Final table of S.E. sat last night

sumoward · 22-08-2007 02:24AM #1

The Final table of the sat. 7 players left six get tickets. Big Blinds is 2k

You are second smallest stack with 10K. The smallest stack with 5kish is UTG. UTG folds you are next to act with AA.

All the stacks left to act have you covered and BB has half the chips at the table.

I assume you never find a fold here?

Just wondering as small stack has to double up on the blinds or you get the ticket.

BTW this inst me, I luck Boxed into a ticket as I got to final table around 4th in chips out of the 9.

As an aside I played one hand at the final 10 10 table and got some blinds. Now I didnt get great cards but should I cop on and stop being a chicken and have played a bit more.

LuckyLloyd · 22-08-2007 07:08AM

This post has been deleted.

kebabfest · 22-08-2007 08:53AM

I imagine everybody is playing tight at this stage as there would be no reason not ?
If you fold and the very next hand the shortstack (who'll be BB) doubles up the pressure is on you. as he'll have more chips then your good self.
All he needs is 1 lucky draw to do this and folding the BB in the next hand isnt really a possibility.
also you'll be next on the blinds after this to add to the Pressure.
I push ALL-IN.
If I get busted out on this there would be a few wheelie bins getting a boot on the way home !!

Mr.Plough · 22-08-2007 08:56AM

shoveski.

if the shorty doubles up after i fold aces i die inside

Blip · 22-08-2007 09:00AM

Auto Push,

You should at least take down the blinds if the rest of the table are playing/folding for a ticket, if your called you have the best hand PF and are in a very strong position.

sikes · 22-08-2007 09:04AM

We need details on the stacks and how players have been playing. Will someone raise to 5k then everyone call the next hand but most importantly the stacks of everyone else. Picking up the blinds could be close to useless.

Primewise · 22-08-2007 09:17AM

PUSH!

Everyone at the table sees that the UTG short stack is about to be eaten up by the blinds, so everyone expects a possible game over in 2 hands anyway.

Big stacks are gauranteed a ticket so they will fold.
Other Small stacks do not want to risk busting so they should be folding KK to your push in this situation
So you have HUGE fold equity if you push. The only situation you might be called is by a player who doesnt understand how to play a satellite and who ALSO happens to pick up a monster

Even if this happens you have at least 80% to win if called.

If you wimp out and fold, the UTG short stack is probably 50/50 to double up or bust in the blinds. That’s a 50% chance you will turn into the shortest stack

ollyk1 · 22-08-2007 09:37AM

There is another option.

Offer €2k between the 6 others at the table and you take all the tickets. Then sell them.

If they refuse push on "tilt"

BigCityBanker · 22-08-2007 09:39AM

sumoward wrote:

BTW this inst me, I luck Boxed into a ticket as I got to final table around 4th in chips out of the 9.

well done.

I cant really help myself from not pushing in this spot.

sumoward · 22-08-2007 09:43AM

sikes wrote:

We need details on the stacks and how players have been playing. Will someone raise to 5k then everyone call the next hand but most importantly the stacks of everyone else. Picking up the blinds could be close to useless.

Guy with AA has 10k
I am next with 23K
Next player has 20-25k?
Next has 40k
SB has 20K?
BB has huge stack over 100K

The play when before we got down to 7 play was very very tight.

Big stack had bet out a few times and taken some blinds. Smallest stack had gone in on Button for all of her 3k, SB and me in BB (Blinds at 2k) mark at this stage had called her and we checked down and she trippled up with a pair.

When we are down to seven it is no longer as loose as that.

RoundTower · 22-08-2007 09:48AM

Primewise wrote:

If you wimp out and fold, the UTG short stack is probably 50/50 to double up or bust in the blinds. That’s a 50% chance you will turn into the shortest stack

I think this is an interesting spot. It depends a lot on what the other stacks are: if no one has more than 20k or so then you almost certainly are not getting called and I think you have a clear push.

If there are a couple of players with 80k stacks (unlikely) it is very close. I think it is still a push though because you will get knocked out less than 20% of the time, and if you win uncalled you go ahead of the short stack even if he doubles up.

LuckyLloyd · 22-08-2007 09:49AM

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RoundTower · 22-08-2007 09:50AM

OK hadn't seen that post. I think it is a push, obviously when the big blind calls you with 33 and knocks you out everyone will tell you how bad a play it was.

zuutroy · 22-08-2007 09:50AM

Push and type AA in the chat window ftw!

RasTa · 22-08-2007 09:59AM

Meh if it ain't a WSOP sat or 4 figure buy in, I'm pushing.

5starpool · 22-08-2007 10:00AM

I got bored of waiting for cards and committed hari kari against Paddy when he had a real hand last night. He was his more normal relatively entertaining self last night.

In this spot I probably push as I would feel worse about folding and failing to get a ticket than pushing and failing to get a ticket.

LuckyLloyd · 22-08-2007 10:02AM

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shoutman · 22-08-2007 10:21AM

Its a push for me. I cant see how you can fold AA here, even though shortie has m of under 2 one double up and you could be in trouble. You push and at worst you are huge favourite and are sitting pretty on 23odd k.

I dont see how its justafiable to fold in this situation, imo sbb has 50/50 chance of going out, so you have 50/50 chance of getting a ticket if you fold, and you probably have 80% chance of getting ticket if you call, ie. if you won with your Aces you could probably sit out your way to victory even if shortie on 5k was to double up.

sumoward · 22-08-2007 10:47AM

5starpool wrote:

I got bored of waiting for cards and committed hari kari against Paddy when he had a real hand last night. He was his more normal relatively entertaining self last night.

On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.

zuutroy · 22-08-2007 10:50AM

If you push you're say 80% to get a caller and 80% to win against ATC.
That gives you a 64% chance of 13k chips
20% chance of no caller to give you 3k chips
16% chance of busting. -10k chips

EV= 8320+600-1600= +7320 chips.

Too much can happen if the villain doubles up on his coin flip and you both have M's of 3 so I think you have to push now.

5starpool · 22-08-2007 10:55AM

sumoward wrote:

On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.

Ya, I was still there for that alright, so at least I know who you are now.

sumoward · 22-08-2007 10:58AM

5starpool wrote:

Ya, I was still there for that alright, so at least I know who you are now.

where were you sitting?

5starpool · 22-08-2007 11:02AM

That was me you were talking to at the registration desk before it started. I was seat 8, beside Vera.

sumoward · 22-08-2007 11:14AM

5starpool wrote:

That was me you were talking to at the registration desk before it started. I was seat 8, beside Vera.

Ah very good, BTW did you now that castle was the childhood home to Anne Boleyn?

5starpool · 22-08-2007 11:18AM

sumoward wrote:

Ah very good, BTW did you now that castle was the childhood home to Anne Boleyn?

You are quite the thorough researcher aren't you? I didn't know that.

strewelpeter · 22-08-2007 11:24AM

sumoward wrote:

On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.

That was the hand after I got Paddy to call a raise in the BB and then fold on a raggy flop that paired a 5 for him. I think it might be what is known in some quarters as the 8 second effect

Hitman Actual · 22-08-2007 11:25AM

If you run it through ICM you'll find it's a marginal push. Your equity (in ticket terms) is currently approx 'half' a ticket. If you double up your equity goes to '75%' of a ticket. But you only double up, say, ~85% of the time on average, which equates to approx 63% of a ticket, which is better than the '50%' of a ticket you start with. [This ignores the times you just steal the blinds, which obviously adds a bit to your equity]

Does that make sense??

connie147 · 22-08-2007 11:30AM

I'm not folding AA here. If I've more chips,well thats a different scenario, but its very possible that the shortstack will double up next hand and then I'm the short stack. I'm pushing with the best hand,hoping the table realises I'm not pushing without a monster in the position I'm in, and if I'm called,then hopefully they hold up. But whether they do or not, I still reckon I've made the right play,so I'd have no regrets.

shoutman · 22-08-2007 11:35AM

I think you are saying push.

bops · 22-08-2007 11:59AM

you pushed
bb called with crap
he hit 2 pair/straight
he laughed
you cried
the shortie laughed more and went whoop whoop!!

ul

...how did i do??

sumoward · 22-08-2007 12:00PM

bops wrote:

you pushed
bb called with crap
he hit 2 pair/straight
he laughed
you cried
the shortie laughed more and went whoop whoop!!

ul

...how did i do??

It wasnt me....

RoundTower · 22-08-2007 01:01PM

lenny_leonard wrote:

If you run it through ICM you'll find it's a marginal push. Your equity (in ticket terms) is currently approx 'half' a ticket. If you double up your equity goes to '75%' of a ticket. But you only double up, say, ~85% of the time on average, which equates to approx 63% of a ticket, which is better than the '50%' of a ticket you start with. [This ignores the times you just steal the blinds, which obviously adds a bit to your equity]

Does that make sense??

no, because ICM doesn't take into account that the short stack will be in the blinds next, which is a very important part of the situation.

cardshark202 · 22-08-2007 01:09PM

Yeah I would push here, don't think its that close. Interesting spot though.

Hitman Actual · 22-08-2007 01:13PM

RoundTower wrote:

no, because ICM doesn't take into account that the short stack will be in the blinds next, which is a very important part of the situation.

I missed that part, I thought the AA guy was the shortest stack with 10K. It's much closer so. To put figures on it, I suppose you need to estimate the chance of the shortstack being eliminated in the blinds.

strewelpeter · 22-08-2007 01:17PM

IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each

sumoward · 22-08-2007 01:20PM

strewelpeter wrote:

IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each

were you the Guy to the left of paddy at the Final table?

bottom feeder · 22-08-2007 01:44PM

shove the fecking thing FFS...

cardshark202 · 22-08-2007 02:05PM

If the tiny stack pushes UTG i think you should call AA there

ianmc38 · 22-08-2007 02:11PM

id push but im not sure.

eoghan104 · 22-08-2007 02:28PM

strewelpeter wrote:

IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each

I would have thought that if Vera shoved UTG its an even better time to call no? That way the BB will also call and she has 2 hands to beat one of which being AA. To me that makes it a much easier call surley?

Hitman Actual · 22-08-2007 02:42PM

I agree, it's a much clearer call if UTG pushes.

opr · 22-08-2007 02:45PM

What are people views on a number of people calling with the intention to check the hand down giving the small stack next to no chance of winning ?

In sats online this situation often happens and you see people in the chat box urging everyone at the table to call and then we all check it down and get a ticket

Is this considered collusion or just part of sat play ?

Opr

ollyk1 · 22-08-2007 02:50PM

opr wrote:

What are people views on a number of people calling with the intention to check the hand down giving the small stack next to no chance of winning ?

In sats online this situation often happens and you see people in the chat box urging everyone at the table to call and then we all check it down and get a ticket

Is this considered collusion or just part of sat play ?

Opr

If people call and nothing is said then I don't mind. If anything is said it's collusion in my book.

LuckyLloyd · 22-08-2007 02:50PM

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sumoward · 22-08-2007 02:54PM

The conclusion:

AA goes all-in.

It folds around to BB with a gazillion chips. He calls on the Blind.

flop 99x

BB shows J9:eek:

Turn is a J.

House of 9's and J's busting AA.

Cruel

LuckyLloyd · 22-08-2007 03:01PM

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shoutman · 22-08-2007 03:49PM

Bad Beat, but I still dont understand how this is marginal, you fold and you are not near guaranteed of a ticket, you double up and you almost are, you are 80% fave if you get a caller.
I call every single time here.

Rickyroma · 22-08-2007 04:20PM

What's the etiquette regarding a shove followed by announcing that you have aces/ subtle cough...aces..cough?

Bad form?

I assume "accidentally" exposing your cards before anyone has had a chance to call your shove is not an option.

strewelpeter · 22-08-2007 06:31PM

eoghan104 wrote:

I would have thought that if Vera shoved UTG its an even better time to call no? That way the BB will also call and she has 2 hands to beat one of which being AA. To me that makes it a much easier call surley?

Absolutely not!
if the other shortstack loses you win first prize...which is the same as 6th prize ... it is then the classic case of the one time it is absoluely correct to fold Aces Pre.

I linked to these articles in a different thread...yer man can be a bit meh but I think these two articles are very good.
part 1
part 2

Yea Sumoword, thats me.

bottom feeder · 22-08-2007 06:40PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Yes, I would be of the same thinking. Wes, and others - this is not as super obvious as you would like to think. I believe pushing here is probably the right thing to do given the stack sizes - but it is marginal.

Really - sure i dont put much taught into any hands, actually i'd shove blind here..:D

Hitman Actual · 23-08-2007 09:54AM

strewelpeter wrote:

Absolutely not!
if the other shortstack loses you win first prize...which is the same as 6th prize ... it is then the classic case of the one time it is absoluely correct to fold Aces Pre.

I linked to these articles in a different thread...yer man can be a bit meh but I think these two articles are very good.
part 1
part 2

This is a different situation to anything in those articles (I assume you're talking about the last paragraph in part 2). Folding should guarantee you a ticket, say, half the time (assuming only the big stack BB calls). It's probably worse than half the time, but anyway. The other half of the time, UTG doubles up and you're still in a bingo fight for a ticket.

But calling the UTG AI gets you a ticket about 85% of the time on average. And the other 15% of the time you're still in with a chance, all-be-it a very small chance, of getting a ticket. I think folding AA here to a short-stacked UTG push is bad.

Final table of S.E. sat last night

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