just don't understand your hatred for ROH! It almost comes across like you're bitter that some wrestling fans can enjoy the matches there and have a good time watching them. Maybe it's just not for you for whatever reason, but personally I enjoy most of what ROH puts on as I think the majority are very good wrestling matches.

I'm not that I'm bitter it's just that there are certain fans in the wrestling community who enjoy hyping up wrestlers who really are not proven commodities. These tend to be the same people who proclaimed Mistico the greatest wrestler of 2006 (still can't believe how absurd that was).

I suppose Morishima will win it this year over Shawn Michaels. Then the lunatics will well and truly be running the asylum.

Fozzy · 18-07-2007 12:54am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I'm not that I'm bitter it's just that there are certain fans in the wrestling community who enjoy hyping up wrestlers who really are not proven commodities. These tend to be the same people who proclaimed Mistico the greatest wrestler of 2006 (still can't believe how absurd that was).

That Wrestling Observer Award wasn't for "greatest wrestler of the year", it was for the guy who "has the ability to carry an entire promotion by themselves". Mistico sold out more arenas than any other wrestler last year and was immensely important to CMLL. He absolutely deserved that award. There seems to be a bit of a backlash on him now though, he got booed pretty heavily at an event at the weekend

For the record, Bryan Danielson won the closest thing to a "greatest wrestler of the year" award and I would not argue with it

As for comparing ROH to ECW, Lance Storm wrote a nice piece about his ROH experience here and he compares it to ECW by the third paragraph

Vince135792003 · 18-07-2007 8:24am

Fozzy wrote:

That Wrestling Observer Award wasn't for "greatest wrestler of the year", it was for the guy who "has the ability to carry an entire promotion by themselves". Mistico sold out more arenas than any other wrestler last year and was immensely important to CMLL.

Exactly, I remember an interview with Steve Sims, a guy that covers lucha who said that on weekends Mistico could wrestle six times in one day!

Its also why Tito Ortiz was second in that same vote. He is by no means the best MMA fighter but as a draw he was an incredible one in 2006.

gimmick · 18-07-2007 8:34am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I suppose Morishima will win it this year over Shawn Michaels. Then the lunatics will well and truly be running the asylum.

Comments like that make your entire arguments pretty much worthless. Morishima and HBK is like comparing Liverpool FC to Donegal GAA. Both Very good at what they do, but quite different at the same time. Crap comparison I know.

I don't object to the way they're going about things but I do think it's premature to be comparing them to companies who have done a hell of a lot more.

Who is comparing them to other companies?

Well hate's a strong word and I don't think I hate them but I find the whole company from the wrestlers down to the fans to be totally pompous and self-absorbed. The style of wrestling in ROH just isn't good in my opinion.

The wrestlers? How so? Some fans, well ok, but you seem to be taking that entirely from looking at the ROH forum, which i dont understand why you look at anyway as you just dont like ROH fans.

Totally pompous and self absorbed? All ROH fans? Can the same be said about people who think you have to be in the WWE to have made it big?

WTR the style, well thats your opinion. I and many others like it. if you dont like it, dont watch it, and save time.

Bryan Danielson does not ooze charisma in my view either!

No one has ever said Danielson oozes charisma. he is a good heel and a great wrestler.

In fact Punk seemed a shoe-in to be made ECW champion and they didn't even have faith in him to hold the strap and instead went with a guy who had been floundering on Heat for months.

It is too early to give Punk the EVW world title, as he has not held any belt in WWE yet. It would have been bad business and poorly thought out. At least Nitro has been around for a few years, been involved in the IC scene for quite a while and a multi time tag champ. Thats better business. Had Punk been given the title, people would be crowing all to quickly that he isn't deserving and not paid his dues.

Of course Danielson is ROH's new messiah and if I dare say a bad word against him it must be another "diatribe".

You said before that Danielson is a rest hold/headlock merchant when that is quite clearly wrong. Say bad all you want, but until you actually know what you are talking about with regard to him maybe dont comment. Again, if you just dont like his style, fine, but dont say he is crap just because you think so.

These tend to be the same people who proclaimed Mistico the greatest wrestler of 2006 (still can't believe how absurd that was).

Do you watch Lucha?

Fozzy · 19-07-2007 3:20pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Liverpool FC don't play Gaelic football so I don't get your point. My point is that a guy who truly deserves the award will probably miss out because he's not a hero to die-hards but rather the mainstream wrestling community.

Shouldn't die-hard's opinions count for more though? If you look at the music industry, the mainstream opinion is that the likes of Westlife, Crazy Frog and Girls Aloud are the best music going. But if you ask for the opinions of die-hard music fans, who appreciate the creativity, originality, etc. of artists, you'd get a much different view of the best music

Anyway, the mainstream wrestling community is basically the WWE wrestling community, right? I would say that if all you watch is WWE then you should be disqualified from voting on who the best wrestler is, as you have no idea if you only have a partial view. I would also say that Wrestling Observer Newsletter subscribers are some of the most informed fans in the world and so they would have an even better idea of who's most important to their promotion than the casual fan who just watches WWE. Depending on what happens later this year, I could see Rampage Jackson giving anyone a run for their money in this award for 2007

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Sorry but who are you to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've seen his numerous chin-locks and rest-holds and he's another Randy Orton in that regard. I even read an ROH fan mark-out once because someone chanted "boring" to one of his holds and he proceeded to do a whole string of these holds. Apparently this made Danielson "cool" whereas I think it makes him look limited. Just because we disagree on his style is no reason to start bitching.

I know you're a fan of the likes of Finlay and Regal, which is why I find your opinion of Danielson to be so strange. Regal has said that training Bryan is one of his proudest achievements in interviews, and Regal is a big reason why Bryan changed his style to a more technical style when he was learning from him. You can say what you want about Chris Benoit the person, but as a wrestler you can't argue that he knew his stuff and he mentioned Bryan in the same breath as Regal and Finlay when talking about the best technical wrestler in the world. I just don't get how you can compare Danielson to Orton rather than those guys. He's like an American version of Regal

Mr.Nice Guy · 19-07-2007 6:00pm

Fozzy wrote:

Shouldn't die-hard's opinions count for more though? If you look at the music industry, the mainstream opinion is that the likes of Westlife, Crazy Frog and Girls Aloud are the best music going. But if you ask for the opinions of die-hard music fans, who appreciate the creativity, originality, etc. of artists, you'd get a much different view of the best music

Well I think when it comes to awards the mainstream is usually fair in music. You'll see bands like Snow patrol, Arctic Monkeys etc picking up gongs and i reckon they're good bands myself. I think die-hard wrestling fans tend to favour lesser known wrestlers which in my view makes it a farce.

Fozzy wrote:

Anyway, the mainstream wrestling community is basically the WWE wrestling community, right? I would say that if all you watch is WWE then you should be disqualified from voting on who the best wrestler is, as you have no idea if you only have a partial view. I would also say that Wrestling Observer Newsletter subscribers are some of the most informed fans in the world and so they would have an even better idea of who's most important to their promotion than the casual fan who just watches WWE. Depending on what happens later this year, I could see Rampage Jackson giving anyone a run for their money in this award for 2007.

I don't agree as the WWE is the pinnacle when it comes to wrestling. To me your argument is like saying the Player of the Year award in England should not be judged with Premiership players but on players who excel in lesser leagues. I don't think that's fair. I think the best players are from the highest level and I think those who excel at wrestling's hihgest level - HBK, Edge, Cena etc. should be obvious contenders instead of nobodies like 'Rampage Jackson' (never heard of him honestly).

Fozzy wrote:

I know you're a fan of the likes of Finlay and Regal, which is why I find your opinion of Danielson to be so strange. Regal has said that training Bryan is one of his proudest achievements in interviews, and Regal is a big reason why Bryan changed his style to a more technical style when he was learning from him. You can say what you want about Chris Benoit the person, but as a wrestler you can't argue that he knew his stuff and he mentioned Bryan in the same breath as Regal and Finlay when talking about the best technical wrestler in the world. I just don't get how you can compare Danielson to Orton rather than those guys. He's like an American version of Regal

It's true Regal has spoken in glowing terms about Danielson but I don't see them as being in the same league. To me he is all hype. Samoa Joe is another guy that ROH fans have hyped up and I do have a lot of admiration for him but as for Danielson, I don't get the fascination. Put Samoa Joe on a big PPV event and I reckon he'd deliver. I don't think Danielson would.

ShawnRaven · 19-07-2007 6:27pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

nobodies like 'Rampage Jackson' (never heard of him honestly).

A pretty big name in UFC at the minute, hardly a nobody (as opposed to half the people the cameras focus on in the front row every monday night on RAW) but if you don't follow UFC then it's understandable that you didn't hear of him.

VR!

Fozzy · 19-07-2007 6:27pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I think the best players are from the highest level and I think those who excel at wrestling's hihgest level - HBK, Edge, Cena etc. should be obvious contenders instead of nobodies like 'Rampage Jackson' (never heard of him honestly).

Rampage is the UFC light-heavyweight champion, I was just making the point that I don't think Shawn Michaels is certain to win that award this year and I don't think Morishima should either

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It's true Regal has spoken in glowing terms about Danielson but I don't see them as being in the same league. To me he is all hype. Samoa Joe is another guy that ROH fans have hyped up and I do have a lot of admiration for him but as for Danielson, I don't get the fascination. Put Samoa Joe on a big PPV event and I reckon he'd deliver. I don't think Danielson would.

I completely disagree as I've seen plenty of his matches that I would rate very highly, regardless of if they were on a big ppv or in front of a dozen people in a run-down gym. There's something about your way of thinking that I just don't understand. To me, you almost seem caught up in the magnitude of the show that the wrestlers appear on as having some sort of effect on the quality of the matches. To me it just doesn't matter. Joe was hyped up to a level he was deserving of and so is Danielson

Vince135792003 · 19-07-2007 7:27pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

instead of nobodies like 'Rampage Jackson' (never heard of him honestly).

He's arguably one of the most charismatic guys in MMA right now. To compare him to wrestling, he's a cross between Junk Yard Dog meets Shawn Michaels (he got into religion a while back). He howls. He wears a big chain to the ring. He can talk all day. Basically he's a lot of fun.

Business wise, he was in a fight with Chuck Lidell that drew 1 million ppv buys in May. In September he'll be in an event with Dan Henderson that will be shown for free on Spike tv. Expect big ratings in males 18-34.

As a fighter, he was a Pride grandpriz middle weight finalist losing to Wanderlai Silva in 2003. He's currently the UFC light heavy weight champion.

At this point I wouldn't vote for him though as wrestler of the year. I think theres a strong enough argument for Chuck Lidell just off his drawing power alone. The end of year awards runs from November to November which means Chuck has been involved in 2 ppvs that have drawn one million plus buys with 1 more event to come in September. That's impressive.

Just a little off the point, I don't think MNG is much of an MMA fan. However, I'd really recommend some old Pride shows in Japan. Its basically pro-wrestling in how its presented, through entrances, angles they do like calling people to the ring, the way they get characters over etc.. Its a lot of fun and I get a big kick out of it looking at it from a pro-wrestling perspective.

Mr.Nice Guy · 20-07-2007 12:07am

Apologies to MMA fans but I don't follow MMA so never heard of Mr Jackson.

Fozzy wrote:

I completely disagree as I've seen plenty of his matches that I would rate very highly, regardless of if they were on a big ppv or in front of a dozen people in a run-down gym. There's something about your way of thinking that I just don't understand. To me, you almost seem caught up in the magnitude of the show that the wrestlers appear on as having some sort of effect on the quality of the matches. To me it just doesn't matter. Joe was hyped up to a level he was deserving of and so is Danielson

I don't think the magnitude of the show that the wrestlers appear on has an effect on the quality of the matches BUT I do think the magnitutde of the show has an effect on the standing in which these wrestlers should be seen.

To me your belief is like saying Cristiano Ronaldo should not be judged the best player in England in 2007 even though he put in fine displays at the highest level. Instead let's give it to Jason Koumas who had fine displays for West Brom in the Championship. I look at the two and rate the former more based on the pressures he is under performing at a higher level.

Surely it is a better accomplishment to put on top wrestling matches on shows in which thousands are in attendance and in which millions are watching worldwide?

Fozzy · 20-07-2007 1:42am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

To me your belief is like saying Cristiano Ronaldo should not be judged the best player in England in 2007 even though he put in fine displays at the highest level. Instead let's give it to Jason Koumas who had fine displays for West Brom in the Championship. I look at the two and rate the former more based on the pressures he is under performing at a higher level.

I get what you're saying but I don't think a direct comparison can be made. For one, indy wrestlers are smaller than WWE wrestlers on average. That's not because smaller wrestlers are less talented, it's because WWE generally likes big guys. In football, the top clubs will want the best players regardless of their image. So there are talented guys out there who aren't going to make it to WWE, but it's not because they can't put on great matches

There's also the case of the WWE style. WWE have a certain style which they think is best for their aims and purposes. It's not the right style or the wrong style, it just is what it is. There are plenty of different styles of wrestling and there's plenty of wrestlers who can put on great matches in these styles. For instance, main events on most indy shows will usually go 20 minutes at least. The wrestlers in these matches could put on great 20 minute matches, but if they were to go to WWE they'd have to work much shorter matches as they wouldn't be pushed to the top of the card straight away. What you're saying would mean that it doesn't matter if a guy can have some of the greatest matches in the world working his own style for 20 minutes, because if he can't put on a decent short match in WWE then he doesn't have it

The Japanese style of wrestling is different to WWE's, and promotions in Japan have their own brand of wrestling too. There's guys there who can put on excellent matches time after time. But none of them are going to make it to WWE anytime soon. I don't think you can say that it's because they're just not talented enough. It's more to do with them not having the image WWE want and the style they excel in isn't what WWE wants to put on their shows. If you want to use a football analogy, I would say it's like the difference between strikers and defenders. John Terry's a great defender, but he won't be winning any striker of the year awards. There are some great wrestlers outside of WWE, but they just aren't what WWE wants. They're just different styles

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Surely it is a better accomplishment to put on top wrestling matches on shows in which thousands are in attendance and in which millions are watching worldwide?

To an extent, but the number of people watching doesn't affect how good the match is and how it should be judged. Eddie Guerrero had great matches in WWE and in Japan and Mexico. I wouldn't rate the WWE ones higher just because more people saw them. It was a big accomplishment for him to make it to WWE, but imagine that this is 1995. Would you dismiss Eddie as someone who just doesn't have it since he's working the indies?

Fozzy · 03-08-2007 2:49pm

Probably doesn't deserve a thread of its own, but PWInsider says that Jimmy Rave has left ROH and won't be working for FIP either. Sources say it wasn't amicable

He's really come on in the last year, it's a pity if he's gone. It could just be a work and turn into something fun, but if not then I'm sure Jimmy will find plenty of demand for himself elsewhere

EDIT: I just realised that this would be killer if it was related to the "Project 161" deal. For anyone who hasn't heard about this, here's a summary from the ROH boards:

"We are on the verge of something incredible. An innovative wrestling angle? A new gimmick? A new stable? Wild speculation on nothing? You be the judge.

Here is what we know so far:

1. At the ROH shows last weekend, flyers were handed out which read:

"Nothing Saves
A WORLD Without HONOR Will
Suffer

www.abusedsociety.com "

2. The "AbusedSociety" website features a picture of the Statue of LIberty with blood running out of her eye and the words:

"littered streets of the lost
the stend of pathetic, resigned to blood and rust
everything wasted
transparent
there is no honor
you will soon dicover"

Along the bottom of the site, it reads "project 161"

3. If you click on the words YOU WILL SOON DISCOVER, you are taken to another site. This site can also be accessed by http://www.nhsociety.com . This site features a picture of a burning city and the words:

"one second to know
the city will fall
eyes wide open"

the bottom of this site also says "project 161"

Let the speculation begin....

I think this revolves around the return of Jimmy Jacobs. He will return in Chicago (hence the words "Second" and "city" on the second site). He will return at the 161st show, hence the "Project 161" (credit to TimorousVince on PWTorch site for putting that together). The 161st show is September 15th in Chicago."

Double C · 03-08-2007 2:57pm

My money is on a work too. I've always wanted to like Jimmy Rave and I do enjoy his new gimmick but he's really not a character I'm going to miss if he does go. I think his best match was against Danielson at the 4th Anniversary show and I don't think he'll ever be in a match that good again. The Nigel match in Liverpool was really enjoyable too, but that was mainly due to Rave getting killed.

I see Eddie Kingston is coming in, working preshows first, ala Do or Die, maybe he'll be brought up to do something with Hero eventually.

Fozzy · 03-08-2007 3:13pm

Something I missed earlier, the photo on that abusedsociety.com website is of Gabe and his wife, and he posted this on the ROH boards after a "spammer" posted a load of "cryptic" messages about Project 161:

Ok, all this crap ends now. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm in a bad mood because I am. I am trying my best to keep my composure. I just had a long day/night of production on the Japan DVDs. I sign on here, I'm actually feeling pretty good about things because I just watched a lot of great wrestling from our Japan shows. So what do I find:

1) A private email I send to someone requesting that photos and information about my family be taken off a website is now made public. This is my family, not an angle. Understand that. When I send you an email it is private. When I make a request about my family it is real. Lets get that straight right now.

2) The clowns who are attempting to f*** with my life and ROH, which is my life, spam this board again after it takes me two hours the other night to clean it up. Not only that, but other people decide to jump in. I am about to start banning people like crazy so I suggest everyone read the rules and stick to them quickly. My patience is running out. Again, I am trying to keep my composure here, but I have had enough. I now have to go clean up the board again after a long day of production. I suggest if you are in doubt about something you posted that you delete it to yourself. I will ban anyone involved with any posts that are in doubt of breaking any rules. This is a warning. If this doesn't apply to you and you are a productive member of this board I apologize and please ignore this rant.

3) Now we have more people than ever checking this board and it is a disgrace to the company. I want everyone to know that police have been alerted and I will do whatever I can to stop these websites and harrassment both to me personally and my wife. This is your warning. Stop it now.

That is all for now. I'm not playing a sick game here. It is over and I need to go back to doing what deserves my attention and that's making ROH and FIP as good as possible for you.

If this doesn't apply to you sorry for the rant. If it does then take this warning seriously.

This is turning into a damn fine angle, especially if Rave is involved in it! Although part of me does remain sceptical...

gimmick · 03-08-2007 3:42pm

This is rubbish. Its not on TV so whats the point of doing this? If this were on WWE, a proper wrestling promotion, it would be way better and then I would like it.

But on topic, rather than pointlessly trolling looking for a reaction - If Rave is no loner working with ROH or FIP, it would have been said so in a newswire or even on the main site. This could possibly be a stable of some sorts, with BJ, Pearce and Rave coming together. That said, I am basing this on nothing other than what I have read. I am fairly behind lately as I gave ROH a miss for about 6 weeks so I am only at Fighting Spirit at the moment. if its an angle its pretty cool though.

Double C · 03-08-2007 5:19pm

Tons of details on the Rave/ROH split!

-This is not an angle as some may have thought, Jimmy Rave has received his official release from Ring of Honor and is finished with the promotion. While many feel that there have been issues brewing for a while, the apparent last straw was last weekend in Deer Park, Long Island. Rave suffered an ear injury during his bout, and after his match he apparently demanded to talk to ROH officials during the show; it was then that Rave declared that he was leaving the company and wanted a release.

-Some in the company feel that Rave was just lashing out, but with his history of him being unhappy, ROH decided to use the money they would invest in him and use it elsewhere; like another under card talent they could lock into a contract. There is believed to be a lot of heat of Rave due to the way he went about things, as he unprofessionally confronted management during a show. He has also been dropped from FIP, the sister promotion of ROH, which Gabe Sapolsky also books for.

-Many wrestlers saw the move coming, as it had been obvious that Rave had not been happy backstage. Rave was actually telling others at the ROH event in Edison, NJ this past Saturday that he thought he was about to be released. People close to Rave feel that the build-up of injuries suffered by Rave in recent months had added to his attitude. Contrary to some reports, Rave wasn't receiving medical insurance as part of his ROH deal; which is seen by many as very one-sided in favor of ROH and they don't guarantee a number of dates for the performers.

Credit: PWInsider.com

Hmmm sounds legit now, but then again you never know. There could be plenty of good stuff brewing in Gabe's head!

Bubs101 · 03-08-2007 5:35pm

Fozzy wrote:

In football, the top clubs will want the best players regardless of their image

Not strictly true. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Italian football but Antonio Cassano, a techinichally superior player, is being skirted around by big clubs strictly because of his image as someone who's just in it for money

Fozzy · 04-08-2007 12:28pm

Bubs101 wrote:

Not strictly true. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Italian football but Antonio Cassano, a techinichally superior player, is being skirted around by big clubs strictly because of his image as someone who's just in it for money

There are extremely few examples like that though. There are plenty when it comes to WWE. Nobody can claim that Lashley has main-evented the last two ppvs because he's one of the most talented guys on the roster. The reason he did is because of his image. And conversely, there are guys who don't have the image Vince likes who are very talented. Vince's opinion is not the be all and end all when it comes to who are the best wrestlers in the world!

As for Rave, it sounds slightly strange that he thought he'd be released only 3 months (I think) after signing his contract. Surely the problems were foreseeable. And I've only ever heard good things about him as a person, this sounds more like something his character would do. Still nothing official from ROH either, when most of the fans are obviously wondering what's going on. Kinda strange for ROH to do something like that when you think about it

And in other news, Delirious is the new head trainer for the ROH wrestling school. A fine choice

gimmick · 05-08-2007 1:02pm

^ How the hell will the students understand him?

Fozzy · 06-08-2007 3:20pm

I guess we'll just have a load of ROH students in the future who'll cut promos like him

Gabe posted on the ROH boards saying that he got that Project 161 site shut down and that the calls to his house had stopped. Now there's a site at www.project161.com which has a link to http://projectonesixone.blogspot.com which has a load of crap that looks like something Raven would write, only this has better grammar. I guess we'll find out what the **** (if anything) it's all about by the weekend

Double C · 06-08-2007 4:28pm

I smell Jimmy Jacobs

Double C · 08-08-2007 5:33pm

I stand corrected. This **** is gettting weirder and weirder with every blog entry. There's a picture of two young kids on the main page now, kinda look like young Briscoes. I'll be staying up late on friday to find out exactly what all this nonsense is all about.

Fozzy · 09-08-2007 12:47am

Definitely looks like the Briscoes. I'm kinda missing the point of it all now because no one can talk about it on the ROH board, so there's not much way to find out about it. But I keep coming back to how someone managed to put a flyer on every seat in the building at an ROH show if they didn't have anything to do with ROH

Fozzy · 11-08-2007 8:46pm

The only thing I heard about that happened at last night's show was during the Chris Hero vs Nigel McGuinness match, the lights went off and "Project 161" was repeated over the intercom

Fozzy · 12-08-2007 6:04pm

And at Death Before Dishonor Night 2, there was a guy in a Project 161 hoodie telling people before the show that "Project 161 is real", which he said again when he hopped the guard rail during the show with a loudspeaker, while throwing t-shirts to the crowd, before getting kicked out

Fozzy · 13-08-2007 1:25am

Someone just phoned in to Wrestling Observer Live doing a quick Project 161 plug, before he got cut off. I think they're going to be really over as heels if they can get to more people with this, because not many seem to be enjoying it right now

Double C · 18-08-2007 3:25pm

PWInsider Hotline News wrote:

Matt Sydal is telling people close to him that he will sign with WWE for a developmental deal. Things could always change but he seems to have made up his mind. ROH, Japan, and TNA had all offered him contracts but he's decided to go for his dream.

Congrats to Sydal if this is true. He's very small though. He could get a try in the CW division eventually but tbh I see him being stuck in OVW.
Delirious on the other hand would get over on Smackdown, I wonder if WWE are thinking about him?