Opinions on a ruling please

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 07:22PM #1

i'm a dealer myself so i'm pretty certain of this ruling, i was playing in a club in dublin. to make a long story short: i've got QQ, raise it up and get 3 callers, flop is A 9 3, checked into me so i bet out 25 (pot is about 70) get one caller, turn is a 9, caller checks, i bet 40, he calls, river an 8, he checks, i push all in. he says nothing and turns his cards up(A 10), after a couple of seconds i muck my cards awaiting my pot, the dealer pauses and calls for a ruling, he somewhat explains the turn of events to the floor manager, who in turn allows the other guy to call my bet, my cards are mucks so he is awarded the pot!! what just happened? it was my pot as he exposed his hand before declaring his decision, a show and fold yes?

gerry87 · 28-08-2007 07:30PM

Never muck before you're awarded the pot!

It's a tricky one but i don't think him showing is the same as him folding. In a tournament i think your hand is dead if you expose it on purpose, but i'm not so sure about cash.

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 07:56PM

i did pause before mucking,thinking the dealer had seen him "fold"

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 07:58PM

His hand is not dead - it has happened loads of times and the same ruling is giving....
he has the right to call or fold but not raise(i know u were all in but in other situations had u got money behind, he could not raise...)

on a side note - u played the hand very weak....

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:03PM

thats a different situation, if he did that on the flop or turn then that rule applies, but after all betting if he exposes his hand after my bet of all in, its a fold

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 08:04PM

nope seen this in a couple of places and his cards are not dead...

goldclubcasino · 28-08-2007 08:07PM

remember johnny chan's J-9 in the WSOP '88, exposes his cards before he calls seidel's all in

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:09PM

as i stated at the start, i am a dealer and i know the rule in this situation

brianmc · 28-08-2007 08:10PM

jeffjeff wrote:

as i stated at the start, i am a dealer and i know the rule in this situation

Why'd you ask so?

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:10PM

U S rules are different, plus that was 20 years ago!!!

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:13PM

looking for opionions on the matter, i thinks its an unbelievable ruling, and i cant believe it happened in one of the biggest clubs in ireland

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 08:13PM

well heres the facts.... the ruling was giving and his cards were declared not dead, secondly this has happened to me and same ruling giving, thirdly you asked for OPINIONS and i bascially told you what ruling have been giving in previous situations...

brianmc · 28-08-2007 08:15PM

jeffjeff wrote:

looking for opionions on the matter, i thinks its an unbelievable ruling, and i cant believe it happened in one of the biggest clubs in ireland

You should put up a poll...

1. Meh...
2. Shame.
3. That's bad
4. Travesty.
5. Get the pitchforks.

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:16PM

were was this ruling given against you, whoever made it should be given a run down on the rules

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 08:21PM

same place about 6/7 months ago by a different floor person

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:21PM

if any dealer reads this can i get there opinion and inturputaion of the ruling

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 08:22PM

also - different clubs have different rules....

jeffjeff · 28-08-2007 08:23PM

i never said where this happened..... how can it be the same place? are you telepathic? What number am i thinking of?

Ste05 · 28-08-2007 08:24PM

I know jeffjeff, and he explained this situation to me and I told him to post it up, does anyone who knows the rules in the Fitz give a definitive answer.

Whatever about the hand and how it was played, on the River, the guy checks, jeffjeff pushes, and the Villain exposes his hand, therefore the question is quite simply is his hand dead at this moment according to the Fitz rules?

Ste05 · 28-08-2007 08:26PM

Also lets keep it civil please.

Ace2007 · 28-08-2007 08:26PM

i don't think jeffjeff wanted to name the place -

Ste05 · 28-08-2007 08:29PM

I told him not to, but I'll just go ahead and say it, now back on topic please everyone.

Clareman · 28-08-2007 08:30PM

Personally I think that the winning hand is the last hand taken into the muck, I would usually hand over my cards while the pot is being handed over to me, that's just me, and as I have said in other posts I'm not a big live player.

In relation to your situation, I think when it's heads up and a player is all in, the other player is entitled to turn his cards up while making a decision, personally I think this is a bad move as it's trying to gauge the other players reaction. As his hand wasn't in the muck it was live, judging my your reaction of just waiting a few seconds and then mucking he would have insta called (I would imagine).

I would ask, where did he turn up his cards, if he threw them in the direction of the pot or the muck (i.e. away from himself), then he'd be declaring them dead, if he was leaving them in front of himself, then he's still mulling his decision. Also, even though your cards were in the muck, were you able to identify them? If it was a friendly game (is there such a cash game out there?) could you have said that you would have picked out your cards without looking at them and informed someone of what they were (suits and all)? I know that's not in any rule book, but as I said it may have been a friendly game

If you were the dealer, would you have asked for a ruling or would you have immediately awarded the pot or would you have warned the player mucking his hand that his hand was still live?

Russh · 28-08-2007 09:04PM

Just wondering whats the logic behind the fact that his hand is not dead if there are more cards to come... and is dead when all cards have fallen, even though there is still betting in progress.....

In your situation, if he is to act first and exposes his cards before he acts...is his hand declared dead or can you bet into him?

I think in your situation the ruling is a bit harsh but your cards are dead and because his are face up they are still live...... (not an authority on such matters, just my opinion)

mdwexford · 28-08-2007 09:06PM

Turning your cards over is being an angle shooting tosser imo but some clubs allow it. Shouldnt be allowed anywhere imo.

Clareman · 28-08-2007 09:28PM

mdwexford wrote:

Turning your cards over is being an angle shooting tosser imo but some clubs allow it. Shouldnt be allowed anywhere imo.

I think you have summed it up perfectly there, it's 1 of these things that most players don't like, but unfortunetly it's 1 of these things that are allowed, I am 1 of these people that think that it should be remembered that it's a game, clearly as there is so much money involved that goes out the window. I think the other player played within the rules, but against the spirit of the game.

tricky D · 28-08-2007 10:03PM

Never assume you know the local rules, so never ever muck your winner before the pot is shipped. I don't want to be too harsh, but as a dealer you should be aware of this. As a dealer myself I would prevent you from mucking before the other player had mucked by holding the muck in my left hand, only making it available for the conceeding cards first. Iirc under old Fitz rules you are playing the board (not sure if this has or hasn't changed), under CHL's it's the same (99.9% sure - it's my ruling as TD everytime until otherwise instructed by Luke).

Macspower · 28-08-2007 10:12PM

Don't know the ruling but a rule I made for myself after loosing a pot stupidly by mucking..... is that I now always swap my cards for the pot... when he gives me the chips i give him my cards....

carfax · 28-08-2007 10:57PM

Different rules for different clubs.....

Luke's rules whilst in the Fitz where always that you can expose your hand at any stage of betting and still have the hand declared live (as far as I know) - i.e. Vegas rules.....Not sure what rules Luke employs at the moment though as I think he was reconsidering this a while ago.

The likes of Liam Flood and almost every other club I've played in in Ireland would declare this hand dead (the A-10) - its clearly angle shooting.

Never muck your hand before you are awarded the pot. You have no comeback or argument in cases just like this.

kryogen · 28-08-2007 11:24PM

its different almost everywhere ive played to be honest!

always have a look at the house rules before you sit down and play somewhere is my best advice!

some places will rule that his hand is dead, but others will rule that he did not announce fold and since you were heads up in the hand there was no harm....

i personally believe if you expose a card your hand is dead, cash game or tournament!

DeVore · 28-08-2007 11:36PM

GJP rules are declared before all major games. A hand disclosed to anyone other then yourself is a hand folded. His hand should be folded.

You ran a huge risk by not waiting until the pot was pushed to you to claim the pot as only a shown hand can claim a pot. Some places would split the pot, giving you back your all in before doing so, and it would be understandable to do so (though imho , wrong).

DeV.

bohsman · 29-08-2007 12:16AM

You should look for his hand to be mucked, again never ever muck your hand till the pot is awarded. As a dealer never award a pot till theres only one live hand - in this case you would ask the AT if that was a fold and then muck it.

tipp86 · 29-08-2007 01:20AM

If his hand is accidentally revealed is his hand still dead?i dont think so.It causes contorversy when it occurs.If you had not mucked your hand were you been awarded the pot due to him revealing his hand?

Ace2007 · 29-08-2007 01:32AM

tipp86 wrote:

If his hand is accidentally revealed is his hand still dead?i dont think so.It causes contorversy when it occurs.If you had not mucked your hand were you been awarded the pot due to him revealing his hand?

The guy with AT still had a decision to make and so until he did the pot would be awarded to no one

jeffjeff · 29-08-2007 03:20AM

DeVore wrote:

GJP rules are declared before all major games. A hand disclosed to anyone other then yourself is a hand folded. His hand should be folded.

DeV.

this was my understaning of the rule and ofcourse iam aware i should wait to be awarded the pot befor mucking, i thought the dealer was watching the action ,as he wasn't this seemingly routine hand turned into this series of posts

Van Dice · 29-08-2007 03:45AM

Surely someone could just read a copy of the rules from the Fitz and give a definitive answer?

opr · 29-08-2007 04:35AM

I remember playing down in Waterford. I had raised preflop with KQ and bluffed the flop and turn after it was checked to me each time with nothing. On the river the guy turns up his hand to show A high with AK and checks to me. The ruling given was that his hand was still live !!!

I mean WTF ?

Opr

RoundTower · 29-08-2007 04:35AM

hand should not be dead and you were an idiot for mucking.

opr · 29-08-2007 04:38AM

Oh and i do think his hand should be live as no more betting had to take place.

Opr

opr · 29-08-2007 04:39AM

Before someone asks why didn't i just bet the river. I did and the F^&"!*r called !!

Opr

Cuban Son · 29-08-2007 11:43AM

Van Dice wrote:

Surely someone could just read a copy of the rules from the Fitz and give a definitive answer?

There is no set of rules up in the Fitz.(Well there wasn't last time I was there:rolleyes: ).

The AT is still live until its in the muck.
I don't understand how, as a dealer, say you've mucked your cards with a player still to act and expect to claim the pot.
You as a player are responsible for your cards and your actions until the hand is over, it clearly wasn't over.
What the other player did isn't against the rules, just not in the spirit of the game.

Killme00 · 29-08-2007 12:07PM

IMHO his hand is live until it is in the muck and you cannot be awarded the pot until it is in the muck.

Also you should not muck your hand until the pot is pushed to you..ever!

sendic · 29-08-2007 12:08PM

DeVore wrote:

GJP rules are declared before all major games. A hand disclosed to anyone other then yourself is a hand folded. His hand should be folded.

You ran a huge risk by not waiting until the pot was pushed to you to claim the pot as only a shown hand can claim a pot. Some places would split the pot, giving you back your all in before doing so, and it would be understandable to do so (though imho , wrong).

DeV.

i'm a little confused. Say you had been dealing and when the guy turned his hand face up you announced it was folded and mucked his cards. does the remaining player still need to show??

Killme00 · 29-08-2007 12:08PM

dupe post

Killme00 · 29-08-2007 12:08PM

IMHO his hand is live until it is in the muck and you cannot be awarded the pot until it is in the muck.

Also every cash game player should be aware that there are some scam artist out there so you should be aware of the rules and always protect yourself ie you should not muck your hand until the pot is pushed to you..ever!

DeVore · 29-08-2007 01:48PM

sendic wrote:

i'm a little confused. Say you had been dealing and when the guy turned his hand face up you announced it was folded and mucked his cards. does the remaining player still need to show??

Sorry no, he made a bet on the river and he wasnt called. He doesnt need to show his hand in this situation. Sorry, I confused things (mostly myself) by forgetting he had moved all in on the river. Plus I was hideously drunk last night.

Once the hand is revealed without saying anything I would take it as folded(in a GJP game).
This is why Mike announces that clearly over the mic before each tournie.

DeV.

jeffjeff · 30-08-2007 06:21PM

sendic wrote:

i'm a little confused. Say you had been dealing and when the guy turned his hand face up you announced it was folded and mucked his cards. does the remaining player still need to show??

not in this situation, a bet was made so exposing his hand is declaring it dead.

jeffjeff · 30-08-2007 06:24PM

i think i'll be continuing my gaming at GJP. a club needs to have set rules and everyone should adear to them, staff inclusive. his hand was dead and it was a combination of the dealer not paying attention and a poor ruling by a very good and destinguished floor manager

sendic · 30-08-2007 06:44PM

jeffjeff wrote:

not in this situation, a bet was made so exposing his hand is declaring it dead.

it was a question for DeV re his post.

DeVore wrote:

Sorry no, he made a bet on the river and he wasnt called. He doesnt need to show his hand in this situation...

that makes sense, cheers.

jeffjeff wrote:

...a combination of the dealer not paying attention and a poor ruling ...

i apprecitate that you feel hard done by, but this smacks of sour grapes a little. the biggest mistake in the whole hand was you mucking your cards before the pot was awarded(in my opinion). Everybodys done it, I know I have. If, as a result of this incident, you never again muck a winning hand before the pot is awarded to you, then its been a cheap lesson.

califano · 30-08-2007 07:04PM

jeffjeff wrote:

after a couple of seconds i muck my cards awaiting my pot

Sounds a bit cocky to me but i like your style.

Ace2007 · 31-08-2007 03:25AM

jeffjeff wrote:

his hand was dead and it was a combination of the dealer not paying attention and a poor ruling by a very good and destinguished floor manager

clearly his hand was not dead, different clubs have different rules... which you did not know

similar the rule about one chip raise came up in JP's games - which he stated that if a player throws in a large value chip(just one chip) and says nothing(and has chips of smaller value in front of him) then it is a raise, if this happened in a casino it would be just a call.... so as you see different places use different rules,

Opinions on a ruling please

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