Hip movement through impact

Swinging Looney · 27-04-2008 06:59PM #1

I know I asked this question here last year, but I thought I'd revisit it again!!

I have found recently that my swing feels a little more natural and develops a little more power if I consciously try to push off my right foot through impact and try to complete my follow through standing upright on my left foot. When I say more power, it would probably be more correct to say that I can achieve decent distance without the same feeling of exerted effort than before. Since I am not forcing my swing therefore, I seem to be getting a little more accuracy.

So, the question is, how much do you normally "move" through the ball at impact? During my normal swing my hips and torso would finish in a similar position to that at address. With this "push off the right foot" feeling, my hips and torso finish more towards the target than before.

I intend to get a lesson this week anyway and work towards solving some of my problems if my local pro is free, but I was just interested to see what the rest of you think. Is lateral hip movement through impact a no-no??

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 07:56AM

Swinging Looney wrote: »

So, the question is, how much do you normally "move" through the ball at impact? During my normal swing my hips and torso would finish in a similar position to that at address.

Surely your hips and torso finish pointing towards the target at the finish of your swing? Your belt buckle should be pointing North at address and West at the finish.

Anyway, beware of lateral movement. Yes it can feel more powerful but once your body starts to get ahead of the ball you open yourself up to all sorts of wild shots.

You need to 'hit into a firm left side'.

To work on it, stick a pole in the ground just outside your left foot. Hit balls with it there. If your left hip is sliding into the pole you're going wrong. You should be focusing on turning rather than laterally sliding.

To clarify, some lateral movement is definitely a good thing when a golfer gets to a good level to manage it. But that movement is because the back swing shifts back to the right and then laterally pushes while turning left - but still wouldn't sway into the pole.

WHIP IT! · 28-04-2008 10:03AM

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

You need to 'hit into a firm left side'.

That sounds like a good SwingThought SS, could you elaborate a bit more for the dodgy mid-handicappers among us?

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 10:21AM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

That sounds like a good Swing Though SS, could you elaborate a bit more for the dodgy mid-handicappers among us?

If you have a shed or any kind of wall or building near where you practice you can get the feeling of what I'm saying as follows:

As if the line of the side of the shed was your target line, make a golf stance with your left shoulder against the wall at the corner of the shed so your hands and club can kind of swing through down the side of the shed a little bit but your shoulder hits the wall, restricting any followthrough.

There's no ball involved here and you only swing in slow motion - it's only to give you an idea of how it feels.

So take the club back, almost to the top, and make your move down into the imaginary ball.

You're trying to rid your swing of too much lateral sway and your left hip sliding ahead of the ball before impact. But notice here, the shed will stop this happening. There's nowhere for your hip to go. So you get the feel of a solid left side of your body which turns as you hit, rather than gives-way.

Obviously you can't swing your arms through cos you'd hit the side of the shed but imagine yourself whipping your right hip (twist/rotate your body - not slide) almost into the wall. See how your hips release allowing your arms to follow through around your body more.

If you're of the serial killing inclination this might also help - Imagine drilling a steel pole down through your head, out your arse and into the ground.

You can't sway left to right but you and spin around on it's fixed axis.

Anyway, move away from the shed and try to replicate this feeling - as if the wall is blocking your hip from sliding forward, but you're bringing that right hip around to meet the wall and this time, you can really let your arms follow through.

WHIP IT! · 28-04-2008 11:05AM

Thanks for that SS, very interesting... I do have a problem with - as my mate calls it - "throwing the shoulder into that one" which usually produces disaster results. Hooks, slices - you name it...

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 12:05PM

yeah i do it myself

'skimming a stone' is also a good way of getting the feel for it. The way your body turns when you fire a stone accross the water is a very good movement to build into your swing and again promotes a turn rather than a slide!

Swinging Looney · 28-04-2008 12:09PM

Mant thanks SS, I think that is possibly one of the most useful things I have heard in a long time!

With regard to my OP, when I say my hips would finish in the same position as they were during address, what I mean is they are in the same position laterally. In other words, they have rotated 90 degrees and are facing West but have not actually moved West.

When I push off my right foot they have both rotated to face West and have also moved laterally to the West.

Anyhoo, your tip has shown that I can not afford that much movement at all. When I tried to push off my right foot while standing beside the shed, the back of my left shoulder hit the shed before I was halfway through my downswing. I think you will agree that that is a serious amount of movement!!!

I have managed to get a great feeling of the "firm left side" you were talking about. I can't wait to try this on the course or in the range next time. Many thanks!!

Davkie · 28-04-2008 12:24PM

The movement of the hips is probably the most important movement in the golf swing , The key to understanding the movement is to realize that the position your body is in at address is not the position you should be in at impact.
If you study pictures of pros at impact you will see that their hips have shifted forward towards the target and are in the process of opening. You will see that the Left foot , ankle , knee and Left hip at in a perpendicular line , the key is not to let the upper body follow this movement Pre impact.
So in the pros golf swing the sequence of movement from the top of the backswing is --- Hips a lateral shift/bump to the left blended with a turning action -- the shoulders are then pulled by the hips - then the arms and hands.
Letting the hips move to the right in the backswing should be avoided , this is swaying.
Turning your hips without reaching your left pivot point is spinning out.
Here are pictures of Faldo at address and impact , you can see how his left hip is over his left foot at impact and is about 45 degrees open in relation to the shoulders.

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 12:47PM

Davkie wrote: »

The movement of the hips is probably the most important movement in the golf swing , The key to understanding the movement is to realize that the position your body is in at address is not the position you should be in at impact.
If you study pictures of pros at impact you will see that their hips have shifted forward towards the target and are in the process of opening. You will see that the Left foot , ankle , knee and Left hip at in a perpendicular line , the key is not to let the upper body follow this movement Pre impact.
So in the pros golf swing the sequence of movement from the top of the backswing is --- Hips a lateral shift/bump to the left blended with a turning action -- the shoulders are then pulled by the hips - then the arms and hands.
Letting the hips move to the right in the backswing should be avoided , this is swaying.
Turning your hips without reaching your left pivot point is spinning out.
Here are pictures of Faldo at address and impact , you can see how his left hip is over his left foot at impact and is about 45 degrees open in relation to the shoulders.

That's all a bit too technical for me.

I think the ideas are fine but I always believe it's how you put things so someone can imagine it and get the feel for it rather than just saying X body part should be in Y position.

Also, generally accpeted theories on this part of technique have changed somewhat in recent times and Faldo's thoughts have become a little bit dated. I have old training videos from him where he actually promotes some ideas about hip movements that are plainly rejected now by the likes of Brendan McDaid and Bob Torrance.

Faldo shifts a lot to the left in this hit and while it worked for him with his impeccable timing, it's not something most would see as copy-able by the handicap golfer. I'd put it in the same bracket as Duval not looking at the ball through impact.

Interestingly, both guys games went from world #1 to sh*t once they nudged over their peak which might suggest that these kind of techniques are difficult to maintain.

Davkie · 28-04-2008 01:38PM

Also, generally accpeted theories on this part of technique have changed somewhat in recent times and Faldo's thoughts have become a little bit dated.

Faldo's thoughs on hip movement are actually the same as yours , in a video I have he states you just turn back and through. Yet clearly in the video and these pictures you can see the lateral shift of the hips towards the target.
This point really illustrates that what you/I/they feel in the swing could be contrary to what is actually happening.

Faldo shifts a lot to the left in this hit and while it worked for him with his impeccable timing, it's not something most would see as copy-able by the handicap golfer. I'd put it in the same bracket as Duval not looking at the ball through impact.

You say this like this move is some quirk in his swing , yet from Vardon to Woods all the top golfers in history will have this look at impact. Duvals head movement I would consider a quirk.

Here are two pictures of Modern swings with the same hip movement ,the rear view of Stenson really shows it clearly.

WHIP IT! · 28-04-2008 01:44PM

I have trouble (caused by when I start swinging too hard - which is alot!) coming over the top. Basically, I start my backswing from the top, rather than from the hips and come over the top causing a slice or straight pull.

What kind of swingthought would you suggest to ensure I get the hips going first so I call pull the club down on the inside - instead of this 'figure of eight' thing I have goin when I'm struggling?

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 02:07PM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I have trouble (caused by when I start swinging too hard - which is alot!) coming over the top. Basically, I start my backswing from the top, rather than from the hips and come over the top causing a slice or straight pull.

What kind of swingthought would you suggest to ensure I get the hips going first so I call pull the club down on the inside - instead of this 'figure of eight' thing I have goin when I'm struggling?

Remember those old toilets in pubs that you pulled down on the chain up high to flush them? Imagine when you get to the top, the trigger for your downswing is to pull that chain with both your hands down and almost feel like your divot is going to point to the right of your target - you've to be careful not to get too flat and watch out for a few pitfalls (which is why you need proper lessons) but essentially you'll improve your shots by swinging more in to out.

Along with this, you could hit some practice shots without lifting your right heel. When you go back to swinging normally you should have more of a feel for keeping your weight behind the ball for longer and as I said, pulling the club down on the inside (not over the top).

ShriekingSheet · 28-04-2008 02:18PM

Davkie wrote: »

Faldo's thoughs on hip movement are actually the same as yours , in a video I have he states you just turn back and through. Yet clearly in the video and these pictures you can see the lateral shift of the hips towards the target.
This point really illustrates that what you/I/they feel in the swing could be contrary to what is actually happening.

You say this like this move is some quirk in his swing , yet from Vardon to Woods all the top golfers in history will have this look at impact. Duvals head movement I would consider a quirk.

Here are two pictures of Modern swings with the same hip movement ,the rear view of Stenson really shows it clearly.

Well I was saying in my video he actually promotes the idea of laterally moving into the ball. Maybe yours in newer and he's since changed his ideas I don't know.

What I do know is that he swayed more on the way back and (obviously) more into it than pretty much all modern golfers. As your pictures show, the hip turn, left arm and club making a straight line at impact etc is all standard.

My point is he was gifted enough to make this work consistently for the bulk of his career but it's not something that someone could/should take and copy - like Duvals deal. That would also explain why in your video he's recommending something that's different from what he himself does.

I don't agree that everyone else is doing it as much as he did.

Davkie · 29-04-2008 08:02AM

I think we are getting off track here with the Faldo analyst , he was just an example to illustrate the point.
The Fact is all pro golfers will have this look at impact , compare the Faldo/Woods impact pictures only real differences are skin pigmentation and Nike logo's.
Check this link out ,shows alot of top golfers in slow motion. You will see that they All have a target -ward shift of the hips in the transition , at impact the Hips will be Closer to the target than at address.

http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/

If you don't have time to study them all , Harrington and Goosen are clear examples.

Don't look at Monty and Vijay both have a backwards movement of the hips in the backswing ,very bad , which is why Vijay has to be the hardest working man in golf, don't know how Monty gets away with it though.

WHIP IT! · 29-04-2008 09:26AM

Check out Aaron Baddeley's swing - is this a 'stack n tilt' golfswing? Noticeably very different to just about all the rest.

http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/02/23/71/index.html

Davkie · 29-04-2008 09:53AM

Baddeley does use stack/tilt , see how he much he sets up into his left side , his setup angles have a reverse K position. He basically setups in the impact position which means he doesn't need a large shift to get to his left pivot point in the down swing. But that shift is still there.
Pampling's swing is very similar although he's coming from a different school of instruction than stack/tilt.

Swinging Looney · 29-04-2008 11:56AM

Davkie wrote: »

Vijay has to be the hardest working man in golf

Surely that prize must go to Jim Furyk!! I still don't know how that man manage to hit anything.

Hip movement through impact

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