Interview with Francis Collins...

kelly1 · 04-04-2008 03:58PM #1

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

adamd164 · 04-04-2008 04:04PM

What I've always hated about Collins is the way he just declares god to be beyond science. I call that defeatest.

Playboy · 04-04-2008 04:20PM

adamd164 wrote: »

What I've always hated about Collins is the way he just declares god to be beyond science. I call that defeatest.

:rolleyes:

Pompey Magnus · 04-04-2008 04:39PM

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

As for his belief that because people do deeds which puts their life at risk this must mean there is more than genes at play but rather something devine, I would suggest he read The Selfish Gene where Dawkins easily explains the benefits for such actions.

Dades · 04-04-2008 04:48PM

Ah, good for Collins.

Though I was hoping for more of a tangible explanation of his conversion. It sounds like he is (and was always subliminally) into the whole concept of a benevolent designer, and went with the local variation when he decided to believe.

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

JimiTime · 04-04-2008 05:02PM

Cheers for that Noel. really enjoyed it. Gives me hope in the worlds 'wise' men after all.

2Scoops · 04-04-2008 05:19PM

Dades wrote: »

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

adamd164 · 04-04-2008 07:33PM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

Yes, in three layers after the trinity.:rolleyes: A great scientist, but of questionable common sense to say the least.

adamd164 · 04-04-2008 07:35PM

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

Yes, that's a good point. You'll usually find that it's the religious who employ such arguments."Newton was a religious fanatic..." -- so what? What the hell does it prove? That you cannot think for yourself, but need to follow the lead of someone you perceive to be more intelligent?

How sad.

adamd164 · 04-04-2008 07:39PM

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up. Few decades back, they were controlling the country, no one would dare question them. They're reduced to trying to convince us of their arguments by linking interviews with scientists and using reductio ad absurdum logic to demonstrate that Darwinism = social tyranny.

FAO atheists: hold your heads up and smile! Promising times indeed. Cheers noel; brightened up my day, this has.

Red Hand · 04-04-2008 08:29PM

Dades wrote: »

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

Designer brands are always popular amongst some people. Think John Rocha-would you walk down the street in something he designed? I wouldn't (nor would I pay for it either). But plenty do...

Er, wrong forum!:p:pac:

JimiTime · 04-04-2008 09:19PM

adamd164 wrote: »

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up. Few decades back, they were controlling the country, no one would dare question them. They're reduced to trying to convince us of their arguments by linking interviews with scientists and using reductio ad absurdum logic to demonstrate that Darwinism = social tyranny.

FAO atheists: hold your heads up and smile! Promising times indeed. Cheers noel; brightened up my day, this has.

I'd say there are a hell of alot of religious, especially the intitutions themselves, running scared. An informed faithful Christian will know however, that all of this must come to pass before the day of judgement. So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times. The rise of atheism, enhances faith and strengthens the heart of the faithful. For it glorifies God to those that know him. He once again shows that if he said it, it will come to pass.

iUseVi · 04-04-2008 09:30PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd say there are a hell of alot of religious, especially the intitutions themselves, running scared. An informed faithful Christian will know however, that all of this must come to pass before the day of judgement. So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times. The rise of atheism, enhances faith and strengthens the heart of the faithful. For it glorifies God to those that know him. He once again shows that if he said it, it will come to pass.

Christians of every era have thought they are witnessing the "end of days".

-The apocalypse has been predicted in these years:
247, 365, 500, 848, 992, 1184, 1290, 1335, 1524, 1603, 1716, 1763, 1792, 1805, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1878, 1910, 1914, 1936, 1945, 1952, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and many more!

See this site for more comprehensive lists.
http://www.abhota.info/index.htm

The Christians I know have been banging on about this for at least the last 10 years in my memory, even making "prophecies" of "the coming" in 2 years time etc... Needless to say it never happened.

However, the evidence suggests that this enthusiasm is misplaced. To begin with, the events that Jesus lists as signifying the beginning of the tribulation period, including "wars and rumors of wars... famines, pestilences and earthquakes" (Matthew 24:6-7) are far too unspecific to serve as signs. All of these things have been occurring continuously for the entire span of human history.

From here:
http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/2000years.html

Verses such as this:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28

-should worry you I should think. It is not the only verse that clearly implies that "the coming" would be in the life time of some of those that were around when the text was written.

Tim Robbins · 04-04-2008 09:52PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

I am shocked that a Scientist would have intellectual respect for CS Lewis.
Mere Christianity is full of sloppy logic and glaring fallacies.
There is strong data to suggest that Chimps have a moral framework similar to are own, based on empathy and altruism. There are also plenty of evolutionary reasons for morality, we don't need the G man to explain it.

Very suprised seeing Collins come out with this.

Although, I do notice that Scientists that claim to be Christian seem to know very little about Philosophy, I wonder would Collins fit into that camp.

Again the morality thing was refuted by Plato, that's before Christianity even got going.

JimiTime · 04-04-2008 09:59PM

iUseVi wrote: »

Christians of every era have thought they are witnessing the "end of days".

-The apocalypse has been predicted in these years:
247, 365, 500, 848, 992, 1184, 1290, 1335, 1524, 1603, 1716, 1763, 1792, 1805, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1878, 1910, 1914, 1936, 1945, 1952, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and many more!

See this site for more comprehensive lists.
http://www.abhota.info/index.htm

The Christians I know have been banging on about this for at least the last 10 years in my memory, even making "prophecies" of "the coming" in 2 years time etc... Needless to say it never happened.

And people are still making predictions. Just misinformed, decievers, stupid or something else. It will be as a thief in the night is what we are told. Hardly makes sense if we knew the hour the thief was coming now would it! Showing what some profesing christians did/said etc, doesn't really prove anything to me.

Zombrex · 04-04-2008 11:03PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

It does, though possibly not for the reason you would hope

From the interview Collins strikes me as more of an agnostic who decided later in life that it would be nicer if God existed.

He seemed to have a level of self loathing that I think often brings people towards "spirituality", as a way of correcting and bringing back into control areas of their lives they are not happy with.

People who are searching for what a religious person might call "higher answers" will find that religious such as Christianity appear to offer them. This can be very inviting for some people.

His interview is rather telling. He claims he didn't believe in God, but also claims that this made him a not very nice fellow. He claims he didn't want to go searching for God, but for some reason he was talking to priests and reading C.S Lewis (I agree with Tim, I'm not sure how anyone considers Mere Christianity convincing in any regard, particularly the moral law bit.).

He claims he wanted to reject all this, but those claims ring rather hollow. He seems to have had no intellectual bases for atheism at all (which is why agnostic is probably more appropriate) and he seemed to have had a large hole in his life that religion offered to fill.

pH · 05-04-2008 12:29AM

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

Because the debate has moved on (at least for most theists debating this). It's not about whether God exists or not, it's now about which is the cleverer, smarter, more intelligent thing to believe - theism or atheism.

I guess in the past believers where happy that there were some clearly delusional folks out there who didn't believe in God. However now (some) atheists are saying "Not only don't we believe in god, but anyone who does is a prize idiot". Lists of so called smart people who believe in God are the theist's means of rebutting this - "We're not dumb - look at all these brainy folks who believe"

It's a subtle distinction but the debate has turned this way, it's even more pronounced when the philosophers join in - the *sole* purpose of any of their posts being to prove how smart they are, whichever side of the fence (or even on it) they sit.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-04-2008 02:01AM

was just reading hitchens 'god is not great' and I was laughing a bit at his insistance that there were religious people who were actually waiting, desiring, for the end times. No one would be that crazy I said to myself.

wow jimi... wow.

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 09:57AM

Mordeth wrote: »

was just reading hitchens 'god is not great' and I was laughing a bit at his insistance that there were religious people who were actually waiting, desiring, for the end times. No one would be that crazy I said to myself.

wow jimi... wow.

Nice way to misrepresent there mordeth! You make it sound like I'm here with my AK47 or something. Its simple, seeing things prophesised starting to come into being is a cause for delight, for as i said, it Glorifies God to the faithful. Thats not like, 'oh i can't wait'. I merely pointed out that Adams point about religious folk running scared about the rise of Atheism is not something that the faithful would be anxious about as it is inevitable that it will. Your misrepresentation does raise a great point though. There are those who wait anxiously for gods appointed time. This is certainly not wise, as those who do are suceptible to the crackpots who start mentioning dates and telling folk to 'prepare' etc. To the faithful, life goes on, we're not anxiously waiting, but calmly getting on with life. With me, its simply, looking about and knowing that these things must happen. While everyone is in a tizzy about Global warming, I reason that its probably the beginning of the earths 'Pangs of distress' as Jesus told us of. I see the rise of the 'wisdom' of man and the idiocising of belief in God to be yet another step. Again, rather than running scared, as I said, It just strenthens my faith.

Nice try though. Its an awful pity that you equated what I said to the doomsday waiters though. I'm sure there are so many others like yourself just waiting the pounce on anything to claim it as proof of our 'delusion' or 'wackiness'. Ah well.
.....Now wheres me bullets.

adamd164 · 05-04-2008 10:25AM

You see, Jimi, if every theist was like yourself, happy to let atheism spread, safe in the knowledge that the faithful will get their dues, and not trying to indoctrinate kids in schools, there'd be no problems. Unfortunately, you seem to be in a significant minority.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-04-2008 10:47AM

misrepresent?
you're looking forward to armageddon.

you are looking forward to the destruction of the planet and the eternal damnation of a good chunk of the human race. Bullets or no, that's all kinds of ****ed up.

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 10:57AM

Mordeth wrote: »

misrepresent?
you're looking forward to armageddon.

you are looking forward to the destruction of the planet and the eternal damnation of a good chunk of the human race. Bullets or no, that's all kinds of ****ed up.

LOL. Ok mordeth, Ok.

iUseVi · 05-04-2008 11:14AM

Since we are talking about armageddon, what distresses me is the fact that some christians are so convinced that it is coming soon. They think they are freed from responisbility and things like "recycling" and "clean energy" are pointless. After all God is just gonna create a new heaven and a new earth right!?
Of course Jimi you would never have disrespect for Gods creation in this way, but there are so many that do! I think it actually has a real impact on the environment! Of course there are atheists who also don't give a f*** about the planet, but the christians reasons are seriously f***ed up.

Zillah · 05-04-2008 11:42AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Cheers for that Noel. really enjoyed it. Gives me hope in the worlds 'wise' men after all.

*smacks forehead*

Dades · 05-04-2008 12:53PM

adamd164 wrote: »

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up.

Then what are all the heathens on the Christianity up to?!

Pompey Magnus · 05-04-2008 01:27PM

JimiTime wrote: »

And people are still making predictions. Just misinformed, decievers, stupid or something else. It will be as a thief in the night is what we are told. Hardly makes sense if we knew the hour the thief was coming now would it! Showing what some profesing christians did/said etc, doesn't really prove anything to me.

I laugh when I see people making predictions about the end of the world. Even Jesus pointed out that he didn't know when the world would end, Jesus is God and even he was ignorant of the end so for some Christians to claim to have worked it out is a pretty ambitious claim.

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 02:14PM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Even Jesus pointed out that he didn't know when the world would end, so for some Christians to claim to have worked it out is a pretty ambitious claim.

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 02:15PM

Zillah wrote: »

*smacks forehead*

Not hard enough:D

iUseVi · 05-04-2008 02:19PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

That's a very healthy attitude Jimi, compared to most Christians I know.:D

adamd164 · 05-04-2008 05:27PM

Dades wrote: »

Then what are all the heathens on the Christianity up to?!

My only point is that not so long ago, the religious wouldn't need to justify themselves to us. I'm not saying atheists don't go on there too.

Zombrex · 05-04-2008 06:31PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

JimiTime wrote:

So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times.

You must be busy though with all the rejoicing of the beginning of the end ...

I'm probably not supposed to, but I do take quiet comfort though playing a small part in the oncoming Armageddon

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 08:08PM

iUseVi wrote: »

That's a very healthy attitude Jimi, compared to most Christians I know.:D

Seriously? With most Christians i know, we'd talk about these things, but would never be hung up on it. Looking at certain aspects of how the world is changing, does tend to build us up tbh. As I mentioned, it is something I would rejoice in, but it would not be boggin' me down or making me anxious, and that goes for alot of the Christians i know. Maybe the Christians you know are jehovahs Witnesses or something? They love a good Armageddon story, and have made their share of end of world predictions.

estebancambias · 05-04-2008 08:15PM

Things like energy conservation are a waste of time. I'm here now, so if I want to leave my laptop on all day downloading movies....legally(I actually do) then I'll do that. Anyway, they are talking about how 'our climate is getting worse'' what is worse? Worse for who? Was GTA around 13,000 years ago? Its nature, the climate will change by itself. We *might* speed up the process but it will happen anyway.

estebancambias · 05-04-2008 08:16PM

I think some of Boards Atheist think they are living in the Bible belt.:rolleyes:

JimiTime · 05-04-2008 08:20PM

iUseVi wrote: »

Since we are talking about armageddon, what distresses me is the fact that some christians are so convinced that it is coming soon. They think they are freed from responisbility and things like "recycling" and "clean energy" are pointless. After all God is just gonna create a new heaven and a new earth right!?
Of course Jimi you would never have disrespect for Gods creation in this way, but there are so many that do! I think it actually has a real impact on the environment! Of course there are atheists who also don't give a f*** about the planet, but the christians reasons are seriously f***ed up.

I appreciate the vote of confidence there iUseVi. I indeed think its not wise to have such an attitude. Unfortunately I've witnessed the attitude you mention.

2Scoops · 05-04-2008 08:20PM

estebancambias wrote: »

Things like energy conversation are a waste of time. I'm here now, so if I want to leave my laptop on all day downloading movies....legally(I actually do) then I'll do that. Anyway, they are talking about how 'our climate is getting worse'' what is worse? Worse for who? Was GTA around 13,000 years ago? Its nature, the climate will change by itself. We *might* speed up the process but it will happen anyway.

The 'selfish gene' in action - but Collins said it's bunk. :pac:

Ekancone · 05-04-2008 08:29PM

estebancambias wrote: »

Things like energy conversation are a waste of time.

What about prolonging finite resources? Saving money on the energy bills?

estebancambias · 05-04-2008 08:31PM

What? I cleary said conversation. Have you ever had a good chat about energy?

iUseVi · 05-04-2008 08:32PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Seriously? With most Christians i know, we'd talk about these things, but would never be hung up on it. Looking at certain aspects of how the world is changing, does tend to build us up tbh. As I mentioned, it is something I would rejoice in, but it would not be boggin' me down or making me anxious, and that goes for alot of the Christians i know. Maybe the Christians you know are jehovahs Witnesses or something? They love a good Armageddon story, and have made their share of end of world predictions.

They would go under the name of Assemblies of God. Don't know if that means they believe anything particularly wacky compared to other denominations.

Jimi, I don't know if you are Catholic or something else? But like I say the Christians I have had contact with seem to be licking their lips everytime there is an earthquake or war.

Quote from Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" (excellent book by the way)

Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen — the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves — socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency. The book you are about to read is my response to this emergency...

Yes I AM aware that we don't live in the bible belt of America, I just happen to know a of few of the wacky ones perhaps.
Still Christianity is a global thing. If so many Americans think this, I don't see why Irish Christians would think something entirely different.

Ekancone · 05-04-2008 08:36PM

estebancambias wrote: »

What? I cleary said conversation. Have you ever had a good chat about energy?

Oops, I thought you said conservation!

Who is Cleary?

Zombrex · 05-04-2008 09:59PM

estebancambias wrote: »

I think some of Boards Atheist think they are living in the Bible belt.:rolleyes:

What would ever give us that impression ....

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-04-2008 10:04PM

estebancambias wrote: »

Things like energy conservation are a waste of time. I'm here now, so if I want to leave my laptop on all day downloading movies....legally(I actually do) then I'll do that. Anyway, they are talking about how 'our climate is getting worse'' what is worse? Worse for who? Was GTA around 13,000 years ago? Its nature, the climate will change by itself. We *might* speed up the process but it will happen anyway.

no.. you didn't

estebancambias · 05-04-2008 11:46PM

Oh Mordeth, I did.

Tim Robbins · 06-04-2008 09:10AM

JimiTime wrote: »

And people are still making predictions. Just misinformed, decievers, stupid or something else. It will be as a thief in the night is what we are told. Hardly makes sense if we knew the hour the thief was coming now would it! Showing what some profesing christians did/said etc, doesn't really prove anything to me.

They could be liars, lunatics or another lord!

Tim_Murphy · 06-04-2008 09:32PM

Francis Collins interview on Point of Inquiry:
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/dr_francis_collins_the_language_of_god/

I thought he'd have stronger arguments than he actually had. His book is called "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief" but in his podcast at least his reasons for believe seem to be based on anything but science.

Fanny Cradock · 06-04-2008 11:00PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

his reasons for believe seem to be based on anything but science.

In his book he admits that logic and reason could only take him so far in his belief - or so I remember.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

Depeche Mode, I do find it odd that an atheist feels let down by the manner of his epiphany. Would you have preferred a different method?

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

Obsessed, eh? You seem to be fond of hyperbole. It is glaringly obvious that atheist are also guilty guilty of presenting their own adherents as a type of proof. Your criticism is a non-objective generalisation.

kelly1 · 07-04-2008 08:35AM

And I thought this thread had got no replies because I got no email notification. Will read the replies now.

Zombrex · 07-04-2008 11:17AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

In his book he admits that logic and reason could only take him so far in his belief - or so I remember.

This is quite common. Logic and reason often don't give the answers we want, and in that case some people prefer to embrace something comforting.

Dades · 07-04-2008 02:47PM

kelly1 wrote: »

And I thought this thread had got no replies because I got no email notification. Will read the replies now.

One of your threads? No replies? As if!

Pompey Magnus · 07-04-2008 03:34PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Depeche Mode, I do find it odd that an atheist feels let down by the manner of his epiphany. Would you have preferred a different method?

What disappoints me is the banal manner of this conversion to Christianity. If this was the case that he saw a three branched waterfall and decided Christianity is true bacause of it seems to me to be bizaare reasoning. Why did he not decide that this was a sign that the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Siva and Vishnu was true? Why not the three stages of Ra? Maybe the trinity of Osiris, Isis and Horus? Perhaps it was the Babylonian trinity of Anu, Bel and Ea who decided to freeze the waterfall.

It strikes me as a man who was desperate to believe and inevitably found a reason, albiet a very weak one, to justify to himself why he should believe.

kelly1 · 07-04-2008 04:03PM

adamd164 wrote: »

What I've always hated about Collins is the way he just declares god to be beyond science. I call that defeatest.

I call that realistic. Science is limited to the natural world and that's the great thing about religion. Science has no competence to go beyond the natural into the supernatural.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

In the interviews I read and listened to, he never mentioned this. What would God have to do with a frozen waterfall anyway?

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

As for his belief that because people do deeds which puts their life at risk this must mean there is more than genes at play but rather something devine, I would suggest he read The Selfish Gene where Dawkins easily explains the benefits for such actions.

Should have been called the Unselfish Gene in that case!

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

His belief in God is no more special than the belief of someone who's poor and ignorant. What I like about Collins is his argument that there isn't necessarily a conflict between science and religion as you would hear from Mr. Dawkins who calls faith a virus and the root of all evil. He also brings rationality to the debate, something you don't hear very much of from creationists.

adamd164 wrote: »

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up. Few decades back, they were controlling the country, no one would dare question them. They're reduced to trying to convince us of their arguments by linking interviews with scientists and using reductio ad absurdum logic to demonstrate that Darwinism = social tyranny.

I'm not running scared and I'm not forcing my opinion down anyone's neck. My main motive for debating here is my concern for the salvation of souls. I'm not stirring up anything, only encouraging people to look outside the box (i.e. look beyond the natural world).

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am shocked that a Scientist would have intellectual respect for CS Lewis.
Mere Christianity is full of sloppy logic and glaring fallacies.
There is strong data to suggest that Chimps have a moral framework similar to are own, based on empathy and altruism. There are also plenty of evolutionary reasons for morality, we don't need the G man to explain it.

Apart from his possibly weak argument about the source of morality, what other glaring falacies have you come across? I imagine that self-sacrifice for the good of another probably goes against the evolutionary trend?

Wicknight wrote: »

From the interview Collins strikes me as more of an agnostic who decided later in life that it would be nicer if God existed.

He made it clear that he became an atheist, just as you did.

Wicknight wrote: »

He seemed to have a level of self loathing that I think often brings people towards "spirituality", as a way of correcting and bringing back into control areas of their lives they are not happy with.

He began to loath his arrogance and I find that quite healthy.

Wicknight wrote: »

His interview is rather telling. He claims he didn't believe in God, but also claims that this made him a not very nice fellow. He claims he didn't want to go searching for God, but for some reason he was talking to priests and reading C.S Lewis

He claims he wanted to reject all this, but those claims ring rather hollow. He seems to have had no intellectual bases for atheism at all (which is why agnostic is probably more appropriate) and he seemed to have had a large hole in his life that religion offered to fill.

Collins wrote:

As I began to ask a few questions of those people, I realized something very fundamental: I had made a decision to reject any faith view of the world without ever really knowing what it was that I had rejected. And that worried me. As a scientist, you're not supposed to make decisions without the data. It was pretty clear I hadn't done any data collecting here about what these faiths stood for.

I happen to believe that much of atheism is based on ignorance and misunderstandings. It's quite understandable that someone could become an atheist when they see the kinds of things that are done in the name of religion and God. Extremism and fundamentalism only drives people away from God.

Interview with Francis Collins...

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