[Diabetes] Endurance sports

robinph · 10-07-2008 02:13PM #1

This is potentially more suited to the Marathon/ Triathlon board so might want moving later on, but figured I'd try here first on the off chance there is another diabetic out there as daft as me.

I'm planning on doing the Dublin Marathon in October, I've entered it at least, but still not certain if I'm going to go through with it or not. I have done marathons before being diagnosed with diabetes so the actual running is not the issue (assuming I actually keep up with the training for a change), the last one was London in '96 the year before diagnosis, but have not run any further than the Dublin Half back in 2006 since then. I've basically just been getting through the distances I've done so far by ensuring that my sugars were a bit too high before the start of the runs and then having some extra dextrose on me incase I start to feel the need on the way round. But the marathon is just a touch further such that even "healthy" people will have issues part way round.

Just wondering if there is any other diabetics out there who have done any endurance events and how you go about ensuring you stay upright for the full distance?

How much extra supplies do you carry with you, and what/ how?

Do you stop and take a blood tests part way round? Really not keen on that idea though as would be a pain to carry the kit as well as the stop-start that it then forces you into, and if a test would even be reliable from my sweaty fingers after grabbing a Gatorade or whatever from the previous drinks station is pretty dubious as well.

robinph · 17-07-2008 09:07AM

I'm guessing that's a no then.

Any chance of a move to the marathon/ triathon board and I'll see what they come up with as far as sustainence on the move?

mike65 · 17-07-2008 09:15AM

heh! Never run for a bus never mind 26 miles so I can't comment from first hand knowledge. I guess the trick is to "frontload" long release carbs - like bananas and to carry a small number of fast acting products - which can be taken every 25 mins to boost the level.

Mike.

tbh · 17-07-2008 09:28AM

Hi Rob - I'll move to the marathon / triathlon board and leave a permanent redirect so you should get the best of both worlds. However, as far as keeping sugars high - as far as I understand it, these would be essentially useless, as if you don't have any insulin, you won't be able to metabolise them - I'm not sure if I'm right on that tho.

Stupid_Private · 17-07-2008 10:02AM

Can't say I'm too up to speed on the topic but I know you're not the only one. This is a blog by a diabetic endurance runner.

I haven't heard of Dublin doing it but I know it's done in other marathons where they let runners who need their own nutrition due to medical reasons hand it in and then it's given to them at designated water stops on the way. Could be worth looking into.

hunnymonster · 17-07-2008 10:11AM

another one worth a read
http://www.realbuzz.com/en-gb/Running_for_charity/index?pageID=333

robinph · 17-07-2008 10:33AM

Thought that you only got your own supplies at the water stations if you were one of the elite runners, but would probably be too much of a melee going on though further down the field to be able find your own supplies at the water points though.

Is it just water that they have in Dublin or do they have something stonger at some stations?

hunnymonster · 17-07-2008 11:01AM

They have energy drinks at a couple of stations and gels at one point. Unfortunately, as with a lot of marathons, you need to take the locations of the drinks stations with a pinch of salt (or in this case sugar). If I was relying on getting something at mile 20 for example, I would take my own because in reality it could arrive anytime from about mile 18 to mile 22.

MarieC · 17-07-2008 12:28PM

Why not, if you are based in Dublin or have friends/family coming to support you, get them to position themselves exactly at the mile markers that you need them and that way you can plan completely well in advance?

Peckham · 17-07-2008 12:41PM

Similar thread here on Runners World forum at the moment that may be worth checking out.

tbh · 17-07-2008 12:48PM

MarieC wrote: »

Why not, if you are based in Dublin or have friends/family coming to support you, get them to position themselves exactly at the mile markers that you need them and that way you can plan completely well in advance?

i'll volunteer if you need people

robinph · 17-07-2008 01:33PM

MarieC wrote: »

Why not, if you are based in Dublin or have friends/family coming to support you, get them to position themselves exactly at the mile markers that you need them and that way you can plan completely well in advance?

My friends are planning on running it as well, I'm just hoping to be infront of them.

@tbh: I might take you up on that offer.

tbh · 17-07-2008 01:49PM

robinph wrote: »

My friends are planning on running it as well, I'm just hoping to be infront of them.

@tbh: I might take you up on that offer.

do! I'm based in Dublin, I always say to myself "next year I'll get in training..." - this could be what I need to spur me on

novarapid · 17-07-2008 10:25PM

hi i'm the same as yourself, thinking of doing dublin too, if i get through all the training.
I'm running about 12 miles on my long runs at the moment, Check blood levels before i run and eat a small bit which is working fine at the moment.
Think it might be harder when the runs get longer. Being looking at the gels but i feel they might not be suitable, give too much of a spike in blood levels.
Find i'm getting alot of hypo's after runs and during the night too, how are you managing?

robinph · 18-07-2008 01:06PM

I've not quite got up to 12 miles for the long ones yet but I might do this weekend if all goes to plan. I've managed without any unexpected lows so far though by just making sure I'm high before I start, being at about 15mmol seems to be enough for me to run for 45/50 minutes at the moment and then I'd be at just below 4mmol at the end. So from that it looks like I'd be needing a something[/url] about every 40minutes'ish to stay upright for the full distance but I need to try some gels whilst actually running and see how that works for me yet.

I've got some PowerBar gels from GreatOutdoors, €2 quid a pop this could get expensive though. What are the ones that they would have along the marathon route, or are there some other types that are worth trying out as well?

hunnymonster · 18-07-2008 01:15PM

My favourite gels are the honeystingers because they are not full of artificial crap
http://www.honeystinger.com/products.php
Other one's are gogels. These are not as concentrated as powergels so you do not need to take water with them. I'm not sure about the sugars in any of these though.

Stupid_Private · 18-07-2008 01:28PM

robinph wrote: »

I've got some PowerBar gels from GreatOutdoors, €2 quid a pop this could get expensive though. What are the ones that they would have along the marathon route, or are there some other types that are worth trying out as well?

Don't rely on gels to be given out on the route - I think there's only about one gel place and that's at mile 20. On the day take your own gels with you.

robinph · 18-07-2008 01:34PM

Do you guys buy these online in bulk then?

hunnymonster · 18-07-2008 02:29PM

I used to but I tend not to use gels much these days. I'm in the states pretty often too and they are much cheaper there. A cheaper option is to buy one of those water bottle belts with the little bottles

and fill them with something homemade (e.g. honey, syrup)

novarapid · 19-07-2008 06:02PM

how hard is it to run with one of the water bottle carriers?

Robinph do you find your ever high after a run. sometimes before a run i'm about 6, eat an apple then after run am about 12. would adrenalin cause this.
have you changed your diet much to adjust to the training?

hunnymonster · 19-07-2008 07:29PM

novarapid wrote: »

how hard is it to run with one of the water bottle carriers?

It's not that hard but they can bounce about a bit. I'm not a huge fan but luckily I don't need much when I'm out running. There are all sorts of differnt styles. I'd go for a broad belt (less chance of chaffing) and small bottles (less weight) but I guess like clothing, it's a personal choice. Nathan is a brand that is recommended a lot.

robinph · 21-07-2008 12:42PM

novarapid wrote: »

how hard is it to run with one of the water bottle carriers?

I've got a Camelbak FlashFlo which I've been using on some runs and have found fine to run with. But thats only any good for just water really, although I do then stuff some emergency forms of sugar in there as well but have not yet needed to make use of them.

novarapid wrote: »

Robinph do you find your ever high after a run. sometimes before a run i'm about 6, eat an apple then after run am about 12. would adrenalin cause this.
have you changed your diet much to adjust to the training?

Yes, I have had that happen before and it confused me no end.

My best guess as to why it happend is when you don't actually have enough insulin in your system. Something along the lines of when exersising you'll use the sugars more efficiently so need less insulin to convert the same amount of sugar to energy, but then because your needing to convert more sugar you need more insulin is the best guess that I could come up with. It could also be something to do with fat(?) cells being converted as well but I don't think that should happen after a short exersise session and I cannot remember if the insulin is needed for that as well or not.

Anyway, I've not had that happen to me in ages now. It only seemed to occur back when I had just started running again after years of doing very little so it's possible something else changes I guess in how efficient you become at making use of the insulin. I've not really changed my doseages much, if anything I am taking a touch more though due to eating a bit more.

I do have better excuses to eat more chocolate now though so it is worth the hassle even if I don't always know why certain things happen.

Krusty_Clown · 23-07-2008 11:47AM

robinph wrote: »

I've got some PowerBar gels from GreatOutdoors, €2 quid a pop this could get expensive though. What are the ones that they would have along the marathon route, or are there some other types that are worth trying out as well?

A friend and I just bought some from a German site called MyPB24Shop and they worked out at around 1.40 each. There was postage on top of this, but as we were buying other items (performance powder, recovery drink etc) works out much cheaper than buying over here. Bought this bundle which worked out very cheap compared to Irish prices. Probably should get one or two people to buy together, to reduce postage costs.

robinph · 23-07-2008 01:37PM

Just had a look at the map for this year and it looks like about half of the water stations will have something sugary at them if it's to be belived, either Club Energise or High5 gels. I just ordered some of the High5 gel's from the UK, worked out about €1 each I think, so I can see how I get on with them.

With a few of them stuffed in my pockets and then grabbing as much as I can of anything else as I go past the water/ gel stations it should be enough ... maybe.

barrabus · 28-07-2008 11:07PM

I do a fair bit of cycling I have also done big days mountaineering in the alps and walking in mountains all over the place.

Here is my tuppence worth...
A pump is infinitely better than injections as you are able to alter you insulin with immediate effect. Some days when I was on injections I would be ill at the thought of food having eaten way more than I needed simply to keep my blood sugar up. I haven’t had this with the pump as you are able to adjust you dose there and then as opposed to adjusting your lantus in the evening before or what ever. During really intense sections of exercise when I have felt iffy I have simply disconnected the pump for a period of up to an hour, this stops a low being exacerbated .. compare this with having lantus in your system which keeps on bringing you lower and lower…

When I go out cycling I drop my basal level of insulin to 55% of my every day norm. (I came upon this percentage by trial and error). I usually tend to let my self run a little high after breakfast but this abates when the intensive work starts. When I do eat I take a small fraction of what I would normally take for the same portion. Like nearly everyone else doing endurance sports I drink a lot of lucozade sport, chew power bars and swallow gel glucose sachets. On the Wicklow 200 this year I took less than 25% of my normal daily meal time insulin and I managed to keep my blood sugar from going low (and below 10) for the entire day. I do a lot of tests during the day I can imaging this would be tougher to do during a marathon than out on a bike. I carry a certain amount of food with me on the bike but with the pump I am more confident that I won’t have a bad low, so I carry less than I used. I think an ipod arm strap would be a good place to wear a pump / carry blood test gear while running.
.

One thing I think important to remember is that if you are high during exercise this can be remedied in literally minutes by a small dose of insulin.

As an aside there is a professional diabetic bicycle racing team (Team Type One) doing the Tour of Ireland at the moment .. I am sure they have plenty of tips!

novarapid · 30-09-2008 08:58PM

hi just wanted to see how the training is going for you?
training has gone well enough for me have a 18 and 20 mile run done the last two weeks. They went well, no hypos ,blood sugars were grand after. I've started taking lucozade tables ever half hour on my long runs. i find they are better than the gels less of a spike in blood sugar levels.
find that i need to eat loads after long run, can drink a bottle of lucozade after and blood levels are still in the normal range 1 and 2 hrs later.
I find that on my shorter runs not much of a change in blood levels guess my body is getting used to running.
In general taking alot less insulin now that i'm doing alot of miles.
have done alot of reading online and it seems to me alot of people who do lots of endurance sports are using a pump.
anyway hope the training is going well

robinph · 01-10-2008 10:29AM

Well is was all going great up to the 10mile, did that in 1:09.

Then I went on three weeks holidays though, which I always knew was going to mess with the training a fair bit, but whilst I was away work decided to send me away as soon as I got back as well so missed the 1/2 and a whole load more training. Result being that I've now spent far too long not getting any more miles under the belt. I've been using the High5 gels for a while now though and they are working well for me, I just need to see how many I can manage to stuff in my shorts yet though to get me round the distance.

I know that I'm now going to struggle with the distance now though due to lack of miles in the legs, but as long as I stay upright I will get round. Just won't nessecarily be doing a decent time in this attempt.

novarapid · 01-10-2008 11:52AM

thats a pity about not getting the training done? great time for the 10 miles by the way.
have you been taking blood levels during your runs? I'm not. Have gotten on ok so far just find that its hard to bring monitor. You'll be well set to do a time in your next marathon when you know you can do one. good luck

robinph · 01-10-2008 12:33PM

I've not been testing on the way round. Too much bother to be carrying that kit as well and as I'm taking gels the results would probably get all messed up by gel on the fingers as well. Just been testing before hand, and taking some gel then if needed, and then testing again afterwards and everything seems to be approximately in order.

Bit odd testing before hand though and getting what should be a good number normally but then thinking that I had better take something before the run as it would end up being too low for me to make it all the way round.

novarapid · 01-10-2008 12:49PM

yeah tips of fingers well used to all the testing now, still find my levels are all over the place but my last HBA1c was around 7. happy enough with that considering.i'm doing cork to cobh sunday so that will give me a good idea as regards my time for dublin.

robinph · 20-10-2008 01:11PM

A few weeks ago on one of my runs I delibrately went a under the reccomended dosage of the High5 gels that they say on the packets, 1 every 20 mins, as I figured that was just them trying to get you to use as many as possible. It turned out that they were actually pretty acurate in the guestimate of how often to take them, for me at least, as with me only taking two gels during about 1:45'ish of running I had dangerously low sugars by the end of it after having a high number before the run as well. It was done deliberately though, and I had more gels on me should I have actually fallen over completely, but I needed to test actually how many I was going to need to get through and to see if I could actually sense the low sugars during the run.

I'll be trying to stuff about 9 of the gels into my shorts if I can so that I can get most of the way round and then pick up some additional ones enroute as well. The couple of short runs this week will just be to test how annoying it is having that many gels in my shorts, and how daft it looks.

novarapid · 22-10-2008 07:09PM

hey dont know what type of shorts your wearing but 9 gels seem like alot to be carrying. if you can fit em in and there is not interference while your running then its grand. You might try using safety pins through the gels and then into the waist band of your shorts, can then just pull em off as you need them. only hassle is gel goes everywhere from the pin.

best of luck monday. enjoy!

robinph · 23-10-2008 09:22AM

I've managed to get six of them in the back pocket of the short without noticing them being there, don't think I'll fit any more in though so will probably just carry a couple in my hands for the start. As I'll be getting through the things relatively quickly anyway I'll have taken them before it gets too annoying to be carrying them I think.

Still a touch concerned about what dosages to take on Monday morning though, have to take enough insulin to be able to process the sugars to get energy, but not too much that I fall over. There is also the fact that I usually take one of my long acting doseages at 10:30am each day. As that insulin would only actually start acting from Monday night/ Tuesday morning though I think I'll manage delaying that shot for a couple of hours rather than trying to stab a needle into my leg on the way round.

What time are you hoping for?

novarapid · 25-10-2008 01:41PM

i'm just going to do what i normally do before my long runs. and take the same dosage. i take levemir in the night so that wont affect me. I'm trying not to think of all the things that could go wrong. we wont be far away from an aid station if things really go pear shaped!
I'm aiming for 3.30 and if i get that i'll be delighted, going off at 8 min miles and hope for the best.
might see you after if i head for a beer with the boards gang.
best of luck

robinph · 28-10-2008 11:38AM

Well I've said my time and other pains that I'm now going through elsewhere now, but from the diabetes point of view it went easier than I had expected.

I thought that I could had really messed things up on the Sunday though as I only discovered on Sunday evening that I'd completely forgotten to take my long acting Lantus dose that morning. This resulted in me being a bit higher than ideal on Monday morning, such that if I'd queryed the situation with a doctor they would have said not to run at all, I was concered that it would mean that I'd not have enough insulin floating round my system though to deal with converting all the sugars I was about to be taking into energy though. Seems that I managed to get away with that feck up though and the fact that my long actings are actually taking in two dosages a day probably helped with keeping some kind of background level.

I was taking the High5 gels every 20 minutes on the way round, although due to my mind wandering at times I think I forgot at a couple of the 20minute points and I didn't bother with any after 3hrs as I was so close to the finish I figured it didn't matter. I think I took 8 gels in total on the way round though but lost count of how many I had due to picking up more enroute as well. The sugar levels at the end were a touch high for normal, but I reckon about perfect considering what I'd been doing that morning. I just stuck to the water at all the station though and them being in bottles was fantastic as it meant that you could really get enough liquids into you rather than it just splashing about the place from a cup, and they also seemed to be convieniently placed just after each of the 20 times that I was taking a gel at.

3:27 and big grin on my face. Now have to hope that the training has done good things for my Hba1C test that I'm due to go for in a couple of weeks as I could really do with getting a good number on that test for a change.

novarapid · 28-10-2008 06:11PM

well did it in 3.27 aswell, what are the chances of that.i'm delighted with that.
No probs going around, ate my normal breakfast and took my tablets every 5 miles. Just took the water at the aid stations aswell. twas great to have the small bottles.
the last 6 miles were my slowest, didnt stop even though i wanted to. was shattered after it, the walk back to hotel was painful, blood level was 8.2 after the race. had to eat alot the rest of the day to stop going low. still sore today.
really i dont think the diabetes had much of an affect on me either, hope the Hba1 is good for me too
take it easy

robinph · 29-10-2008 10:31AM

Fantastic stuff. Weird that we both got the same time.

[Diabetes] Endurance sports

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