Gig shots - pissed off

sineadw · 12-01-2008 11:26am #1

:mad:

Ok ***general warning*** - I'm in a bad mood...

So I went to the new Stompin Ground venue last night in the Button Factory. Its the first time I've had the camera in my hands in months now and I really enjoyed the shoot. As usual though I'm massively disappointed with the results. I had the nifty 50 and the Sigma 28-70 (which never made it onto the camera), shooting at 1.8, 1600iso all through so as usual the images are grainy as feck, the ones that aren't blurred beyond belief that is. I was hovering around the 60/sec all the time... I was talking to another guy there, using a 5D i think with a sigma 70-200 and he was shooting at 800. What the hell am I doing wrong

Does that have IS? Does IS make that much difference??

So I'm thinking of buying a cheap-ass flash. All your hard earned tax dollars which pay for my student grants have to be spent! I'm sick of missing everything, or having half the image blown out and the other half in deep shadow. Any suggestions on that or any front would be greatly appreciated.

Shots are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/sineadw/sets/72157603694268286/ if anyone wants to see what I mean. I know I could have done a lot more work to them (high pass springs to mind immediately) but I just spent hours trying to (badly) clone and burn a stupid big white blanket I didn't notice at the time out of the stage. See - bad mood.

Oh and happy new year everyone. Been swamped with assignments and haven't been on.

Sebzy · 12-01-2008 11:35am

Have a read through this
http://kt.mikt.net/serendipity/index.php?/archives/63-Best-quality-pictures-with-the-Olympus-e-510-Part-III-ISO.html

I know it's for the E510 but they all do the exact same thing.

Fajitas! · 12-01-2008 11:38am

Were you underexposing?

I'd be underexposing by a stop to a stop and a half in some venues. Maybe more, depending on the light.

thebaz · 12-01-2008 11:42am

pissed off and in a bad mood -- thats unlike you !! --

i like the drum shot

ThOnda · 12-01-2008 11:44am

Well, I have seen you pictures and they are not bad. But what could you expect from such a venue? Lights pointing almost against you, dark, dark and once more dark...
By the way, have you seen the pictures from that 5D? They shouldn't be much different than yours, just a much less noise.
It is also question of experience, when to press the trigger. You are looking for time without any motion. And also manual mode on camera could help you. Measure for the lights and let background to be black (blue) as hell. Nobody cares about background, unless there is big light ruining the whole picture.

So don't be bothered by such details. The pictures are good and they show you the way to make even better pictures next time!

mikeanywhere · 12-01-2008 12:02pm

Fajitas! wrote: »

Were you underexposing?

I'd be underexposing by a stop to a stop and a half in some venues. Maybe more, depending on the light.

I'd agree with Al on this especially with that light as there was enough if it. A bit late too but next time try shooting in manual too as that way you would have more control on shutter speed too.

I like some of the shots too so well done for what is there anyway!!!

pete4130 · 12-01-2008 12:20pm

I know from reading that the 5D handles noise very well. I don't know what your shooting with (I'll take a guess and say it's not a 5D?). You camera can't handle noise as well as the 5D, so even though the guy with the 5D was shooting at 800 ISO, he could probably get away with underexposing a bit more than you and still come away with less noise.

I know shooting at 1600 on my D200 the noise was awful if there were lots of dark areas that were underexposed, especially at gigs. Sometimes the only option is to convert to mono to disguise the noise a bit but I think that would be wasted on your gig shots at The Button Factory. You've got such vibrant & bright colours in them it would be a Shame to lose them.

Again it is a timing thing. If the lighting is constantly changing it's always a good idea to time shots with an explosion of light if you can manage to anticipate it. Easier said than done though!

If you do buy a cheapo flash, get a cheapo cord to go with it too. Thats how I used to use flash at gigs. It help to make the flash look less like on camera flash and you can get some more dramatic shadows too. When I was shooting 35mm at gigs I used my light meter to check the exposure of my flash and use that aperture when I decided to shoot with the flash.

It's hard shooting longer lenses at gigs too. I used to use super wide (15mm) and fisheye at gigs and get as close as I could....less to worry about focussing issues and camera shake!

Anyway, Personally I think you got some nice shots!

Ricky91t · 12-01-2008 4:16pm

On her exif data on flickr shes shooting with a 350D...

I use the sigma ef 500 dg super its really good
Dont know where you'd get one though

Ebay maybe

kensutz · 12-01-2008 4:18pm

Ricky, the use of a flash in most gigs is a big NO! There was a thread about this only a while ago.

quilmore · 12-01-2008 4:40pm

sometimes I have to play the statistical game
if only 5% of the pictures have a chance to be sharp I don't take 3 pictures of every shot, I take 50 or 60
I usually end up with over a 1000's of pictures if it's a difficult shooting

IS or VR won't help when your subjects are moving, it only works (and it does very well) to still subjects
in your case your best choice could have been a 50mm f/1.4 I'd say

Ricky91t · 12-01-2008 5:00pm

kensutz wrote: »

Ricky, the use of a flash in most gigs is a big NO! There was a thread about this only a while ago.

Yeah i kno but she mentioned a flash so i thought id give her details on a good flash

RCNPhotos · 12-01-2008 5:19pm

Can't see anything major wrong with them, other then the lights, but that's nothign ot do with you. Purple lights and stuff, ugh. If you're using a 50 1.8 though you shouldn't need to go up to 1600, I've never shot over 800 at a gig (that I can remember), otherwise the grain just becomes too much

sineadw · 12-01-2008 6:46pm

Hmmm... underexpose you say.... That makes so much sense I'm tempted to slap my forehead here. Thanks for all the feedback guys. I hate it when I load up a card and its all ****e. I'm gonna try that at 800 next time.

I think it might well have also been that I hadn't had the camera in m hands in two months. I need to get my practice up.

Yeah I'd usually do a few B&W conversions, if not all, with images like that but the colours were so vivid.

On the flash front - it was more bounced flash for a song or so maybe - with the bands permission - that I was thinking of. Just to hedge my bets. Read new thread...

Fajitas! · 12-01-2008 6:57pm

Yep, defo underexpose. Otherwise the camera's gonna want to expose all the shadows up there.

If the band don't have a problem, flash works, just try get it off camera.

sineadw · 12-01-2008 7:01pm

Ah now you tell me with the off camera! I'm not spending any more money! What exactly do I need? Sigh... scuttles off to ebay...

Fajitas! · 12-01-2008 7:04pm

Just a cheap off camera cord should do you grand...or if you want to spend 50 quid, have a look at cactus triggers...

ThOnda · 13-01-2008 12:04am

I've recently bought Cactus wireless remote for flash and it is just fantastic thing. I can't wait to have my film developed. Price isn't too high and if you can work with flash in a little more simple way (no E-TTL), it'll do the job. But you'll need an assistant at the gigs :-)

RCNPhotos · 13-01-2008 3:51am

For lights liek that, that destroy detail (red being the main piece of...) I found a custom white balance worked well for me. I put up some shots a while back with it, and their on my flickr. It's worth trying that too. I think it might save me a lot of frustration in the future

sineadw · 13-01-2008 9:01am

RCNPhotos wrote: »

For lights liek that, that destroy detail (red being the main piece of...) I found a custom white balance worked well for me. I put up some shots a while back with it, and their on my flickr. It's worth trying that too. I think it might save me a lot of frustration in the future

Do you mean in-camera or in the raw converter?

RCNPhotos · 13-01-2008 12:07pm

In camera I used it. Get a shot with lots of say red light in it, go into the menu>custom WB>pick the shot with all the red. Works a treat, made the lights a nice green. A guy Enda Doran told me bout it (Enda if you're reading, cause I know you float around, cheers). He said it can make the grain go quite high but I never noticed.

Oriel · 14-01-2008 9:31am

Nevermind ISO, your composition and post-processing leaves a lot to be desired.
Also, in 90% of cases, using a flash completely ruins a gig shot.

TelePaul · 14-01-2008 9:41am

Oriel wrote: »

Nevermind ISO, your composition and post-processing leaves a lot to be desired.
Also, in 90% of cases, using a flash completely ruins a gig shot.

Oriel if I post a gig shot you actually like it'll be the highest praise I have ever got. I think we should all strive to achieve this. Seriosuly though, why so disgruntled?

Rojo · 14-01-2008 10:13am

I wouldn't mind Oriel being grumpy if he was say Anton Corbijn...

Calina · 14-01-2008 10:19am

Oriel wrote: »

Nevermind ISO, your composition and post-processing leaves a lot to be desired.

See, this is where I occasionally have a problem with your contributions. This is NOT constructive criticism.

Constructive would be to highlight where she's going wrong here. As composition can be slightly subjective, fine...but on the post processing front it would be more constructive to say why it leaves a lot to be desired.

sineadw · 14-01-2008 11:21am

I did say the post-processing was crap actually - I know that already, ta

TelePaul · 14-01-2008 12:47pm

Calina wrote: »

See, this is where I occasionally have a problem with your contributions. This is NOT constructive criticism.

Constructive would be to highlight where she's going wrong here. As composition can be slightly subjective, fine...but on the post processing front it would be more constructive to say why it leaves a lot to be desired.

Yeah but that wouldn't make him Oriel. It's gotten to the point where his grumblings have become endearing. Like this fella:

RCNPhotos · 14-01-2008 1:53pm

OSCAR!!!!! (Is that how you spell it???)

P.S: Paul you ****, that Stroh kicked my ass last night, I feel so rotten. I'm in a total state thanks to you.

Paulw · 14-01-2008 1:56pm

TelePaul wrote: »

Yeah but that wouldn't make him Oriel. It's gotten to the point where his grumblings have become endearing. Like this fella:

Are you comparing Oriel to a muppet???

That's a bit unfair. :eek:

TelePaul · 14-01-2008 2:13pm

Paulw wrote: »

Are you comparing Oriel to a muppet???

That's a bit unfair. :eek:

Wait were sesame street puppets or muppets?

Paulw · 14-01-2008 2:24pm

"Sesame Street is well known for its Muppet characters created by Jim Henson."

They qualify as muppets.

440Hz · 14-01-2008 2:29pm

Paulw wrote: »

Are you comparing Oriel to a muppet???

:eek:

Subtle as ever Paul!

TelePaul wrote: »

Wait were sesame street puppets or muppets?

Muppet I think. But in reality Sesame Street were neither, no strings or hands in dodgy places, therefore not puppets. They were people in costumes, right? So muppet would be the closest match I reckon!

Also, cut Oscar some slack, what did he ever do to you guys? Cuddly little green fellow that he is.

Paulw · 14-01-2008 2:32pm

440Hz wrote: »

Muppet I think. But in reality Sesame Street were neither, no strings or hands in dodgy places, therefore not puppets. They were people in costumes, right? So muppet would be the closest match I reckon!

Some were costumes, like BigBird, but some were genuine muppets, like Oscar.

RCNPhotos · 14-01-2008 3:03pm

Can a mod please move this to the Muppet forum, thank you.

iamnothim · 14-01-2008 3:59pm

Dont spend money on a flash for shooting at gigs. Super bad call. If your gonna buy anything, upgrade your 1.8 to a 1.4. I got one recently and I'm very happy with the results. That also said, judging by your shots, the lights just weren't in your favour that night.

Nice tip on the custom WB too, gonna have to try that one out. I hate red light gigs - very depressing to shoot, I usually flip in to B&W. I've always been a fan of Endas stuff

Fajitas! · 14-01-2008 5:36pm

I'd say experiment with flash tbh.

I've gotten good results out of it - Even Steve agrees with that

mikeanywhere · 14-01-2008 6:06pm

Fajitas! wrote: »

Even Steve agrees with that

Easy tiger, people would think you werent talking about the same person!!

sineadw · 14-01-2008 7:09pm

The 1.4 is high on the shopping list alright. Would it make that much difference though? I was drooling over it in Conns.

I think another problem might be the metering of the 350? As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) spot would give a much more accurate reading in situations like that? I'm finding myself having more and more excuses to go for a 5D maybe some time later in the year.. The iso quality apart from anything. Seb - I didn't know high ISO clipped the dynamic range so drastically - thanks for that link by the way. Forgot to say that...

I can't see Oscar

The Muppets rock

ThOnda · 14-01-2008 7:54pm

Spot metering or manual mode and histogram.
What beauty it was shooting concerts on film - I never knew what to expect :-)

King Eric · 14-01-2008 10:49pm

Im not sure about getting a 50mm 1.4 I think for a similar amount of money, id be investing in an 85mm 1.8. Its beautiful for portraits and a lovely shallow depth of field, its longer than the 50mm. plus its nice and small so your not shoving a big lens in your subject's face. Its deadly for gigs especially for shots of drummers. It's long enough to get a nice shot in tbmc, also the place on dame st. with a nice new porch. I called it my students 70-200 2.8, ive gotten a lovely white baby since but i still find myself using the 85mm. If you see me at a gig, say hello and ill give you a shot of it. The 1.4 would be nice but i think the 85mm would give you more options.

I think the flash would be a good investment too. it gives you options and will let you get shots you don't have a hope of getting otherwise. You'll want to figure out a way of getting it off the camera and mess around with it a lot.
I really don't like the complete anti-flash at gigs attitude around here. Used properly flash is your best friend, its just so powerful and sometimes a bitch to control properly. Im gonna start a new thread to discuss it properly.

oh and finally Custom white balance totally rawks

Enda

www.endadoran.com

RCNPhotos · 14-01-2008 11:29pm

It does enda, cheers for that by the way, saved my ass in the voodoo

iamnothim · 16-01-2008 2:05pm

didn't know you'd bought a 70-200. man, you used to be cool, now your just another photographer with better gear than me!

on a side note, sineadw - if you want to borrow my f/1.4 to try it out in comparison to a 1.8 you can. pick a dublin gig, preferably in whelans and i'll bring it along

Gig shots - pissed off

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