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Final table of S.E. sat last night

  • 22-08-2007 02:24AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭


    The Final table of the sat. 7 players left six get tickets. Big Blinds is 2k

    You are second smallest stack with 10K. The smallest stack with 5kish is UTG. UTG folds you are next to act with AA.

    All the stacks left to act have you covered and BB has half the chips at the table.

    I assume you never find a fold here?

    Just wondering as small stack has to double up on the blinds or you get the ticket.

    BTW this inst me, I luck Boxed into a ticket as I got to final table around 4th in chips out of the 9.

    As an aside I played one hand at the final 10 10 table and got some blinds. Now I didnt get great cards but should I cop on and stop being a chicken and have played a bit more.:confused:


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,532 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 375 ✭✭kebabfest


    I imagine everybody is playing tight at this stage as there would be no reason not ?
    If you fold and the very next hand the shortstack (who'll be BB) doubles up the pressure is on you. as he'll have more chips then your good self.
    All he needs is 1 lucky draw to do this and folding the BB in the next hand isnt really a possibility.
    also you'll be next on the blinds after this to add to the Pressure.
    I push ALL-IN.
    If I get busted out on this there would be a few wheelie bins getting a boot on the way home !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭Mr.Plough


    shoveski.

    if the shorty doubles up after i fold aces i die inside


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭Blip


    Auto Push,

    You should at least take down the blinds if the rest of the table are playing/folding for a ticket, if your called you have the best hand PF and are in a very strong position.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    We need details on the stacks and how players have been playing. Will someone raise to 5k then everyone call the next hand but most importantly the stacks of everyone else. Picking up the blinds could be close to useless.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭Primewise


    PUSH!

    Everyone at the table sees that the UTG short stack is about to be eaten up by the blinds, so everyone expects a possible game over in 2 hands anyway.

    Big stacks are gauranteed a ticket so they will fold.
    Other Small stacks do not want to risk busting so they should be folding KK to your push in this situation
    So you have HUGE fold equity if you push. The only situation you might be called is by a player who doesnt understand how to play a satellite and who ALSO happens to pick up a monster

    Even if this happens you have at least 80% to win if called.

    If you wimp out and fold, the UTG short stack is probably 50/50 to double up or bust in the blinds. That’s a 50% chance you will turn into the shortest stack


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,533 ✭✭✭ollyk1


    There is another option.

    Offer €2k between the 6 others at the table and you take all the tickets. Then sell them.

    If they refuse push on "tilt"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭BigCityBanker


    sumoward wrote:
    BTW this inst me, I luck Boxed into a ticket as I got to final table around 4th in chips out of the 9.

    well done.

    I cant really help myself from not pushing in this spot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    sikes wrote:
    We need details on the stacks and how players have been playing. Will someone raise to 5k then everyone call the next hand but most importantly the stacks of everyone else. Picking up the blinds could be close to useless.

    Guy with AA has 10k
    I am next with 23K
    Next player has 20-25k?
    Next has 40k
    SB has 20K?
    BB has huge stack over 100K

    The play when before we got down to 7 play was very very tight.

    Big stack had bet out a few times and taken some blinds. Smallest stack had gone in on Button for all of her 3k, SB and me in BB (Blinds at 2k) mark at this stage had called her and we checked down and she trippled up with a pair.


    When we are down to seven it is no longer as loose as that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    Primewise wrote:
    If you wimp out and fold, the UTG short stack is probably 50/50 to double up or bust in the blinds. That’s a 50% chance you will turn into the shortest stack

    I think this is an interesting spot. It depends a lot on what the other stacks are: if no one has more than 20k or so then you almost certainly are not getting called and I think you have a clear push.

    If there are a couple of players with 80k stacks (unlikely) it is very close. I think it is still a push though because you will get knocked out less than 20% of the time, and if you win uncalled you go ahead of the short stack even if he doubles up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,532 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    OK hadn't seen that post. I think it is a push, obviously when the big blind calls you with 33 and knocks you out everyone will tell you how bad a play it was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,854 ✭✭✭zuutroy


    Push and type AA in the chat window ftw!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Meh if it ain't a WSOP sat or 4 figure buy in, I'm pushing.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,864 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    I got bored of waiting for cards and committed hari kari against Paddy when he had a real hand last night. He was his more normal relatively entertaining self last night.

    In this spot I probably push as I would feel worse about folding and failing to get a ticket than pushing and failing to get a ticket.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,532 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    Its a push for me. I cant see how you can fold AA here, even though shortie has m of under 2 one double up and you could be in trouble. You push and at worst you are huge favourite and are sitting pretty on 23odd k.

    I dont see how its justafiable to fold in this situation, imo sbb has 50/50 chance of going out, so you have 50/50 chance of getting a ticket if you fold, and you probably have 80% chance of getting ticket if you call, ie. if you won with your Aces you could probably sit out your way to victory even if shortie on 5k was to double up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    5starpool wrote:
    I got bored of waiting for cards and committed hari kari against Paddy when he had a real hand last night. He was his more normal relatively entertaining self last night.

    On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

    Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

    I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,854 ✭✭✭zuutroy


    If you push you're say 80% to get a caller and 80% to win against ATC.
    That gives you a 64% chance of 13k chips
    20% chance of no caller to give you 3k chips
    16% chance of busting. -10k chips

    EV= 8320+600-1600= +7320 chips.

    Too much can happen if the villain doubles up on his coin flip and you both have M's of 3 so I think you have to push now.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,864 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    sumoward wrote:
    On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

    Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

    I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.
    Ya, I was still there for that alright, so at least I know who you are now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    5starpool wrote:
    Ya, I was still there for that alright, so at least I know who you are now.


    where were you sitting?


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,864 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    That was me you were talking to at the registration desk before it started. I was seat 8, beside Vera.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    5starpool wrote:
    That was me you were talking to at the registration desk before it started. I was seat 8, beside Vera.

    Ah very good, BTW did you now that castle was the childhood home to Anne Boleyn?


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,864 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    sumoward wrote:
    Ah very good, BTW did you now that castle was the childhood home to Anne Boleyn?
    You are quite the thorough researcher aren't you? I didn't know that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭strewelpeter


    sumoward wrote:
    On a tangent, Paddy made it to the final table with a decent stack, was very aggresive and whittled away his chips.

    Earlier, just before the final table I had Paddy on my right. I was button and make a standard raise with QJs. Paddy is SB and goes "Enough of this" and goes all in for 9k. BB folds. I have a think. Its the first time I have raised in a while, I havent been stealing his blinds and its Paddy.

    I call he shows J5o and hits a 5. to double up.
    That was the hand after I got Paddy to call a raise in the BB and then fold on a raggy flop that paired a 5 for him. I think it might be what is known in some quarters as the 8 second effect ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    If you run it through ICM you'll find it's a marginal push. Your equity (in ticket terms) is currently approx 'half' a ticket. If you double up your equity goes to '75%' of a ticket. But you only double up, say, ~85% of the time on average, which equates to approx 63% of a ticket, which is better than the '50%' of a ticket you start with. [This ignores the times you just steal the blinds, which obviously adds a bit to your equity]

    Does that make sense?? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,836 ✭✭✭connie147


    I'm not folding AA here. If I've more chips,well thats a different scenario, but its very possible that the shortstack will double up next hand and then I'm the short stack. I'm pushing with the best hand,hoping the table realises I'm not pushing without a monster in the position I'm in, and if I'm called,then hopefully they hold up. But whether they do or not, I still reckon I've made the right play,so I'd have no regrets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    I think you are saying push.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭bops


    you pushed
    bb called with crap
    he hit 2 pair/straight
    he laughed
    you cried
    the shortie laughed more and went whoop whoop!!

    ul


    ...how did i do??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    bops wrote:
    you pushed
    bb called with crap
    he hit 2 pair/straight
    he laughed
    you cried
    the shortie laughed more and went whoop whoop!!

    ul


    ...how did i do??

    It wasnt me....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    If you run it through ICM you'll find it's a marginal push. Your equity (in ticket terms) is currently approx 'half' a ticket. If you double up your equity goes to '75%' of a ticket. But you only double up, say, ~85% of the time on average, which equates to approx 63% of a ticket, which is better than the '50%' of a ticket you start with. [This ignores the times you just steal the blinds, which obviously adds a bit to your equity]

    Does that make sense?? :confused:
    no, because ICM doesn't take into account that the short stack will be in the blinds next, which is a very important part of the situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    Yeah I would push here, don't think its that close. Interesting spot though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    RoundTower wrote:
    no, because ICM doesn't take into account that the short stack will be in the blinds next, which is a very important part of the situation.

    I missed that part, I thought the AA guy was the shortest stack with 10K. It's much closer so. To put figures on it, I suppose you need to estimate the chance of the shortstack being eliminated in the blinds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭strewelpeter


    IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

    This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

    This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each

    were you the Guy to the left of paddy at the Final table?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭bottom feeder


    shove the fecking thing FFS...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    If the tiny stack pushes UTG i think you should call AA there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    id push but im not sure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭eoghan104


    IMO this only gets interesting when there is a bet from another shortstack or an all in ahead of the shortstack with AA (i.e. in this particular case if Vera had shoved her microstack utg). Then it is an autofold of the AA.

    This guy was particularly unlucky, I think that if either of them had thought of it himself and the other very shortstack might have been able to come to a mutually beneficial deal for half a ticket each
    I would have thought that if Vera shoved UTG its an even better time to call no? That way the BB will also call and she has 2 hands to beat one of which being AA. To me that makes it a much easier call surley?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    I agree, it's a much clearer call if UTG pushes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    What are people views on a number of people calling with the intention to check the hand down giving the small stack next to no chance of winning ?

    In sats online this situation often happens and you see people in the chat box urging everyone at the table to call and then we all check it down and get a ticket :)

    Is this considered collusion or just part of sat play ?

    Opr


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,533 ✭✭✭ollyk1


    opr wrote:
    What are people views on a number of people calling with the intention to check the hand down giving the small stack next to no chance of winning ?

    In sats online this situation often happens and you see people in the chat box urging everyone at the table to call and then we all check it down and get a ticket :)

    Is this considered collusion or just part of sat play ?

    Opr


    If people call and nothing is said then I don't mind. If anything is said it's collusion in my book.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,532 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭sumoward


    The conclusion:

    AA goes all-in.

    It folds around to BB with a gazillion chips. He calls on the Blind.

    flop 99x

    BB shows J9:eek:

    Turn is a J.

    House of 9's and J's busting AA.

    Cruel


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,532 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    Bad Beat, but I still dont understand how this is marginal, you fold and you are not near guaranteed of a ticket, you double up and you almost are, you are 80% fave if you get a caller.
    I call every single time here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Rickyroma


    What's the etiquette regarding a shove followed by announcing that you have aces/ subtle cough...aces..cough?

    Bad form?

    I assume "accidentally" exposing your cards before anyone has had a chance to call your shove is not an option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭strewelpeter


    eoghan104 wrote:
    I would have thought that if Vera shoved UTG its an even better time to call no? That way the BB will also call and she has 2 hands to beat one of which being AA. To me that makes it a much easier call surley?

    Absolutely not!
    if the other shortstack loses you win first prize...which is the same as 6th prize ... it is then the classic case of the one time it is absoluely correct to fold Aces Pre.

    I linked to these articles in a different thread...yer man can be a bit meh but I think these two articles are very good.
    part 1
    part 2

    Yea Sumoword, thats me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭bottom feeder


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Yes, I would be of the same thinking. Wes, and others - this is not as super obvious as you would like to think. I believe pushing here is probably the right thing to do given the stack sizes - but it is marginal.
    Really - sure i dont put much taught into any hands, actually i'd shove blind here..:D :):D:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Absolutely not!
    if the other shortstack loses you win first prize...which is the same as 6th prize ... it is then the classic case of the one time it is absoluely correct to fold Aces Pre.

    I linked to these articles in a different thread...yer man can be a bit meh but I think these two articles are very good.
    part 1
    part 2

    This is a different situation to anything in those articles (I assume you're talking about the last paragraph in part 2). Folding should guarantee you a ticket, say, half the time (assuming only the big stack BB calls). It's probably worse than half the time, but anyway. The other half of the time, UTG doubles up and you're still in a bingo fight for a ticket.

    But calling the UTG AI gets you a ticket about 85% of the time on average. And the other 15% of the time you're still in with a chance, all-be-it a very small chance, of getting a ticket. I think folding AA here to a short-stacked UTG push is bad.


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