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Should Traditions be Respected ?

  • 10-12-2007 02:16PM
    #1
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭


    This thread is a tangent from the existing one regarding the 'Creche Nativity Play' issue.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055194751

    So how do you all feel about Traditions in Ireland, should they be Respected/Preserved ?
    Have you respected the Traditions of foreign Countries when you've visited/lived there ?

    I think there shouldn't be any PC issue about Traditions/Customs being respected / preserved in Ireland, and I absolutely respect the Traditions/Customs of any other countries I've ever visited in the past, or may visit in the future.
    Opinions please


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Binomate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Binomate


    No, they shouldn't. If traditions are offensive, like christmas, then they should be banned.


  • #3
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    I think they should be. People spend so much time worrying about offending other cultures but they seem to forget that Irish Catholics are entitled to perserve their culture also. Its as if celebrating our identity is racist in itself.


  • #4
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Nothing wrong with following tradition at all. The only thing wrong is imposing your traditions on other people e.g. non muslim women being made wear headscarves in muslim countries is not something I agree with. However there are situations where ignoring tradition can be extremely rude/unlawful (the aforementioned example). It really depends on a case to case basis and people should use their best judgement.
    Traditions should never be exempt from criticism either.


  • #5
    cance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭cance


    to be honest im in favour of any break of tradition that will stop me sitting through 45 minutes of parents coo'ing and praising their little brat.


  • #6
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    It used to be tradition in Ireland to have arranged marraiges- in some cutures they still do.

    There used to be.......etc etc

    Times change and traditions change or get lost. Big deal. Just because your grandfather did something stupid shouldn't be justification for doing something stupid.


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  • #7
    prendy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭prendy


    i think it totally depends on the tradition.
    the example of the creche is mental...in a catholic country certain traditions should be respected..
    many women mightnt agree with headscarfs in muslim countrys but thats their tradition and its important to respect it!


  • #8
    Rob_l
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    No just because its tradition does not mean it should be accepted
    what about things like female circumcision should that be accepted as a tradition?


  • #9
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Rob_l wrote: »
    what about things like female circumcision should that be accepted as a tradition?

    Yeah, that's a tough call Rob_l, but I undersnd that it's been made illegal in nearly all of the countries it's pacticed in
    (or so i'm informed by another boardsie)


  • #10
    Rob_l
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    marcsignal wrote: »
    Yeah, that's a tough call Rob_l, but I undersnd that it's been made illegal in nearly all of the countries it's pacticed in
    (or so i'm informed by another boardsie)

    legality and acceptance two different measuring sticks


  • #11
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    so we're all agreed, tradition can be good, can be bad, should be respected in some cases and shouldn't in others. it should be taken into account according to the tradition. next!


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  • #12
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Rob_l wrote: »
    legality and acceptance two different measuring sticks

    True, I don't agree with the practice personally, but don't see how I could rightfully object to it being practiced in a country where it's legal, if I was visiting, or living there.


  • #13
    Rob_l
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    bleg wrote: »
    so we're all agreed, tradition can be good, can be bad, should be respected in some cases and shouldn't in others. it should be taken into account according to the tradition. next!

    yeah lets get back to the really important topics like how many sugars you take in your tea


  • #14
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Rob_l wrote: »
    yeah lets get back to the really important topics like how many sugars you take in your tea

    again, it comes down to common sense, if you like your tea sugary put in more sugar, if you don't then don't put sugar in

    simple


    next!


  • #15
    KingOfFairview
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭KingOfFairview


    I think national tradition should always be scrutinied and questioned, we should look at our traditions, before being sure they should be kept.

    Its always going to be hard for any person to go to another country and ignore theuir traditions. I hate the idea of many traditions, Irish and foreign, but its not really my call to ignore them, at least social traditions etc, no alchohol in Iran, Kuwait (I think) etc, fluckwitted gun laws in the US...


  • #16
    The Real B-man
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,747 Mod ✭✭✭✭The Real B-man


    Lux23 wrote: »
    I think they should be. People spend so much time worrying about offending other cultures but they seem to forget that Irish Catholics are entitled to perserve their culture also. Its as if celebrating our identity is racist in itself.

    Exactly i mean if we went to there countries we would have to respect there traditions so why cant they respect ours?


  • #17
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I'm atheist but like the Angulus tradition.
    Traditions that are not against basic Human/Animal Rights (female circumcision/dog fights) should be allowed to be practised.


  • #18
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    The Real B-man wrote: »
    Exactly i mean if we went to there countries we would have to respect there traditions so why cant they respect ours?

    catholic traditions do not equate with irish traditions. some irish people may disagree with the crib in the creche too. personally i don't think there's anything wrong with exposing kids to other traditions, it gets them thinking, asking questions and generally broadens their horizons. that's how people learn. i wouldn't be offended by something as passive as a crib.

    i would however be annoyed if the creche actively imposed other traditions on kids. however i could always move them to another creche


  • #19
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    bleg wrote: »
    catholic traditions do not equate with irish traditions. some irish people may disagree with the crib in the creche too.

    actually that's not necessarily true. A lot of the Catholic traditions we have evolved out of ye old Celtic pagan ways. the religion was adapted to the culture, practically all religious holidays have a root in some old pagan tradition...
    Biko wrote:
    Traditions that are not against basic Human/Animal Rights (female circumcision/dog fights) should be allowed to be practised.

    I agree with that sentiment really... i'm not anything but some of the Catholic traditions can be comforting i guess.


  • #20
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    Just listening to the beginning of George Hook on Newstalk and he said that RTE had banned putting up a crib, didn't get to hear the piece, so if anyone hears it please post what the piece is about, if it is true and we have RTE, Aerports and Hospitals taking down what was up until the last couple of years part of the Irish tradition then its a sad sad time we live in :(


  • #21
    LoanShark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭LoanShark


    Binomate wrote: »
    No, they shouldn't. If traditions are offensive, like christmas, then they should be banned.

    What kind of a comment is this???

    If I wrote what I really want to say, I would be banned from this site and any other similar site for life....

    If a woman goes to a foreign country and it is TRADITION for her to cover herself up then she does it.. If it is Tradition for us in this country to have a nativity play each year in a school and someone complains, We have to cancel it..
    As I said if I wrote what I really want to say I would be banned,So I hope you get my drift..


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  • #22
    LoanShark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭LoanShark


    If we bend over backwards to accomadate all the other races and religons that enter our country, and give up all our traditions we will almost certainly loose our identity.


  • #23
    connundrum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,562 ✭✭✭connundrum


    LoanShark wrote: »
    What kind of a comment is this???

    I'm thinking, just thinking, that it could be a piss take comment.

    Oh and traditions where people aren't mutilated should be kept.


  • #24
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    what about the tradition of the woman staying at home, minding the kids and not being allowed to vote?

    what about the tradition of being violently angry with the british?
    what about the tradition of drinking ourselves to liver disorders?

    tradition, yaaay


  • #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SetantaL wrote: »
    It used to be tradition in Ireland to have arranged marraiges- in some cutures they still do.

    I don't think something like this is a tradition as such, rather it was a solution to a social problem at the time. Much like the rise of kidults today.

    I think we should embrace everyones decent traditions, more festivities!!


  • #26
    Pete4779
    Closed Accounts Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Pete4779


    Mordeth wrote: »
    what about the tradition of the woman staying at home, minding the kids and not being allowed to vote?

    what about the tradition of being violently angry with the british?
    what about the tradition of drinking ourselves to liver disorders?

    tradition, yaaay

    The first is still practiced, despite offending hardcore feminists. Freedom = not forcing unwanted activity on other people. Apparently Ireland ranks quite high with stay-at-home-mothers. They do have the freedom to work if they want and that's just fine.

    Being allowed to vote has changed - but it was a tradition since Roman times when women were at the bottom of society (e.g., seating in the Coliseum). That has changed and women have the freedom to vote. They can choose to or not vote.

    Now, there is not the freedom to practice traditional Christmas activities because a minority has pushed it's views on a large majority. Unlike your other examples, we now have a more restricted situation, with less freedom.

    If they didn't want a nativity play then why not simply not participate. If one of them gets a Christmas present, well, they should obviously give it back.

    Perhaps we should make sure they do not celebrate any aspect of Christmas, just in case they are offended by a christmas present. In fact, take down the decorations on the streets as well.


  • #27
    jahalpin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭jahalpin


    Christmas isn't only a Catholic holiday, it is a holiday for all CHRISTian churches and is celebrated by all of them.

    The overwhelming majority of people in this country are christian and their traditions should be respected.

    I was reading an article about atitiudes to Christmas and the vast majority of moderate muslims and hindus in the UK celebrate Christmas as well.


  • #28
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    christmas is about more than your silly little god boy


  • #29
    Lands Leaving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Lands Leaving


    Mordeth wrote: »
    christmas is about more than your silly little god boy

    Yeah, its about watching bad films and drinking.


  • #30
    therecklessone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Lux23 wrote: »
    I think they should be. People spend so much time worrying about offending other cultures but they seem to forget that Irish Catholics are entitled to perserve their culture also. Its as if celebrating our identity is racist in itself.

    I suggest Irish Catholics stop blaming other cultures and do a bit more to preserve their own...I'd start with suggesting they try attending mass a bit more often than for weddings and funerals...or try obeying the teachings of their church instead of picking and choosing what they want to obey.


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  • #31
    therecklessone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    LoanShark wrote: »
    If a woman goes to a foreign country and it is TRADITION for her to cover herself up then she does it.. If it is Tradition for us in this country to have a nativity play each year in a school and someone complains, We have to cancel it..
    As I said if I wrote what I really want to say I would be banned,So I hope you get my drift..

    I do.

    Are you suggesting we should force people to conform to the religious practises of the majority church in the country? If so I've no problem (as an agnostic) telling you to stuff your fcuking nativity play, thank you very much. If you want to celebrate your religion, then see the above post re. the correct place to do so...in one of your many churches.


  • #32
    LoanShark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭LoanShark


    Originally Posted By therecklessone

    Are you suggesting we should force people to conform to the religious practises of the majority church in the country?

    Yes. They Are In Our Country....I would follow the Traditions and
    Practices of another country if I was in that position..

    If so I've no problem (as an agnostic) telling you to stuff your fcuking nativity play, thank you very much.

    Thats it, that is the only arguement you can offer!! You (in my opnion) Mock others for having a belief, Because you might just be so perfect that you dont need to have guidance in your life.

    If you want to celebrate your religion, then see the above post re. the correct place to do so...in one of your many churches

    Is it wrong to celebrate the birth of Christ???

    I accept that the church through a few, has recieved very bad press and that prople have turned away for it as a result.
    But, Is it wrong for many others to want to still express their belief? To show others that we are proud to do so.?

    And I know that others have said about female mutation as being a tradition in their countries,But we live in a different society..


  • #33
    Blush_01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,016 ✭✭✭Blush_01


    therecklessone, if you have a problem with religious celebration in such a mild manner as that of a nativity play in schools which both physically belong to and are substantially funded by religious orders, then perhaps you're in the wrong place. Having attended a roman catholic primary and secondary school, I have no problem whatsoever considering a nativity play in the light in which most of the children who take part see it - a chance to get out of formal classes and have a bit of fun, performing for their parents and friends, and celebrating Christmas. Now I don't mean that in a bible-thumping manner, most children see it as the lead up to Santa Claus, and I don't see a problem in that either, they're children and religion should be something they learn about without it being shoved down their throats. But if someone is entitled to complain about, for example, a crib being displayed in a public place or a nativity play taking place in a school, and as a result have it removed or cancelled, then surely others are allowed to complain about its absence, and have it reinstated. Why should we bend the few parts of our culture that aren't completely crap out of shape because it puts someone's nose out of joint when it is such an innocuous tradition? Santa Claus was originally a religious figure, should he be shelved worldwide in favour of those who have a problem with the Catholic faith?

    I think it's a disgrace. If anything multi-cultural elements could be worked into our traditions rather than completely abolishing our culture in favour of others. We just don't have the stones to support our own culture in favour of whatever we're told to do by others. I think that's a big, steamy pile of ****e, to be honest.


  • #34
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    I think it's ironic that the Irish Traditions we're takling about here, are under attack from, what I assume are, Irish people posting.
    Most of them are suggesting it's better to leave things, regarding the nativity play, and such like, to individual parents, to teach their kids.

    IMO, the Christmas message, just as an example, is about goodwill to your fellow man/woman. The problem is, every individuals definition of goodwill may be different. For example, an inner city kid, who may have been brought up in an atmosphere of violence, theft, alcohol & drug abuse, will have different values, and understanding of goodwill, to, say, a kid from a stable, wealthy home in Foxrock.

    Things like the nativity, and the basic message it sends, can be understood by all sections of society. The perfect example of this is the old 1950'5/60's recordings 'Give up your auld Sins' released by RTE over the last few years, at Christmas.
    On the CD inner city kids are heard reciting their understanding of the Christmas story, and IMO if that helps them live their lives guided by a set of values, that are the same values learned by kids in more affluent parts of the country, then thats's not a bad thing, because it may prevent predjuice, and misperceptions about each other, when they're older.


  • #35
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Moonbaby wrote: »
    I don't think something like this is a tradition as such, rather it was a solution to a social problem at the time.
    Thats the thing though, most traditions came about for good reasons at the time. Various warnings against eating different types of food in the bible, for example, are probably based on health issues of the day. Since many christians see the bible as the word of god, we have a problem today. Its like a boil water notice in the paper was found by some primitive tribe and made part of their testament.

    Where the problem arises is when traditions become an end in themselves, when people say "well it was important to my great grandfather, and although I don't know why, what was good enough for him is good enough for me". Thats when you should just step back and ask whether or not it serves any purpose any longer, and is it worth keeping it up.

    Other traditions, such as christmas, are founded on much older traditions, and have very little to do with the birth of the christian christ, except insofar as they have been hijacked by the church to get more money.


  • #36
    daveharnett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    I'd refer you to this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055198615

    Apparently it's aboriginal tradition to gang rape little girls (seriously). I'd be tempted to invoke the ancient white man's tradition of murdering aborigines in this case.


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  • #37
    Kipperhell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭Kipperhell


    Rob_l wrote: »
    No just because its tradition does not mean it should be accepted
    what about things like female circumcision should that be accepted as a tradition?

    I actually think male circumcision is the same kind of abuse. It has none to little medical basis.

    Christmas is a high jacked tradition to start with as is most things to do with it. Santa is a bastardisation of a non Christian god. In the Netherlands (I think it there could be Lapland) his elf is a black child but that story gets altered to be PC now. The Italians believe in a Christmas witch give presents out. This has also been Christianised.

    So any Christian belief is super imposed on traditions. There was a religion very similar to Jesus followers but only for men and one similar to Mary worship for woman. The Roman emperor bans both yet has a new religion that seems to gather these together. Unity through religion.

    Tradition is never really as stable or as old as people claim.

    I think people should really consider what the birth of Jesus is about.

    A young girl (13ish) is married to a old man (60ish) after she becomes pregnant. The church elders tell the old man to marry her as she was such a good girl who went to the church everyday to pray. She has a baby and three weirdos believe that the future is determined by the movement of the stars give her gifts.

    I don't think people who are pro tradition would think that is right but that is the tradition I don't support.


  • #38
    therecklessone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    LoanShark wrote: »
    Originally Posted By therecklessone

    Are you suggesting we should force people to conform to the religious practises of the majority church in the country?

    Yes. They Are In Our Country....I would follow the Traditions and
    Practices of another country if I was in that position..

    So in Saudi Arabia you would pray to Mecca five times a day? In Israel you would circumcise your son? Yeah right...
    LoanShark wrote: »
    If so I've no problem (as an agnostic) telling you to stuff your fcuking nativity play, thank you very much.

    Thats it, that is the only arguement you can offer!! You (in my opnion) Mock others for having a belief, Because you might just be so perfect that you dont need to have guidance in your life.

    I'm not mocking anyone for their religious beliefs, I'm mocking people who think it right to force their beliefs on me. You are perfectly free to practise your religion, just don't force me or my children (should I choose to have them) to participate. My life isn't perfect, but I do my best. Thanks for the vote of confidence though.
    LoanShark wrote: »
    If you want to celebrate your religion, then see the above post re. the correct place to do so...in one of your many churches

    Is it wrong to celebrate the birth of Christ???

    Absolutely not. It is wrong to force others to do so though.


  • #39
    therecklessone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Blush_01 wrote: »
    therecklessone, if you have a problem with religious celebration in such a mild manner as that of a nativity play in schools which both physically belong to and are substantially funded by religious orders, then perhaps you're in the wrong place.

    Born in Ireland to Irish parents, as they were, as were their grandparents etc etc.

    I don't need your approval to belong here. :mad:

    I have no problem with religious institutions celebrating the fundamental tenets of their belief system. I have a problem with the education system of this country being left to the administration of religious orders, but then we are all guilty of allowing that to happen.

    I believe this debate was sparked by the decision of a creche to cancel their nativity play, a creche which is ultimately a business, not a religious order. I fail to see why the children of non-Christians should be expected to participate in a religious play by a business. Would you accept a childminder teaching your children about a religion that you do not believe in?

    Article 44 of Bunreach na hEireann states Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.. I take that to mean I am free to not practise any organised religion.


  • #40
    HollyB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    bleg wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with following tradition at all. The only thing wrong is imposing your traditions on other people e.g. non muslim women being made wear headscarves in muslim countries is not something I agree with.

    Honestly, my feeling would be that if I was travelling to a Muslim country where I knew that all women, Muslim or not, were legally obliged to wear headscarves or that my refusal to wear one was likely to cause serious offence, I should either wear the headscarf or not go to the country. It may not be a part of my beliefs, but it would be the height of arrogance for me to deliberately thumb my nose at their laws and beliefs while I was a guest in their country.


  • #41
    HollyB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    therecklessone wrote: »
    I fail to see why the children of non-Christians should be expected to participate in a religious play by a business.

    On the flip side of the coin, should the children of Christians be denied the opportunity to take part in the play simply because the parents of other children did not want their children appearing in the play?

    If the play could be put on with only the children whose parents were willing to allow them to take part while alternative activities were arranged for the other children, do you think that they should be allowed to put on the play? Nobody would be forcing the non-Christians to participate, or even to watch the play.
    therecklessone wrote: »
    Article 44 of Bunreach na hEireann states Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.. I take that to mean I am free to not practise any organised religion.

    Precisely. However, it does not entitle you to prevent somebody else from practicing their religion simply because you do not agree with it.

    I don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day. Should the parades be cancelled and the decorations banned for fear of offending me? Should all shops, amenities, schools, offices, etc, be forced to stay open for my benefit?


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  • #42
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    It is possible that the creche's decision was not solely due to pressure from non christians but also because no one that works there was really that arsed about putting in the work it takes to do it well, and to do it badly makes everyone involved look like a tool.
    Its a business, run it like a business. NO foul
    On other traditions, like Santa in his coca-cola uniform, and all of the rest of the ****e, Well, feel free not to bother.
    Yes a family christmas dinner is a good celebration during a sh1tty time of the year, presents are nice, But the fact that it puts families and children under pressure to put on a face is sick.
    Many other traditions are a littled bit dated in this country, when was the last time you were at a proper wake, where everyone got sh1t faced and the oul wans spent their time shreiking ????
    When was the last time you kissed the bishops ring ???
    Candle in the window christmas eve ?
    Making a May Altar ?
    Flowers on the doorstep on the first day of spring ???
    Keeping holy the sabbath day ???? HAH

    These are a few of the large list of irish customs and generations that have died out in just 3 generations. Yes the traditions should be recorded and respected, but not necessarily practiced..
    That should keep everyone happy !


  • #43
    therecklessone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    HollyB wrote: »
    On the flip side of the coin, should the children of Christians be denied the opportunity to take part in the play simply because the parents of other children did not want their children appearing in the play?

    I would question the right of the creche to put on a nativity play in the first place...have they stated to prospective customers that the creche would follow a Christian ethos? Did they make clear to all of their new customers that they would put on a nativity play as part of their Christmas celebrations? Did they canvass customer opinion before deciding to do so?
    HollyB wrote: »
    If the play could be put on with only the children whose parents were willing to allow them to take part while alternative activities were arranged for the other children, do you think that they should be allowed to put on the play? Nobody would be forcing the non-Christians to participate, or even to watch the play.

    As a person who spent eight years in school with the children of an atheist neighbour who were teased unmercifully (often ignorantly referred to as pagans) I would prefer that children were not separated by religion at any point during their time in a creche, but if the creche were to make adequate arrangements to accomodate the non-Christian children then it would be an acceptable compromise. Of course, the only people who should have a say in such a compromise are the parents of children attending any such creche. By the way, teling the parents of non-Christian children to keep their kids out on the day of the performance is not an adequate arrangement.

    HollyB wrote: »
    Precisely. However, it does not entitle you to prevent somebody else from practicing their religion simply because you do not agree with it.

    I'm not aware of anyone being prevented from practising their religion...the parents of Christian children are free to arrange a nativity play of their own? They could always try the rather obvious route of bringing their children to a church and explaining the significance of Christmas there? I know the local church back home always had a crib, and both of my parents took me to see it during the Christmas period when I was a kid.

    You know, there's nothing to stop a person opening a creche with a clearly stated Christian ethos. Maybe some of the Daily Mail "it's a disgrace" types should pick that ball up and run with it.


  • #44
    Romero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭Romero


    Just to add to this I was listening to Kevin Myers on the George Hook show on Newstalk he was on about RTE not carrying the Viratas ad for selling Cribs, and said what a lot of us have said which is its part of the Irish tradition and that most of the immigrants don't mind it as they are all Europeans with a christian background, he also spoke about the UK experience on bending over backwards in not offending other ethnic groups by outlawing Christmas in some cities (Birmingham he mentioned) and that it looks like Ireland are heading down the same road. He said most immigrants don't mind our traditions and they are not offended, but he said as in the UK, if you keep going on about offending them, then they will get it into their head that it is offensive and it will cause cultural divides in society. As one Texter to the show said what next the outlawing of Saint Patricks day? Looks like we are heading down that road :(
    By the way most texters are in agreement with Mr Myers on this issue. And I for one agree with him!


  • #45
    HollyB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    Romero wrote: »
    Just to add to this I was listening to Kevin Myers on the George Hook show on Newstalk he was on about RTE not carrying the Viratas ad for selling Cribs, and said what a lot of us have said which is its part of the Irish tradition and that most of the immigrants don't mind it as they are all Europeans with a christian background, he also spoke about the UK experience on bending over backwards in not offending other ethnic groups by outlawing Christmas in some cities (Birmingham he mentioned) and that it looks like Ireland are heading down the same road. He said most immigrants don't mind our traditions and they are not offended, but he said as in the UK, if you keep going on about offending them, then they will get it into their head that it is offensive and it will cause cultural divides in society. As one Texter to the show said what next the outlawing of Saint Patricks day? Looks like we are heading down that road :(
    By the way most texters are in agreement with Mr Myers on this issue. And I for one agree with him!

    Very easily. Once you start down that road, it is very difficult to stop or to turn back.

    Personally, I think that if somebody chooses to come to a country where they know that the majority of the population are Christian (officially, at any rate) and where Christian holidays are celebrated, they have no business complaining about Christian holidays. I'm not saying that when in Rome, they should have to do as the Romans do - if they don't want to celebrate Christmas themselves, they don't have to - but they don't have the right to demand that the Romans change to accommodate them.

    If they genuinely cannot tolerate the celebration of Christmas/Easter/St. Patrick's Day, etc, there are countries which do not celebrate those holidays.


  • #46
    Romero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭Romero


    Was watching BBC NI version of Question Time called Let's talk and it had the topic of Christian traditions on it, George Hook was one of the panalists, you can watch it online discussion starts 52 minutes in. I could only get the realplayer version to work not sure whats up with the media player one

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/tv/programmes/letstalk/index.shtml


  • #47
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    hollyb, romero... as a fellow Roman let me assure you. I want your christian bull**** taken out of the public square as much as the next muslim, jew, dirty black foreign bastard, polish, whatever.


  • #48
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I think tradition should be respected, of course, but I think there is a world of difference between expecting a secular & mixed society to accept traditions & forcing/expecting public services to carry on the traditions - especially since there are so many Irish people who don't want or like many Irish traditions.

    People are more than capable of having traditions in their homes, churches, etc - I'm not sure why there has been such a fuss surrounding a private business not wanting to cling on to non-secular tradition....:confused:


  • #49
    ArthurDent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 915 ✭✭✭ArthurDent


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I think tradition should be respected, of course, but I think there is a world of difference between expecting a secular & mixed society to accept traditions & forcing/expecting public services to carry on the traditions - especially since there are so many Irish people who don't want or like many Irish traditions.

    People are more than capable of having traditions in their homes, churches, etc - I'm not sure why there has been such a fuss surrounding a private business not wanting to cling on to non-secular tradition....:confused:

    same here


  • #50
    Kipperhell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭Kipperhell


    Romero wrote: »
    As one Texter to the show said what next the outlawing of Saint Patricks day? Looks like we are heading down that road :(

    Quite a stupid and flippant remark as Saint Patrick day is not really a day about being Catholic/Christian and is now a day about being Irish. Even the god awful "Flight of the Doves" recognises that and that is at least 30 years old.


  • #51
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    Mordeth wrote: »
    hollyb, romero... as a fellow Roman let me assure you. I want your christian bull**** taken out of the public square as much as the next muslim, jew, dirty black foreign bastard, polish, whatever.


    Sounds like a broken record, but few can match for ignorant insults.:mad:


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