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Fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times

  • 28-01-2008 07:11PM
    #1
    DonJose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭


    Looks like all the pro hunting forums are linking to the fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times to get a yes vote,

    http://www.ireland.com/head2head/


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    DonJose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭DonJose


    I've voted YES to ban fox hunting, I don't want to see those cruel fox hunters using this poll to justify fox hunting.


  • #3
    Weidii
    Closed Accounts Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Weidii


    Thanks for the notification


  • #4
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Posting in multiple fora for attention is frowned upon, and diverts attention from the issue. The thread getting a debate going is in the Hunting forum, here


  • #5
    DonJose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭DonJose


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Posting in multiple fora for attention is frowned upon, and diverts attention from the issue. The thread getting a debate going is in the Hunting forum, here

    The pro hunters had a good run in on early voting, I'm happy that I could put this subject in front of neutral people. I have not been on that forum much but to see the following pictures nearly made me physically sick. Even neanderthals killed for food, not "sport".

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54769066&postcount=404


  • #6
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Darlin', if they voted on it, they're not neutral, it's kinda the point.

    Mm, would you rather countless gamebirds, small animals and livestock were killed rather than the vermin, whose numbers are on the increase constantly?

    It's a lot of dead things, which is shocking to people who don't understand what a sterling display of pest control it is, but if you read on the forum, as you should, as I'm sure you don't want to make a decision in ignorance, you will quickly be educated on the need for vermin control.


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  • #7
    tallus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭tallus


    There's no need to be condescending about it Itwasn't me.
    We are entitled to talk/debate about foxhunting here if we want to. I agree with DonJose.


  • #8
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,555 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    As i say, ppl that dont know the facts of some thing are always the loudest with an opinion.


  • #9
    stevoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Darlin', if they voted on it, they're not neutral, it's kinda the point.

    Mm, would you rather countless gamebirds, small animals and livestock were killed rather than the vermin, whose numbers are on the increase constantly?

    It's a lot of dead things, which is shocking to people who don't understand what a sterling display of pest control it is, but if you read on the forum, as you should, as I'm sure you don't want to make a decision in ignorance, you will quickly be educated on the need for vermin control.

    I dont think don "ace ventura" jose has an answer to that one.....
    i dont think he really knows what he's talking about, the poor oul divil. ;)


  • #10
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    tallus wrote: »
    There's no need to be condescending about it Itwasn't me.
    We are entitled to talk/debate about foxhunting here if we want to. I agree with DonJose.

    Condescension aside, I don't like the "heartless monsters" attitude adopted by those trying to make hunters feel bad for their sport. If it's not condescending, I don't know what is, and I'm less than appreciative of ignorant, ill-informed opinions which can harm my sport.


  • #11
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Condescension aside, I don't like the "heartless monsters" attitude adopted by those trying to make hunters feel bad for their sport. If it's not condescending, I don't know what is, and I'm less than appreciative of ignorant, ill-informed opinions which can harm my sport.

    Ahh ...there ...you see, that's the real issue:

    SPORT


    according to Wikipedia:
    Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors.

    I can see that there may be a need to control the population of foxes, I can also see that it is fun to gallop on horseback through difficult terrain with a group of likeminded people.

    What I can't agree with though is that it is "fun" or "sport" to witness the fox run down to exhaustion and in the end killed and torn to pieces by dogs ..."natural" as that may be.

    What's wrong with killing the foxes humanely and having a drag hunt instead?


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  • #12
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    It all contributes to vermin control. Also, what's the wikipedia definition got to do with anything? It certainly doesn't disqualify any aspect of hunting from classification as a sport. If anything, it reaffirms it.

    Also, the fox is killed humanely. Dogs break the neck of their intended kill as a priority, to minimise danger to themselves.


  • #13
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    The wikipedia definition?

    Well as I see it the only "competitors" in the "sport" of fox hunting are the dogs and the fox. One of these parties either wins or loses.

    You self professed "sports" men and women who chase after the competitors on horseback are not partaking in the sport ...you're just the audience.

    So, for the hunters, the "sport" is the chase through the countryside ...that could easily be accomplished without the cruelty of having an animal stressed and most likely killed, couldn't it? :D


    And if you really wanted to "control" vermin (and not just use this as weak justification for your so called "sport"), you'd "control" it in a way that would make sure of the result and not leave it to dogs who could just as easily loose the fox.


  • #14
    MsFifers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MsFifers


    I don't know why the pro-hunting people are bothering to argue with anyone here - you can hardly expect to be love-bombed! Neither will you change anyone's mind by telling anyone who is anti-hunting that they are ignorant.

    I'm fully familiar with the facts, and am still against it - and I do recognise that a lot of emotive language is used - ON BOTH SIDES - which isn't helpful to the debate.

    I believe it is immoral to hunt as a sport. Yes, I recognise the need for vermin control and I have no problem with that. Yes, I know animals eat other animals - I have no problem with that either.

    I do have a problem with killing animals for the craic.

    Those on-line polls are useless anyway - everyone knows they are easily manipulated by a campaign.


  • #15
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Also, the fox is killed humanely. Dogs break the neck of their intended kill as a priority, to minimise danger to themselves.

    Ahh yes, thanks for that ...

    Not only are you expecting the fox to be stressed and most likely killed, you also knowlingy factor the odd injured dog into the calculations, just so that you "sports" men and women can have a fun day out.
    (never mind the odd horse that mightn't make that difficult jump)

    Sorry ...but to my mind that just boils down to one thing on the bottom line and that's animal cruelty.

    Plain and simple ....and unjustifiable


  • #16
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Most likely? About one in ten hunts ends in a dead fox, some significantly less. And no, I wasn't factoring in injured dogs, I was pointing out the hunting technique employed by dogs, with the view to pointing out that the fox dies quickly.

    Should only people who don't enjoy hunting and killing animals be allowed do it? Should hunters stop taking pride in good riding skill, talented manipulation of a hunt and pack of hounds, presence of mind, or, on the other side, excellent shooting?


  • #17
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Most likely? About one in ten hunts ends in a dead fox, some significantly less.

    So much for "vermin control" then, eyh ? :p:p:p
    Should hunters stop taking pride in good riding skill, talented manipulation of a hunt and pack of hounds, presence of mind, or, on the other side, excellent shooting?

    All sorts of equestrian sports cover good riding skills
    You can manipulate/organise people on a daily basis if you like and you could take your dogs to agility or obedience trials if that's what you're after.
    As for shooting ...there's always the shooting range and target practice.


    ...all things you can take pride in and that don't (usually) involve animal cruelty


  • #18
    MsFifers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MsFifers


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Should only people who don't enjoy xxxxxxxx killing animals be allowed do it?

    Yes.


  • #19
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    peasant wrote: »
    So much for "vermin control" then, eyh ? :p:p:p



    All sorts of equestrian sports cover good riding skills
    You can manipulate/organise people on a daily basis if you like and you could take your dogs to agility or obedience trials if that's what you're after.
    As for shooting ...there's always the shooting range and target practice.


    ...all things you can take pride in and that don't (usually) involve animal cruelty

    It contributes to effective vermin control, albeit a small part of it. For every fox killed by dogs, hundreds are shot every week. Some want to hunt, and should be allowed. Shooting couldn't be more humane in terms of a kill, and the pride is in the effectiveness. No paper target will ever match it. Sure, you can do all the other things separately as you say, but nobody will enjoy it half as much.
    MsFifers wrote: »
    Yes.

    Good luck with that. Who's going to do it if people who aren't interested in making a good practice of it aren't? If someone's doesn't want to do it, why should they? And if someone doesn't want to do it, and this is the dangerous part, they're not likely to spend hours practising drilling holes through paper to make sure they're an effective killer when the time comes.


  • #20
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    It contributes to effective vermin control, albeit a small part of it. For every fox killed by dogs, hundreds are shot every week.

    Thank you!

    End of debate ...you've just proven (and conceded to) the point that foxhunting (the dog-pack/horseback version) is pointless.

    It can therefore be classified as what it is ...an act of needless animal cruelty that should be banned.


    I rest my case.


    :D:D:D:D:D


  • #21
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    peasant wrote: »

    What I can't agree with though is that it is "fun" or "sport" to witness the fox run down to exhaustion and in the end killed and torn to pieces by dogs ..."natural" as that may be.

    What's wrong with killing the foxes humanely and having a drag hunt instead?

    Peasant, the hounds persuing the quarry are way up front while the majority of the field are way back. So its not about watching a fox that has already been killed been eaten by the hounds. If a rider is upfront they get to watch the hunt staff work the hounds which there is a lot of skill involved in. A hunt will chase more than one fox as they are very smart buggers who use all sort of tricks to get away

    Whats wrong with having fox hunting as well as shooting them?.


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  • #22
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Whats wrong with having fox hunting as well as shooting them?.

    A lot of people have a problem with the end result and the nature of the death of the fox. Ever see a terrier man at work? Its not pleasant.


  • #23
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Digging of earths is entirely separate to the sport of mounted fox hunting, and is a purely practical exercise.


  • #24
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Whats wrong with having fox hunting as well as shooting them?.

    If a good shooter kills a fox, the fox will never hear the shot that killed it.
    That is humane vermin control.

    Being chased by lots and lots of dogs to exhaustion and possibly death is cruelty.

    Simple as that.


    But it gets compounded by the fact that this is done needlessly and for entertainment/enjoyment ...that's just plain wrong.


  • #25
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    peasant wrote: »
    Thank you!

    End of debate ...you've just proven (and conceded to) the point that foxhunting (the dog-pack/horseback version) is pointless.

    It can therefore be classified as what it is ...an act of needless animal cruelty that should be banned.


    I rest my case.


    :D:D:D:D:D

    No, I did no such thing. I said it's a contributing part of vermin control, and since the allegations of mindless cruelty are false, why should it be stopped? There has to be a reason other than the delicate sensibilities of people who don't inform themselves of the facts of the matter.


  • #26
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Digging of earths is entirely separate to the sport of mounted fox hunting, and is a purely practical exercise.

    After drinking some brandy, chasing it for miles in silly costumes? Really practical. The Fox Hunt I know have a terrier man. His dogs go to ground with the help of his shovel at the end of some hunts. The fox doesn't have a hope at this stage.


  • #27
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    No, I did no such thing. I said it's a contributing part of vermin control

    Rentakil have a new uniform, red blazer and a buggle!


  • #28
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    No, I did no such thing. I said it's a contributing part of vermin control, and since the allegations of mindless cruelty are false, why should it be stopped? There has to be a reason other than the delicate sensibilities of people who don't inform themselves of the facts of the matter.


    Keep up with the discussion, will ya...

    Other than a nice social get-together your main argument for foxhunting (the horseback variety) was vermin control. You then admitted that only one in ten (or less) foxhunts result in a dead fox ...so as vermin control it is a pointless excercise.

    But even if the fox isn't killed it gets chased by a pack of its mortal enemies, putting it under severe stress. Knowingly inflicting severe stress on an animal to my mind is CRUELTY.

    So ..foxhunting is ineffective AND cruel.

    I'd say ban it.


    got it now?


  • #29
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Nope. Didn't know any hunts performed digs at the end, but if they do, what's the problem? I mean, it makes it a more effective form of vermin control.

    The thing is, nature isn't nice. Old foxes die because they can't move as fast, their teeth aren't much use, and they die of starvation. Hunts don't allow this to happen, as they will generally only catch old and sick foxes.

    In a hunt, the fox has a chance to get away, but if it doesn't, you complain. A rifle doesn't leave the fox much chance either.


  • #30
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    I'll repeat my question from earlier:
    peasant wrote: »
    What's wrong with killing the foxes humanely and having a drag hunt instead?


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  • #31
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    But the foxes are killed humanely, so what's wrong with leaving things as are? :) It's those opposed who have to justify it to have it banned, so I'm not the one on the stand here.


  • #32
    MsFifers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MsFifers


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Who's going to do it if people who aren't interested in making a good practice of it aren't? If someone's doesn't want to do it, why should they?

    Forestry service and farmers may have a professional interest in culling animals - but I've never heard one say they actually enjoy the process (not including hunters). There are people who have an interest in honing skills to do the job as quickly and humanely as possible - not stringing it out for as long as possible on a cross-country chase ruining crops and property while they are at it.

    Lots of people practice on non-animal targets perfectly contentedly.

    The vermin-control argument is completely fallacious.

    btw - I passed a recently completed hunt on Sunday - everyone in the pub while the horses were locked in their boxes for hours. Wonder if they were sticking to the drink-driving limits...


  • #33
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote:
    But the foxes are killed humanely


    tsk ...

    peasant wrote: »
    If a good shooter kills a fox, the fox will never hear the shot that killed it.
    That is humane vermin control.

    Being chased by lots and lots of dogs to exhaustion and possibly death is cruelty.

    Simple as that.


    But it gets compounded by the fact that this is done needlessly and for entertainment/enjoyment ...that's just plain wrong.

    once again ...what's wrong with shooting foxes (if needs be) and have a nice non-cruel drag hunt instead ?


  • #34
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Nope. Didn't know any hunts performed digs at the end, but if they do, what's the problem? I mean, it makes it a more effective form of vermin control.

    Well... they do. It's horrible and slow, you wouldn't wish that sort of end on any animal. Its far from humane.


  • #35
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    MsFifers wrote: »
    Forestry service and farmers may have a professional interest in culling animals - but I've never heard one say they actually enjoy the process (not including hunters). There are people who have an interest in honing skills to do the job as quickly and humanely as possible - not stringing it out for as long as possible on a cross-country chase ruining crops and property while they are at it.

    Lots of people practice on non-animal targets perfectly contentedly.

    The vermin-control argument is completely fallacious.

    btw - I passed a recently completed hunt on Sunday - everyone in the pub while the horses were locked in their boxes for hours. Wonder if they were sticking to the drink-driving limits...

    The vermin control element is a perfectly valid reason to continue.

    Hunts should not trespass on lands they are not allowed use, and this needs to be discouraged. It gives the whole field a bad name. however, many farmers allow hunts to cross their land.

    I shoot target rifle myself, and it's great fun, and extraordinarily challenging, but it's just not a comparable sport. so many elements are so vastly different. It's like telling someone they should stop playing rugby, that it hurts other people and that golf is the game they should be playing.
    peasant wrote: »
    tsk ...




    once again ...what's wrong with shooting foxes (if needs be) and have a nice non-cruel drag hunt instead ?

    Nothing wrong with it. It happens anyway. The hunt is going to continue until someone puts forward a very good reason it shouldn't.
    lightening wrote: »
    Well... they do. It's horrible and slow, you wouldn't wish that sort of end on any animal. Its far from humane.

    In most digs, to my knowledge, the fox is dug out and shot, no?


  • #36
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    In most digs, to my knowledge, the fox is dug out and shot, no?

    Dragged out by terriers in a lot of cases and torn apart by the hounds and terriers (as a reward to keep them keen) to the hurrah's of the horsepeople.


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  • #37
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I'll need very clear evidence before I give that any credence, I'm afraid.


  • #38
    MsFifers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MsFifers


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    I shoot target rifle myself, and it's great fun, and extraordinarily challenging, but it's just not a comparable sport. so many elements are so vastly different. It's like telling someone they should stop playing rugby, that it hurts other people and that golf is the game they should be playing.

    I wasn't suggesting that target rifle is comparable to a fox hunt. I was responding to your suggestion that no one would have the skills to cull foxes humanely if it wasn't for hunting.

    I know you wouldn't ENJOY target rifle in the same way as you do hunting. That is the whole basis of the problem. Those of us who are against hunting - don't care whether or not you ENJOY yourself.


  • #39
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    So, if I enjoy shooting foxes, and realise I'm doing the natural environment a service, I should stop, because I take pride in it and enjoy it?


  • #40
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    If you don't care about the pretty horrific and completely unnecessary end for a fox, spare a thought for the hounds then. Most fox hounds can live until about 13/14, but they're only useful for hunting up to about 6 after that a lot of them are destroyed, not to mention the hounds that are lost or hit by cars or trampled or killed from the kick of a horse.
    I spent a season hunting in my youth-because I was too into horses and too stupid to know any better, and I'm telling you know, watching a poor muddied exhausted animal fighting for its life then torn asunder by hounds is not sport.
    If you want to keep vermin under control kill them swiftly and painlessly. Hunting is nothing more than a social gathering of people who pretend to love animals while being as cruel as possible to them.
    If you want you can google my name and add fox hunting to it, have a little look at how cruel this 'sport' really is. There is not a single reason drag hunts cannot be organised, indeed drags are actually more entertaining as you get a good run out, good jumping and not have to spend a good deal of time flushing. There's no reason to abandon riding to hounds, but likewise in this day and age there is equally no reason to be cruel for the sake of entertainment.
    Fatmammycat


  • #41
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    I'll need very clear evidence before I give that any credence, I'm afraid.

    BBC News...

    "The court also heard that the clerk could only find details of two other prosecutions in Britain brought under the ban in Scotland and Chester.

    Both had been more serious cases, as a terrier had been used to kill the fox."


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  • #42
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    And one more thing, if you hunt for food and use what you kill I would salute you, but for 'sport' nope.


  • #43
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    I'll need very clear evidence before I give that any credence, I'm afraid.

    just have a look at the foxhunting video on this page:
    http://www.banbloodsports.com/


  • #44
    MsFifers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MsFifers


    Your arguments to date that a fox hunt is doing the natural environment a service have not held up - see anyone posted in opposition to you above.

    If you enjoy killing an animal, just for the sake of killing then yes you should stop. Bad karma man!

    Anyway - I recognise that you will not change your mind and I am wasting time debating with you - so good luck with the ruthlessness - I better get back to work.:)


  • #45
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    peasant wrote: »
    just have a look at the foxhunting video on this page:
    http://www.banbloodsports.com/

    Please don't insult me by playing the ICABS card. I really hope it's beneath you to ally yourself to those lowlives.


  • #46
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    Well it is Video footage of a fox hunt, you cant argue with that!

    What about the BBC? They don't have an agenda.


  • #47
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I still have to say, that is not standard practice and you cannot judge the many on the actions of the few. Standard is for the fox to be dug out of the earth and shot.


  • #48
    Vegeta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    You see the problem I have here is that folks in the likes of ICABS are against all types of hunting and I cannot see why they don't put their efforts in to something actually worth the rounds they go to.

    How about commercial chicken or pig farming? Potential cruelty on a massive scale yet there isn't half the noise about that as their is about fox hunting.

    How many foxes a week are killed by means of hounds versus the normal farm animals living in shocking conditions.

    Waste of resources I say.


  • #49
    lightening
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    I still have to say, that is not standard practice

    ah come on...


  • #50
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    What? It's not.


  • #51
    peasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Please don't insult me by playing the ICABS card. I really hope it's beneath you to ally yourself to those lowlives.

    I'm not allied with anyone ...you asked for proof, there you have it.


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