Vote on the Lisbon Treaty here. (Quit yer bitchin')

Dr. Baltar · 06-06-2008 01:11PM

Voting No - Totally opposed to allowing the European Union have its own foreign policy.

Also: I do not support Euratom.

invincibleirish · 06-06-2008 01:17PM

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Voting No - Totally opposed to allowing the European Union have its own foreign policy.

Also: I do not support Euratom.

Already has a Common Foreign & Security Policy, and its not having 'its own' Foreign Policy its negotiated policy of ALL member states, Ireland has its input.

There are no plans for Nuclear power in Ireland and if we all pull our socks up there'll be none in Europe.

titan18 · 06-06-2008 01:39PM

Why would ye vote NO in protest to the Government.Surely it'd be better to vote YES so we can get closer to a United Europe ruled through Europe and not the morons who run this country.

I'm not voting though as our brainless Government decided to put the vote in the middle of my Leaving Cert and I'm not taking time off to go vote when I should be studying

miju · 06-06-2008 01:42PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

*that includes you Declan Ganley employee of Nvidia, a company with US miliary Links

That includes you David Cochrane, Formerly a YPD of a Neo Liberal origins (pro US) and his chums in the old freedom institute

That includes you Kieran Allen, Richard Boyd Barrett of Voteno.ie, both militant socialists who are anti Europe

That includes you Mary Lou Mcdonald,Patricia Mckenna & Kathy Sinnott, so anti EU are they they choose to stand to get elected to the EU parliament, quite convenient when your own irish electorate wont elect you to the Dail, stop trying make names for yourselves you opportunistic hippocrits!

That includes you Coir, with your youth defence links and allies thorughout the nefarious far right of Europe, all ideologically opposed to the EU

As for Padraig Walshe of the IFA, the EU is the reason you still exist and have power, stop trying to play political games when you should be on your knees giving fellatio to the Lisbon Treaty, Europe has helped Irish farmers more then anyone else, stop acting like the even more ungrateful Danish farmers.

you were going good until this rant. this is exactly why the yes side is losing at the moment. your playing the man not the ball

I'm voting No and I only partially understand it, what swing it for me is the bully boy tactics of the yes side. They seem to shirk debating the issues and just go on tyrades against Libertas or Sinn Fein etc, so the way I see it is the Yes side can't really rationalise a yes vote so go on the attack instead.

I reckon other Irish people are thinking / rationalising the same as me and so are voting No

humanji · 06-06-2008 01:50PM

miju wrote: »

you were going good until this rant. this is exactly why the yes side is losing at the moment. your playing the man not the ball

I'm voting No and I only partially understand it, what swing it for me is the bully boy tactics of the yes side. They seem to shirk debating the issues and just go on tyrades against Libertas or Sinn Fein etc, so the way I see it is the Yes side can't really rationalise a yes vote so go on the attack instead.

I reckon other Irish people are thinking / rationalising the same as me and so are voting No

It's a valid argument, though. When you're being given information, who gives you this info and what there motives are is very important as to whether you can trust it or not.

miju · 06-06-2008 01:53PM

While it is valid I've yet to see anyone prominent in the No campaign doing the same to the Yes side tbh.

Anyone campaigning for either Yes or No is obviously going to be biased in their view for one reason or another (I think most people would take that as a given) despite any stated intentions to the contrary

Eoin · 06-06-2008 01:54PM

Papa Smut wrote: »

I'm voting no for one reason alone.

Solidarity between Member States: the Treaty of Lisbon provides that the Union and its Member States act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the subject of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

From: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

I was wondering about that, and it doesn't seem to say that military assistance is required and that could easily be interpreted to mean civil assistance - financial aid as someone mentioned or EMT personnel etc.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

6) I'll make this last point short, because perhaps many yes voters (and no voters) agree on this. Abortion. There's nothing stopping the EU from implementing this, and other policies, on EU states if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified.

It seems to have been emphatically confirmed that we do NOT have to change our protocol on abortion.

I still don't know what way I'm going to vote though, which is strange because normally I would automatically oppose anything SF/IRA say.

An "undecided but will vote" option should be available on the poll to differentiate from people who can't or won't.

thelordofcheese · 06-06-2008 01:55PM

This thread makes me sad.

It also makes me sad that presumable intelligent people seem to be incapable of properly researching the topic at hand and instead resort to parroting half-truths and outright lies and then clinging to them even when they've been shown why what they are saying is wrong.

leninbenjamin · 06-06-2008 01:57PM

Papa Smut wrote: »

I'm voting no for one reason alone.

Solidarity between Member States: the Treaty of Lisbon provides that the Union and its Member States act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the subject of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

From: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

Now, with a terrorist threat always in the air these days, I am not taking the chance of having being forced into a war. When London was subject to the terrorist attacks, what would've happened there? We go to war against the arabs? Start a new world war?

No Thank you very much.

solidarity is not going to war. that would very much be jumping to conclusions.

But still us in the EU quite frankly have the closest political, legal and economic relationships to our neighbouring countries that has probably ever been seen before between independent sovereign states, and you wouldn't want to help them if they got attacked or threatened? that's just... weird...

i vote Yes. Europe has been the only positive thing in our entire political and economic history. anything that furthers this is good for us.

humanji · 06-06-2008 02:02PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

This thread makes me sad.

It also makes me sad that presumable intelligent people seem to be incapable of properly researching the topic at hand and instead resort to parroting half-truths and outright lies and then clinging to them even when they've been shown why what they are saying is wrong.

Welcome to AH

AngelinaJolie · 06-06-2008 02:03PM

When the Serbians were slaughtering the Bosnians, the EU- including Ireland- did nothing because of bureaucracy. It took Bill Clinton and a quite a number of B52s to sort Milošević out.... on Europe's doorstep. This MUST not happen again. I don't agree with money spent on weaponry but I'm pretty sure that the 6% GDP funding is for all things military, not just guns.

Dave! · 06-06-2008 02:04PM

Can those arguing that we will lose our low corporate tax rate explain why the treaty is being supported by IBEC (The Irish Business and Employers Confederation), and the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland? Surely those are the 2 main groups in the country who's primary concern would be maintaining the low tax rate.

And re: increasing military spending. Ask over on the Military forum and they'll tell you that the Defence Forces are seriously underfunded as it is, and an increase in spending is to be encouraged regardless of whether Lisbon is passed or not. Our military is a joke in terms of hardware.

thelordofcheese · 06-06-2008 02:09PM

humanji wrote: »

Welcome to AH

I know, but i assumed it was just a vocal minority. Silly me.

Rb · 06-06-2008 02:18PM

I can't rememeber who said it in a previous thread but it is by far the best reason to vote no;

Would you enter into a binding contract, whereby the other party could change the conditions/terms of the contract after signing? That is what voting yes will do. Anyone who enters such a contract is nothing short of an idiot.

ART6 · 06-06-2008 02:19PM

QUOTE:

Newsletter 2008/06/03 - The End of Neutrality

DUBLIN/BERLIN (Own report) - By using pressure and heavy threats,
Berlin is seeking to prevent a "No" to the EU treaty in Ireland's
referendum on June 12. The EU Parliament's President Hans-Gert
Poettering (CDU) is demanding that "politicians of all sides" in
Dublin explain the advantages of the EU to the population. Elmar Brok
(CDU), a member of the European Parliament, declared that a "debate on Ireland's withdrawal" from the EU should not be excluded, if the
treaty is rejected. According to opinion polls, the approval sought by
Berlin, is in danger and therefore also the EU treaty's coming into
force, which would permit the smooth appointment of a European foreign
minister and the corresponding European foreign service, along with
preparations for establishing a European army. These objectives are
very important to the German government, as Foreign Minister
Steinmeier recently confirmed. Fearing to be drawn into Europe's
future wars, many Irish are insisting on their country's neutrality.
They are rejecting the "EU treaty", because it would accelerate the EU
foreign policy's further standardization and militarization. Giving in
to pressure from Berlin, the Irish government is campaigning against a
significant portion of its own population, and therefore drawing
criticism.

more
http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56160

How interesting. So now we are to be threatened by Germans if we don't agree to a treaty that's the EU constitution in all but name. If I had any doubt before I have none now. No bl**dy way Elmar Brok:mad:

Rb · 06-06-2008 02:22PM

leninbenjamin wrote: »

i vote Yes. Europe has been the only positive thing in our entire political and economic history. anything that furthers this is good for us.

Sorry but this is a ridiculous reason to vote yes.

So, since Europe has been good to Ireland in the past, it always will be? It will ALWAYS have Irelands best interests at heart, and we should support any decision by it?

I think not.

invincibleirish · 06-06-2008 02:22PM

miju wrote: »

you were going good until this rant. this is exactly why the yes side is losing at the moment. your playing the man not the ball

I'm voting No and I only partially understand it, what swing it for me is the bully boy tactics of the yes side. They seem to shirk debating the issues and just go on tyrades against Libertas or Sinn Fein etc, so the way I see it is the Yes side can't really rationalise a yes vote so go on the attack instead.

I reckon other Irish people are thinking / rationalising the same as me and so are voting No

Im sorry but the people i mentioned are political opportunists, using the Lisbon treaty to promote their own politics.

The SWP dont like the EU

Neo Liberals dont like the EU

The Far left & Right MEPs dont like the EU

They are all ideologically opposed to the EU WHATEVER form it takes, they are opposed to the Lisbon treaty out of ideology, before they even read the treaty they are against it. So when i hear peeps like Kieran Allen on the Radio coming across as a legitimate commentator, he isnt, he is completely anti EU no matter what is in the treaty. He'd argue against the treaty if its only clause was to promote the the hugging of puppies,why? because he is a revolutionary socialist, the EU is anethema to his politics.

The IFA dont care about Lisbon, Walshe just used it as an excuse to get promises out of the Government on WTO talks.

Voting NO because you dont like the tone of the yes side is a retarded wrong reason to vote no. The 'your playing the man not the ball' analogy should apply to your own standing. the Lisbon Treaty is 7 years in the making, its a good, but completely unstylish and not very extravagent document, the declaration of independance it isnt. Its just a document that ensures the union will run more efficiently with 27 members then it did with 15.

gurramok · 06-06-2008 02:22PM

darkman2 wrote: »

. I had known the EU parliment voted to ignore the Irish vote - A few days a go I looked at this video on youtube showing the vote and it sat uneasy with me. The sheer complacency and having to look to British MEP's to try and push the argument in favor of respecting the Irish vote was bizarre.

Is this TRUE?

If so, it's disturbing that the vote of the Irish people is not going to be respected by the powers we want more integration with.

leninbenjamin · 06-06-2008 02:23PM

Rb wrote: »

Would you enter into a binding contract, whereby the other party could change the conditions/terms of the contract after signing? That is what voting yes will do. Anyone who enters such a contract is nothing short of an idiot.

uhhh what? any changes will have to be ratified domestically... if it affects our constitution it will still have to have a referendum. self amending means the treaty can be updated without having to draught an entire new one.

Rb wrote: »

Sorry but this is a ridiculous reason to vote yes.

So, since Europe has been good to Ireland in the past, it always will be? It will ALWAYS have Irelands best interests at heart, and we should support any decision by it?

I think not.

as ridiculous as yours for voting no? i think not... i'm not putting blind faith in the EU. i'm voting yes on a treaty that clearly outlines it's propositions, and they are things i can agree with. that doesn't prevent me from voting no at later stage...

Rb · 06-06-2008 02:25PM

ART6 wrote: »

How interesting. So now we are to be threatened by Germans if we don't agree to a treaty that's the EU constitution in all but name. If I had any doubt before I have none now. No bl**dy way Elmar Brok:mad:

Aye, it's sick. How dare they.

It appears those trying to force a Yes have a vested interest in it somehow. F*ck them anyway.

5starpool · 06-06-2008 02:26PM

Papa Smut wrote: »

I respect your opinion, however the way I see it, being forced into solidarity, when as you say, it is the usual politically correct thing to do, does not sit well with me.

I have to log off now, I have enjoyed this brief debate and am pleasantly surprised that it hasn't descended into a "I'd vte no 2 Yer MA!" type debate.

You said you were voting no for one reason only, then that reason got proved to be incorrect, yet you are still voting no anyhow? So either you were lying about there being only one reason or you are too stubborn to believe something you don't want to.

The fact that so many blatant and false lies that have been disproved have come from the No camp should be enough to persuade reasonable people that they are using the 'If you throw enough sh1t, something will stick' tactic to try and scare people. Sadly it seems to be working.

RandolphEsq · 06-06-2008 02:26PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Boards does not represtent Ireland at all. If they did we would have a FG goverment right now.

More likely that is what we would have as our leader

Rb · 06-06-2008 02:29PM

gurramok wrote: »

If so, it's disturbing that the vote of the Irish people is not going to be respected by the powers we want more integration with.

Indeed.

If a No comes through, and they attempt to push the legislation through regardless, or get Cowan & co to make us vote again until we "get it right", I don't know what we should do. It'll speak volumes if they force it on us (though, one could say they're already attempting to force it on us with threats, overwhelming campaigning etc). If they're capable of this over a vote, God knows what they're capable of in times of war, or tax issues etc.

This treaty does not provide any benefit to Ireland whatsoever, nothing, it only has negative implications and the possibility of even more negative consequences for our country. Why anyone would vote yes is beyond me. Feeling that we owe the EU it is retarded, fearing the consequences of a No thanks to the threats of ignorant little f*ckers in Europe is a bad reason to vote Yes.
It's not good for Ireland, it's not good for Europe, it benefits a few who'll now have even more power in Europe and over our country.

Leeby · 06-06-2008 02:32PM

darkman2 wrote: »

I had known the EU parliment voted to ignore the Irish vote - A few days a go I looked at this video on youtube showing the vote and it sat uneasy with me. The sheer complacency and having to look to British MEP's to try and push the argument in favor of respecting the Irish vote was bizarre.

Do you've a link?

Also, I would encourage anyone unsure (or anyone who knows what they're voting, I guess it doesn't really matter) to get a copy of the Village Magazine with it's "Lisbon Treaty for Dummies". It shows, the exact amendments, what text has been deleted, what text has been added, and at the end of each Article/Section, shows the NO argument, and the YES argument, and then their own editorial (which seems to swing either way, depending on which article they're referring to). Basically looks simple and neutral to me.

Dudess · 06-06-2008 02:32PM

Summer Glau wrote: »

I know i am going to get banned for this for a while. But you are a ****ing idiot. Its a legal document that is filled with a lot of legal talk and big words to stop as many loopholes and dangers from appearing etc.. You don't refuse to use a solicitor/lawyer just because you don't understand the big complex words they use in court do you?

If you don't understand it don't vote on it. And don't be a ****ing child and vote No because you cant understand it. There is a wealth of information out there from both sides, from independent positions all over the web, on news papers etc.

If you don't understand it then don't vote, let the people who do understand it vote. If you dislike the government and want to vote no just to spite them, stay at home and don't vote. Read up on information yourselves and vote either yes or no depdning on what suits you best. Dont be a ****ing muppet.

Banned for personal abuse.

Maximilian · 06-06-2008 02:34PM

Rb wrote: »

I can't rememeber who said it in a previous thread but it is by far the best reason to vote no;

Would you enter into a binding contract, whereby the other party could change the conditions/terms of the contract after signing? That is what voting yes will do. Anyone who enters such a contract is nothing short of an idiot.

Bit of a bad analogy RB. This is a completely different thing to a contract. A contract isn't a blueprint to regulate government, its simply a record of an agreement.

Take the memo & arts of a company as an example as its conceptually closer - using that particular logic, you would say why would anyone form a company with a certain memorandum of association, if it could be changed later? Why would anyone not do that? Why would any country enact a Constitution that could not be amended.

Sam Vimes · 06-06-2008 02:44PM

miju wrote: »

you were going good until this rant. this is exactly why the yes side is losing at the moment. your playing the man not the ball

I'm voting No and I only partially understand it, what swing it for me is the bully boy tactics of the yes side. They seem to shirk debating the issues and just go on tyrades against Libertas or Sinn Fein etc, so the way I see it is the Yes side can't really rationalise a yes vote so go on the attack instead.

I reckon other Irish people are thinking / rationalising the same as me and so are voting No

some examples of posters i saw:

people died for your freedom. don't give it away. vote no (and a big picture of the consitution)

we won't see you. we won't hear you. we won't fight for you. the new eu. vote no

you'll be sorry. vote no

so it's the yes side that are employing bully boy tactics?

darkman2 · 06-06-2008 02:47PM

Leeby wrote: »

Do you've a link?

Also, I would encourage anyone unsure (or anyone who knows what they're voting, I guess it doesn't really matter) to get a copy of the Village Magazine with it's "Lisbon Treaty for Dummies". It shows, the exact amendments, what text has been deleted, what text has been added, and at the end of each Article/Section, shows the NO argument, and the YES argument, and then their own editorial (which seems to swing either way, depending on which article they're referring to). Basically looks simple and neutral to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jg-qzJ-L_A&feature=related

Forward to 1:50 Ignore the other propaganda in the clip. Ive little time for that myself - its the principle surrounding the vote that ive reservations about.

ART6 · 06-06-2008 04:29PM

Reading the successive threads about Lisbon, I note that the "Yes" lobby keeps telling us how good Europe has been for Ireland in the past and, therefore, for some inexplicable reason, it is taken that it will continue to be in the future. So, I refer to articles in the press today quoting Jean-Claude Trichet, the ECB President, who suggests he expects ECB interest rates to rise shortly. Then consider the quoted comment by IIB economist Austin Hughes of the IIB:

"Without doubt the prospect of higher interest rates will further weaken the Irish economy and the property market in particular." He went on to say "The prospects for the Irish economy in the second half of this year look a good deal poorer as a result."

So. We can't control our economy now because we can't control our own interest rates, and after Lisbon we may well not be able to control our tax rates either (I am not at all pursuaded by the "Yes" people that we can retain our present levels of tax control or that our supine politicians will even try to).

We already are struggling with inflation, job losses, property slump and a budget deficit, and Lisbon is not going to "create jobs" any more than Nice did, in spite of the lectures we are given. So I suspect we are about to find out just how good for us the EU will be in the future.

We are also told we should be grateful to the EU for what it has done for us in the past, and should vote "Yes" accordingly. The British gave us an international language, a model democracy, and a common law based upon 600 years of refinement and justice for the common man and judgement by his peers. Are the Irish people grateful for that? Or do they recall that the gift also involved submission to a foreign power? Following that reasoning perhaps Ireland should apply to join the UK?

No longer any doubt. Definately a "NO" for me.

06-06-2008 04:42PM

5starpool wrote: »

You said you were voting no for one reason only, then that reason got proved to be incorrect, yet you are still voting no anyhow? So either you were lying about there being only one reason or you are too stubborn to believe something you don't want to.

The fact that so many blatant and false lies that have been disproved have come from the No camp should be enough to persuade reasonable people that they are using the 'If you throw enough sh1t, something will stick' tactic to try and scare people. Sadly it seems to be working.

I would love to know where I've been proven wrong. I find one thing in the treaty that I personally don't agree with (Enforced Solidarity - I provided the link earlier) and now I'm wrong?

I'm sorry, but this is the pomposity of the yes brigade. Just because IBEC and ALL the major political parties say I should sign up to something that I personally have doubts with, means I should do it? That is not what democracy is about. The Yes brigade should be out there convincing people that the treaty is a good thing. Not just putting down the no camp. The no camp are quite successfully convincing people it's a bad thing.

As a wise band once put it:

Rage against The Machine wrote:

Believin' all the lies that they're tellin' ya
Buyin' all the products that they're sellin' ya
They say jump and ya say how high
Ya brain-dead
Ya gotta ****in' bullet in ya head

Vote on the Lisbon Treaty here. (Quit yer bitchin')

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