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Is Atheism a belief system in itself?

  • 19-05-2008 05:16PM
    #1
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭


    I came across this article and while I disagree with a lot of what is said in it the one thing that I was interested in was the idea that atheism was a belief system akin to any other religion. I don't believe it is, the way I see it is that it is just being human minus a belief in deities/fairies/a deity or the supernatural. Whatever the person believes after that is not part of his atheism although he may be freed up to believe certain things as an atheist. What do you folks think?


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Comments

  • #2
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    i think if youn just put the link in as the actual url below your post it would be a hell of a lot easier on those of us using the minamilist skin.


  • #3
    stereoroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭stereoroid


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I came across this article and while I disagree with a lot of what is said in it the one thing that I was interested in was the idea that atheism was a belief system akin to any other religion.
    I think there's two parts to this:
    - an assumption that everyone has to have a belief system, with ordained morals and codes of conduct - and if you don't, you're somehow "outside" society, akin to a criminal. It's a failure of imagination on their part. This is why there's so much discussion of secular ethics & morals, and their prehistoric (i.e. pre-religion) origins, as opposed to "religion as the source of morality".
    - "framing" atheism as a belief allows theists to say things like "why is your belief system more rational than ours?" - that is, it lets them accuse atheists of being just as irrational as they are. Totally unsubstantiated, not that it matters to someone bent on painting atheists as the enemy. :rolleyes:


  • #4
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    At the second sentence this article failed my crap-o-metre.

    Anyways yes atheism is a belief, its true. The reason being you cant prove that god is not real despite all the probabilities you care to mention.

    Is it like a religion? heck no!

    A commonly used parallel is someone who believes astrology isnt real, thats also a belief. I think to call either atheism or non-astrologism a belief system is a very big stretch.


  • #5
    Fremen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    Athiesm is a belief system in the same way that NOT playing tennis is a sport.


  • #6
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Is theism even a belief system in itself? You could describe a belief system as theistic or atheistic but wouldnt the religion itself be the belief system?


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  • #7
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.


  • #8
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.

    Not by me I hope :D


  • #9
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    eoin5 wrote: »
    Is theism even a belief system in itself? You could describe a belief system as theistic or atheistic but wouldnt the religion itself be the belief system?

    we're getting into crazy levels of reductionism here. If we want to take that to it's ultimate conclusion, its impossible to label anything as 'a belief system' because every single individual that ever walked the earth had their own unique system of beliefs (if every snowflake can be unique, then there are enough unique variations on belief to cover every human individual)


    I would go with sam harris on this one and suggest that the majority of 'believers' don't actually believe in God, rather, they believe in the belief in god. They think that believing is a virtue, and therefore they ought to believe in a god, but they can't actually define any specific characteristics of the god they claim to believe in. (aside from their own opinion of what they think a god might be like, but based on nothing really)

    fundamentalists don't fit into this characteristics because they at least have a frame of reference, the bible. Most christians don't know scripture well enough to form an 'evidence based' opinion, and instead just go with wishy washy versions of belief in 'something' because they think that belief itself is a virtue, even if you don't know what you believe in.


  • #10
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Akrasia wrote: »
    we're getting into crazy levels of reductionism here. If we want to take that to it's ultimate conclusion, its impossible to label anything as 'a belief system' because every single individual that ever walked the earth had their own unique system of beliefs (if every snowflake can be unique, then there are enough unique variations on belief to cover every human individual)

    If the term "belief system" doesnt come with an explicit quantization I'd accept that as a conclusion, everyone has their own take on things.

    edit:

    Here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system

    from there I'd go for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_stance

    ...and:
    wikipedia wrote:
    Life stance or lifestance refers to a person's relation with what he or she accepts as of ultimate importance, the presuppositions and theory of this, and the commitments and practice of working it out in living.


  • #11
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    OP: No, it is not a belief system. This thread amuses me. That is all. :rolleyes::D


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  • #12
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. One could just as easily say, 'you believe there is no god'. As for there being a system, well i think it depends on the atheist really. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.


  • #13
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. One could just as easily say, 'you believe there is no god'. As for there being a system, well i think it depends on the atheist really. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.

    Indeed, but a "system" that only consisted of that single tenet is ludicrously simple. I'm not sure a system can be made out of a single thing.


  • #14
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Indeed, but a "system" that only consisted of that single tenet is ludicrously simple. I'm not sure a system can be made out of a single thing.

    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.


  • #15
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.
    Oh, I think there is a common consensus as to what an atheist is - the confusion simply arises when people (usually not atheists) try to add features to it. Like suggesting it's a 'faith', for instance. :D


  • #16
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.

    And rightly so :pac:

    Atheism is not a belief system

    A belief system being a common set of beliefs that build off each other (ie God exists, God loves everyone, I should be nice to everyone because God is nice to me - or - All humans are created equally, I wish to have rights, I should grant those rights to others)

    Knowing someone is an atheist tells me nothing about their belief system.

    Stalin was an atheist, so was Einstein. They did not share the same belief system as far as I can tell, and I doubt I share the same belief system with either of them.

    People tend to assume that atheism is the same as actual belief systems like humanism or secularism. It isn't. A person can be an atheist and not be a secularist or a humanist.


  • #17
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.
    Except you don't have to be an atheist to be an anti-theist. You could be agnostic, deist or fit in any number of pigeon holes.


  • #18
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    Oh, I think there is a common consensus as to what an atheist is - the confusion simply arises when people (usually not atheists) try to add features to it. Like suggesting it's a 'faith', for instance. :D

    Cheeky:) Well if its not based on scientific eveidence, or of knowledge, what would you call it?


  • #19
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.

    Atheism is only possible because of the lack of evidence for theism, or any -ism. I think most atheists would "believe" if given suitably convincing evidence. Of course then it wouldn't be blind faith any more...

    Theists and proponents of other religions, jump, from the position of no-evidence, and take up their various insupportable positions.

    Anti-theism stems from theism, not atheism.


  • #20
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    Except you don't have to be an atheist to be an anti-theist. You could be agnostic, deist or fit in any number of pigeon holes.


    I agree, i just said this is something that can stem, individually, from an atheist. It was an example of a belief system that 'can' stem from the basic atheist tenet. I'm not saying that this makes atheism a system, but rather that a system can come from its basic tenet.


  • #21
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Cheeky:) Well if its not based on scientific eveidence, or of knowledge, what would you call it?

    Who said it isn't based on evidence or knowledge?


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  • #22
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree, i just said this is something that can stem, individually, from an atheist. It was an example of a belief system that 'can' stem from the basic atheist tenet. I'm not saying that this makes atheism a system, but rather that a system can come from its basic tenet.

    Well as wicknight said someone could be secularist or a humanist for example on top of being an atheist, but I fail to see what that may have do with the fundamental defination of atheism itself.


  • #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    FYI all - there is now an atheism=faith thread...

    Different from the current atheism=belief system one!


  • #24
    markyedison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭markyedison


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. .

    This is exactly the same argument I've heard christians give for homosexuality; that Atheism / Queerness is a choice is a bogus postulate. Jimitime , you are being lied to!

    Apologies for the curt reply, but i find this argument offensive on both levels.

    Cheers,
    Marky


  • #25
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    markyedison wrote: »
    This is exactly the same argument I've heard christians give for homosexuality; that Atheism / Queerness is a choice is a bogus postulate. Jimitime , you are being lied to!

    Apologies for the curt reply, but i find this argument offensive on both levels.

    Cheers,
    Marky

    Steady on there tiger. I am completely missing the relevance of Homosexuality here:confused:


  • #26
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think markyedison is implying that you were implying that atheism is a 'choice'. Probably prompted by the word "conscious" in your post. The comparison is that certain religious elements believe homosexuality is a (bad) choice that could be avoided.

    Didn't read any of that in your post, myself!


  • #27
    markyedison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭markyedison


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Steady on there tiger. I am completely missing the relevance of Homosexuality here:confused:

    In a previous post, you referred to atheism as a product of a thought process. The notion of atheism as a personal choice is, IMO, akin to the notion that being gay is a personal choice.

    To me, there is a significant similarlity between gays and atheists both in their demonisation by the church and the fiction that to be gay/ atheist is a lifestyle option upon which individuals embark.

    Again, like being gay, atheism is a black and white issue about which there is no choice. One either is or is not...
    Marky


  • #28
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    markyedison wrote: »
    In a previous post, you referred to atheism as a product of a thought process. The notion of atheism as a personal choice is, IMO, akin to the notion that being gay is a personal choice.

    To me, there is a significant similarlity between gays and atheists both in their demonisation by the church and the fiction that to be gay/ atheist is a lifestyle option upon which individuals embark.

    Again, like being gay, atheism is a black and white issue about which there is no choice. One either is or is not...
    Marky

    The default stance on the subject is agnosticism with no belief in the existance of a god. That person is an atheist by default.

    To become an atheist after being a theist though is a different story. I think some thought, even on the subconscious level, is needed to convert oneself. Its not necessarily a personal choice but its certainly not an intrinsic yay or nay for everyone either.

    The same goes for someone with knowledge of religion and continues to be an atheist.


  • #29
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    And rightly so :pac:

    Atheism is not a belief system

    Alas, I'm not convinced


  • #30
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Alas, I'm not convinced

    This may be a failure of your imagination. Many adherents to belief systems seem to find it almost impossible to grasp the idea of not having/needing one. Therefore they presume that atheism must be in some way analogous to whatever-it-is they believe in. I've almost fallen out with a good friend over this - he simply refuses to accept the word of an atheist on what an (this) atheist is.

    I don't know why it's so hard for you. Just think of something you don't believe in. Time travel or whatever. That, I'd dare say, is how most atheists feel about god. The fact that you believe in it passionately is irrelevant to us.

    Would you describe not believing in time travel as a belief system?


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  • #31
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Alas, I'm not convinced

    Fair enough.

    Perhaps define what you understand a belief system to be and then describe how atheism matches that definition. That would at least get everyone on the same page.


  • #32
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    rockbeer wrote: »
    This may be a failure of your imagination...

    You really should work on eradicating the patronising superiority that somehow managed to weasel itself into your post.


  • #33
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You really should work on eradicating the patronising superiority that somehow managed to weasel itself into your post.

    One could say the same to you Fanny.

    There is little more patronizing than simply responding to posts with an arrogant line like "I'm not convinced" as if the ability to convince you of something is some how a standard to be used to measure the validity, worthiness or accuracy of a point

    If you are going to play that game expect equally glib replies :rolleyes:


  • #34
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Personally I though rockbeer's post quite genuine.

    If someone cannot grasp the idea that atheism is not a belief system, then they are either trying not to, or making up their own definitions of both.


  • #35
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You really should work on eradicating the patronising superiority that somehow managed to weasel itself into your post.

    Thanks, I'm always glad to receive self-help tips from Internet strangers.

    Now how about addressing the point.


  • #36
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Thanks, I'm always glad to receive self-help tips from Internet strangers.

    Now how about addressing the point.

    LOL, yeah we sometimes get around to addressing points. But only if there's time left...


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  • #37
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Dades wrote: »
    Personally I though rockbeer's post quite genuine.

    If someone cannot grasp the idea that atheism is not a belief system, then they are either trying not to, or making up their own definitions of both.

    I think it is just wishful thinking on the part of some religious believers, who like to convince themselves that atheists and agnostics struggle daily to supress some overwhelming natural urge to believe in God.


  • #38
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Thanks, I'm always glad to receive self-help tips from Internet strangers.

    Now how about addressing the point.

    I like you, you're mean.


  • #39
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Zillah wrote: »
    I like you, you're mean.

    :D

    Only when meaned to!


  • #40
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    One could say the same to you Fanny.

    There is little more patronizing than simply responding to posts with an arrogant line like "I'm not convinced" as if the ability to convince you of something is some how a standard to be used to measure the validity, worthiness or accuracy of a point

    If you are going to play that game expect equally glib replies :rolleyes:

    It depends upon how you choose to read my response. My 'glib' post wasn't intended to be delivered in an arrogant fashion, I simply don't agree with you. I had partly typed up a reply you your question last night, but it was late and I didn't get a chance to finish it. You didn't give me a chance to reply before you chastised me.


  • #41
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I had partly typed up a reply you your question last night, but it was late and I didn't get a chance to finish it. You didn't give me a chance to reply before you chastised me.

    I didn't chastise you for your post, I "chastised" you for giving out about rockbeer's post (which I though wasn't that bad at all).

    As I said, if you post short glib posts expect a response in a similar fashion. Rockbeer's comment about you lacking imagination was certainly no more patronizing that your comment about, alas, not being convinced.

    Saying you had a more detailed explanation as to why you are not convinced, that you just haven't got around to posting yet, is all very well but the rest of us can only work of what you actually post.


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  • #42
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    So my comment is now no longer 'fair enough'?

    I took exception to someone labelling those who 'adhere to belief systems' as being limited in imagination. Though possibly too strongly worded, I stick by my decision to challenge this opinion.

    You seem to be quite put out because I didn't write a few more lines in my post. Again, it seems like you have viewed my comment in a manner that it wasn't intended. Would it have taken a :pac: at the end of my post for you to realise that it was tongue in cheek? I have seen you post similar one line rejoinders before and I've never take them to be 'glib'. Indeed, one of your posts here opened with such jibe directed at me.

    Sh1t storm in a tea cup, that's all this is.


    So moving on...

    "Wicknight, I really don't have much interest in debating the subject in any great depth. Last time that happened there was little in the way of understanding from either side. But I'll give it a post or two and see what happens.

    After further consideration of the thread I will concede that atheism is not a belief system, much like theism isn't a belief system, either. Surely a system is comprised of a series or a group of elements. In both cases - theism and atheism - there is simply a single proposition regarding the (non)existence of a deity(s). I would, however, argue that both are beliefs. Now, assuming you don't already disagree with my assertions (and I would be surprised if you didn't), I will go on to contend that atheism, like theism, is often a strong driving force in the lives of people. This driving force, IMO, can then lead people to form or adopt belief systems which are very much grounded in their original belief.    "


  • #43
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    So my comment is now no longer 'fair enough'?
    Your comment was always fair enough as far as I'm concerned. if you want to be glib I don't really care, but giving out about others doing the same is rather silly
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I took exception to someone labelling those who 'adhere to belief systems' as being limited in imagination.
    I think the point was more that people who can't understand that atheism isn't a belief system may do so due to them lacking imagination, preventing them from viewing the world without a supernatural belief system or turning to a concept of a higher authority.

    Although I suspect Rockbeer himself was being a little tongue in cheek, expecting his post to be perceived as some what provocative, thus matching your glibness with a bit of shake up.

    Clearly he was right
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You seem to be quite put out because I didn't write a few more lines in my post.
    I'm not put out at all, as I said if the posts people have written on this matter don't "convince" you then that is fair enough. If you don't get it I simply shrug.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Sh1t storm in a tea cup, that's all this is.
    The only person who appears to be making a fuss Fanny is you, being insulted by Rockbeers post.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    After further consideration of the thread I will concede that atheism is not a belief system
    ...Surely a system is comprised of a series or a group of elements. In both cases - theism and atheism - there is simply a single proposition regarding the (non)existence of a deity(s).
    ...I would, however, argue that both are beliefs.
    ...I will go on to contend that atheism, like theism, is often a strong driving force in the lives of people.

    So really you were convinced. Wonderful, moving on


  • #44
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    At any point in time you either believe or disbelieve in the existance of a god. If youre not sure its a no for the time being. This makes everyone a theist or an atheist. In order to be a theist a belief is necessary whereas to be an atheist all that is required is to never hear of god and to never feel the need to invent him/her. If you call that a belief then its the same as someone who disbelieves in walking rainbows because he/she hasnt heard of them.


  • #45
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Wonderful, moving on


    'Fair enough'


  • #46
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    After further consideration of the thread I will concede that atheism is not a belief system, much like theism isn't a belief system, either. Surely a system is comprised of a series or a group of elements. In both cases - theism and atheism - there is simply a single proposition regarding the (non)existence of a deity(s). I would, however, argue that both are beliefs. Now, assuming you don't already disagree with my assertions (and I would be surprised if you didn't), I will go on to contend that atheism, like theism, is often a strong driving force in the lives of people. This driving force, IMO, can then lead people to form or adopt belief systems which are very much grounded in their original belief.[/I]"
    Jimitime wrote:
    atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet

    Snap:)


  • #47
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Once and for all, atheism is not a belief.

    It is the absence of belief.

    But hey guys, why listen to us, we're just the ones who don't have the belief, you go ahead and believe whatever makes you feel better about yourselves.


  • #48
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Just to fuel the flames some more... :)
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    After further consideration of the thread I will concede that atheism is not a belief system, much like theism isn't a belief system, either.
    I would have thought the layman's definition of a 'theist' would be someone who believes in the god(s) of a particular religion. Which would imply they were subject to a belief system.

    A deist, or some such would be the only 'believer' I can think of that would not be associated with some form of religious regulation.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I will go on to contend that atheism, like theism, is often a strong driving force in the lives of people.
    That's true but still somewhat unspecific. Atheism isn't technically the driving force - you'll find it's something like secularism, anti-theism or humanism.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    This driving force, IMO, can then lead people to form or adopt belief systems which are very much grounded in their original belief."
    What you are really saying, is that the absence of a religious belief system, may lead people to finding a non-religious belief system. Not exactly profound!


  • #49
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Once and for all, atheism is not a belief.

    It is the absence of belief.

    But hey guys, why listen to us, we're just the ones who don't have the belief, you go ahead and believe whatever makes you feel better about yourselves.

    It doesn't make me feel better about myself, and I have listened to all of you. I just don't conclude that atheism is not a belief. Its a belief that gods or divine beings don't exist. Why exactly are you so adamant on distancing the word atheism from belief?


  • #50
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Because belief in god is not a reasonable proposition.

    The phrase "atheism is a belief" implies that it is.

    i.e. it suggests that I don't believe in something which it is reasonable to believe in.

    If I believe there is no Taj Mahal, you mark me down as a loony... the suggestion that I believe there is no god carries something of the same implication. There is at least a reasonable probability there is a god but I believe there isn't.

    I don't believe there's a 14 foot red dragon living in my attic. Is that a belief?

    I will accept that atheism is a belief when you acknowledge that believing in god is no more reasonable than believing in my red dragon.

    Edit: Actually I'll give you a break here JimiTime, I'll drop the bit about reasonableness and accept that atheism is a belief when you accept that not believing in my red dragon is a belief. Just acknowledge that "smokey" is exactly as likely to exist as god and we'll call it quits :)


  • #51
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It doesn't make me feel better about myself, and I have listened to all of you. I just don't conclude that atheism is not a belief. Its a belief that gods or divine beings don't exist. Why exactly are you so adamant on distancing the word atheism from belief?

    I see where you are coming from JimiTime. There's a load of different meanings for the word "belief". I AM NOT going to get into semantics again, but do you mean believe as in "think to be true"? Because in that case I think you are 100% correct, I don't see how you could not be.

    I think some of the people are protesting because they think the word "belief" implies some sort of non-evidential thinking; which they so abhor. That's my take, anyhow.


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