Englishman wins Irish race case

digitally-yours · 12-08-2008 10:25AM #1

Would you consider this "racial abuse" ? and is it common ?

I saw this happening everywhere in my office and no one took offence.

An English pipe fitter has been awarded 20,000 euro (£15,630) in compensation after being racially abused in his Irish workplace.

The man, who was based in Dublin, complained that colleagues had taunted him because of where he came from.

They would say "send the Brit in" to clear the way if they had to enter potentially dangerous spaces at work.

Negative reports about England's performance in the 2006 World Cup were also read aloud in his presence.

He said some colleagues never spoke to him and others deliberately sang Irish songs of a political nature in his presence.

The man, who asked to remain anonymous, told an equality tribunal that shortly after joining the firm in April 2006 the abuse reached a point where he ate lunch in his car instead of the canteen.

Redundancy

He claimed that two months after starting work he was made redundant instead of a less experienced Irish worker because he was British.

The tribunal was told another worker said "the Brit should be sacked and an Irishman should not be let go" when the issue arose.

He said his supervisor was intimidating and had joined in with the abuse.

The company denied allegations of harassment and said the man had never complained to his site manager about abuse.

It also said the man was laid off because he had less service than other workers on the site.

The equality tribunal found the man was racially harassed and said some of the acts complained about were of a blatant and intimidatory nature.

But it ruled the man was not chosen for redundancy because of his nationality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555589.stm

funk-you · 12-08-2008 10:30AM

I'd definitely consider it racial abuse. I was on the other side of it when i worked in London for three years.

-Funk

seamus · 12-08-2008 10:31AM

Switch it around, pretend that it was a British workplace and replace all instances of "Brit" with "Paddy" and then decide if you think it was OK.

While gentle jibes between the Irish and British (with both giving and receiving) would be commonplace enough, that article describes downright bullying and victimisation of one person.

I wouldn't technically consider it "racist", but afaik any kind of discrimination on the grounds of nationality is considered racism and racial abuse.

It's the kind of mentality I'd expect on some construction sites though TBH. Guys who think they're being funny but have no idea where the line is between being funny and original and being a complete moronic bully.

dade · 12-08-2008 10:32AM

yeah it' sabuse but sure teh irish lads where probably giving back what irish guys faced in teh UK and abroad

Adam · 12-08-2008 10:32AM

seamus wrote: »

Switch it around, pretend that it was a British workplace and replace all instances of "Brit" with "Paddy" and then decide if you think it was OK.

While gentle jibes between the Irish and British (with both giving and receiving) would be commonplace enough, that article describes downright bullying and victimisation of one person.

I wouldn't technically consider it "racist", but afaik any kind of discrimination on the grounds of nationality is considered racism and racial abuse.

It's the kind of mentality I'd expect on some construction sites though TBH. Guys who think they're being funny but have no idea where the line is between being funny and original and being a complete moronic bully.

You took the words and all that, thanks to you sir.

javaboy · 12-08-2008 10:32AM

Since when do the English people belong to a different race to the Irish people? It's not racist. It's discimination based on nationality, not race.

"Irish men win compensation after being incorrectly labelled as racists in recent discrimination case."

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:33AM

After a good few hundred years of abuse from England I believe we should be allowed this (mild) abuse. This sounds like gentle jibbing nothing more.

Adam · 12-08-2008 10:34AM

R0ot wrote: »

After a good few hundred years of abuse from England I believe we should be allowed this (mild) abuse. This sounds like gentle jibbing nothing more.

Yep, that'll make it all go away eventually, as soon as the scale tips even in ohhhh, say 800 years? :rolleyes:

radiospan · 12-08-2008 10:35AM

I think in work harassment cases, it doesn't matter if the Irish lads just saw it as "a bit of craic". If the English guy was offended, and made this clear to them, then if they kept doing it anyway, then yeah that's racial abuse. (I dunno if 'racial' is the right word, but definitely abuse)

Especially reading the rest of the article. Seems like he was fired just for being English.

I don't think things like "ah but sure 800 years" would hold up in a tribunal.

robinph · 12-08-2008 10:36AM

javaboy wrote: »

Since when do the English people belong to a different race to the Irish people? It's not racist. It's discimination based on nationality, not race.

Racist is just a popular catch all term for it though, it's still abuse though and there would be plenty of people complaining here if it was the other way round.

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:36AM

Mordeth kthxbai! wrote: »

Yep, that'll make it all go away eventually, as soon as the scale tips even in ohhhh, say 800 years? :rolleyes:

After they give us the north, hand over Scotland and Wales and leave the land known as England and go live with the French, then we can call it even. :pac:

brianthebard · 12-08-2008 10:37AM

It might be bullying,which is still serious in fairness,but its not racist.

javaboy · 12-08-2008 10:37AM

R0ot wrote: »

After a good few hundred years of abuse from England I believe we should be allowed this (mild) abuse. This sounds like gentle jibbing nothing more.

It sounds like it was on a fairly constant basis though. If it was just good natured stuff, why did he go as far as to eat his lunch in his car?

imo they crossed the line between good natured jibing (like slagging the English football team etc.) and ongoing bullying. The hundreds of years of abuse the Irish suffered shouldn't really figure into it as I assume this guy had very little to do with it.

funk-you · 12-08-2008 10:37AM

R0ot wrote: »

After a good few hundred years of abuse from England I believe we should be allowed this (mild) abuse.

Is this one guy responsible for those years?

R0ot wrote: »

This sounds like gentle jibbing nothing more.

Anything can be 'gentle jibbing' until it happens all the time every day. Try being on the receiving end. You go to work to do a job, not get abuse of any kind.

-Funk

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:38AM

funk-you wrote: »

Is this one guy responsible for those years?

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

BKtje · 12-08-2008 10:39AM

Sounds like abuse to me. Not so much what was said but what seems like the continuing nature of it.

yeah it' sabuse but sure teh irish lads where probably giving back what irish guys faced in teh UK and abroad

Doesn't make it right in either case.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 12-08-2008 10:39AM

I'm not a member of the infamous PC brigade, but these guys sound like a bunch of witless assholes tbh.
If a workmate eating his lunch in his car isn't a clue that the "joke" has gone too far, then you need your head examined.

Enjoy your 20 grand bud.

javaboy · 12-08-2008 10:41AM

robinph wrote: »

Racist is just a popular catch all term for it though, it's still abuse though and there would be plenty of people complaining here if it was the other way round.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying what happened was right. I think it sounds like he had a perfectly good case but it should be called discrimination, not racism.

Racism is a lazy catch all term imo. I would expect an equality tribunal to at least use the correct term.

funk-you · 12-08-2008 10:41AM

R0ot wrote: »

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i've heard in a while. Thanks for that.

-Funk

Malari · 12-08-2008 10:42AM

So what constitutes racial abuse? I think it's racial. British people share a common language, culture, history and the Irish don't share all these things with them. Sure there are obvious similarities too, but what's the cut-off point for race? Colour? Religion?

Mossy Monk · 12-08-2008 10:43AM

Nice payout.

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:44AM

funk-you wrote: »

Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i've heard in a while. Thanks for that.

-Funk

I'll agree that these guys took a joke too far and the guy deserves his winnings from the case, but calling it a racist act is retarded, case of bullying yes but not racism. Saying that I personally feel that England as a whole still owe the Irish an apology for the "**** that went down" :pac:

javaboy · 12-08-2008 10:44AM

R0ot wrote: »

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

So individual Americans should be victimised for the actions of their government in Iraq and so on?

Claire121 · 12-08-2008 10:46AM

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

Why on earth would you be blaming random English people for something that happened in the past? People like you make me sick. If you're going to be a bigot, stand up and admit it, don't try to justify it with some pathetic excuse.

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:46AM

javaboy wrote: »

So individual Americans should be victimised for the actions of their government in Iraq and so on?

No individual Americans that voted for George Bush and his administration should though. :pac:

seamus · 12-08-2008 10:46AM

javaboy wrote: »

Since when do the English people belong to a different race to the Irish people? It's not racist. It's discimination based on nationality, not race.

As I pointed out, it's probably more of a catch-all term. Otherwise you'd call it nationalism....which actually means something else.

R0ot wrote: »

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

What would that accomplish? I suppose that everyone is responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. I suppose an American would be justified if he came over here and called us a bunch of thieving, drunken leprechauns and continued to do so until we apologise for emigrating to his country?
Cop on. Countries do stuff. They **** up. They doesn't mean that the entire country is responsible for that **** up until the end of time. There is no-one alive today who ever had any part whatsoever in organising or otherwise aiding the occupation of Ireland by Britain. So therefore there is no-one left who can "apologise".

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

If a workmate eating his lunch in his car isn't a clue that the "joke" has gone too far, then you need your head examined.

+1
It should even be apparent way before that. If someone isn't getting involved in the banter and slagging you back, then you apologise and stfu.

Adam · 12-08-2008 10:47AM

R0ot wrote: »

After they give us the north, hand over Scotland and Wales and leave the land known as England and go live with the French, then we can call it even. :pac:

Actually, that would be fantastic!!

But ho, there are grave matters at hand, englishmen being laid off, we must not speak of such things...

javaboy · 12-08-2008 10:50AM

R0ot wrote: »

No individual Americans that voted for George Bush and his administration should though. :pac:

Make up your mind will you? All English people can be punished for the sins of their government (past or present) but only those Americans who actually voted for George Bush can be blamed for their government's actions? :pac:

keane2097 · 12-08-2008 10:51AM

I actually voted that it was just craic, but having read some of your comments about imagining it was happening an Irish person in England I've changed my mind...

AS has been said, a bit of banter is grand but it can go too far...

Homer · 12-08-2008 10:56AM

Lets' call a spade a spade... It's ridiculous, he never complained to his site manager while all this was going on and only after he got let go did he complain?!
So it was not so much the alleged comments and intimidation I would say as the fact it was sour grapes because he was laid off.
The Irish put up with dogs abuse for years in the UK and didn't go running to employment tribunals violins in hand...
Get another job and get on with your life..

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2008 10:56AM

R0ot wrote: »

I'll agree that these guys took a joke too far and the guy deserves his winnings from the case, but calling it a racist act is retarded, case of bullying yes but not racism. Saying that I personally feel that England as a whole still owe the Irish an apology for the "**** that went down" :pac:

OK, can I hold you personally responsible for everything the IRA has done? it was done in your name so why not?

Why is it only the English that owe the irish an apology, what about the Scots or the Welsh? what about the apology the Irish settlers owe the native americans for taking their lands?

stop acting the victim and join the rest of us in the 21st century

super_furry · 12-08-2008 10:56AM

R0ot wrote: »

No the entire monarchy and government are and when they publicly apologise i'll leave the rest of the English alone.

To you personally? Although I suppose Tony Blair did have a hand in that whole Cromwell business.

Anyway, we're losing sight of the real enemy here, those bloody Scandinavians. Feckin' Vikings coming over here, taking our land and eating our babies!

fitz0 · 12-08-2008 10:59AM

I see it as taking the piss really. He seems to not be very thick skinned. Id say him eating his lunch in his car just egged on the fellas doing the pisstaking. If he ignored it Id say they would have stopped after a while. Ive had people take the piss of me, maybe not in such a way, but Ill always take it in good humour and give as good as I get. As for this being racism thats just sh*tetalk.

R0ot · 12-08-2008 10:59AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what about the apology the Irish settlers owe the native americans for taking their lands?

I'm sorry.... WHAT?!

dlofnep · 12-08-2008 10:59AM

Tbh, it was probably out of order. But it's no different than the 1000's of Irish workers over the years who have been victimized in England. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, that's for sure.

super_furry · 12-08-2008 11:01AM

R0ot wrote: »

I'm sorry.... WHAT?!

Have you never seen Far and Away? Still, good of you to apologise, although it should be Brian Cowen really. Or Mary McAleese.

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2008 11:02AM

it's difficult to judge this unless you see what the guy went through first hand.

I had plenty of abuse when Ireland beat England at Croke Park and i gave plenty back when we whooped you asses at Twickenham:D.

I also get plenty of stick about the England football team, although I considered it unfair to give any back about the Irish team, it's kind of like mocking the afflicted.:D

that's all fine to me and I have no problem with that. however, you do meet people, just the odd one or two, who have a real chip on their shoulder about the English and they will make a point of raising it as an issue at every possible opportunity. If this happens in the work place then t is an issue your employer needs to deal with, if your supervisor is one of those with the issue, what are you supposed to do?

Latchy · 12-08-2008 11:02AM

The guy obiously felt intimidated enough to sit out in his car eating lunch .

Reminds me of that very old British film with Richard Attenborough ,think it was called ' the silence ' were due to his stand on a particular issue he is isolated from his work mates who totally blank him out .

He cracks up in the end :pac:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 12-08-2008 11:04AM

R0ot wrote: »

I'm sorry.... WHAT?!

you know, the genocide on the american continent?

'the only good injun is a dead injun' fine words, by a fine irish poet.

dade · 12-08-2008 11:04AM

B-K-DzR wrote: »

Sounds like abuse to me. Not so much what was said but what seems like the continuing nature of it.

Doesn't make it right in either case.

never said it did, what i mean t was the lads giving the abuse may have been on the receiving end while they worked abroad. i agree that initially it may have been in jest but to continue at it and the "send the Brit in" comments when there was danger or the "sack the brit before any Irish" comment that was alleged to have been made are wrong 100%. i think that the companys excuse that he was less skilled may have held some water if taken alone but when the rest of the work situation like the comments and abuse are added it's difficult not to assume he was sacked because of his nationality.

the question i would ask is did he make any formal complaints to his manager/employer about thus abuse? did he report it to his union official (if there was one) and if so why was nothing done? and if he didn't report it then i think he pulled the race card when he was sacked due to his possible lack of skill

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2008 11:04AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Tbh, it was probably out of order. But it's no different than the 1000's of Irish workers over the years who have been victimized in England. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, that's for sure.

me neither.

seamus · 12-08-2008 11:05AM

Homer wrote: »

Lets' call a spade a spade... It's ridiculous, he never complained to his site manager while all this was going on and only after he got let go did he complain?!

Well, if all of your colleagues are slagging you about your nationality and your supervisor is joining in, how eager would you be to go to the site manager?

The Irish put up with dogs abuse for years in the UK and didn't go running to employment tribunals violins in hand...

You're not the only one to say this, but I don't see how it has any bearing whatsoever.

That's like saying, "Ah shure we used to have 6 pints and drive home all the time back in the seventies, why bother stopping us from doing it now?".

Just because something used to be accepted or ignored, that doesn't mean it's OK now.

StormWarrior · 12-08-2008 11:06AM

I'm sure that if it was Brits saying this stuff about an Irishman, there would be plenty of people on here moaning about it.

Nolanger · 12-08-2008 11:07AM

With this recession hopefully those racist tossers will all lose their jobs soon -shame on the foreman for joining in.

R0ot · 12-08-2008 11:09AM

|-*SxyDubGrrl93*-| wrote: »

you know, the genocide on the american continent?

'the only good injun is a dead injun' fine words, by a fine irish poet.

Strangely enough mord I do, but I prefer another version of it. :rolleyes:

Grudaire · 12-08-2008 11:09AM

Damn it I've worked in Mayo, and they keep calling me jackeen, and when they won two years ago... well lets just say they're still talking about it....

I'm afraid to wear a Dublin jersey to work

Do I get money?? - Or as Mr T says: "Get some nuts"

Dudess · 12-08-2008 11:10AM

dade wrote: »

yeah it' sabuse but sure teh irish lads where probably giving back what irish guys faced in teh UK and abroad

Oh, that's all right so. This English guy should be a target of abuse on the grounds of his nationality... cuz his fellow countrymen did the same to Irish lads in the 80s.

Earthhorse · 12-08-2008 11:10AM

seamus wrote: »

Guys who think they're being funny but have no idea where the line is between being funny and original and being a complete moronic bully.

Bit like Thunderdome then?

OMG, DID I JUST SAY THAT? CAN...WORMS...EVERYWHERE!

Homer wrote: »

Lets' call a spade a spade...

Now that's racism.

Defenestrate · 12-08-2008 11:13AM

The poor guy had to go eat in his car he was so miserable, he was clearly bullied.

Why should he pay for the crimes of other people just because he was born on the same lump of rock as them?

dade · 12-08-2008 11:13AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh, that's all right so. This English guy should be a target of abuse on the grounds of his nationality... cuz his fellow countrymen did the same to Irish lads in the 80s.

what i meant was the irish lads may have felt justified for this reason. i never said they where right. i believe i said it was abuse.

dlofnep · 12-08-2008 11:17AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh, that's all right so. This English guy should be a target of abuse on the grounds of his nationality... cuz his fellow countrymen did the same to Irish lads in the 80s.

No, he should be a target of abuse for his silly accent.

Nah, seriously though - it was probably out of order like I said. I work with alot of English people and I haven't seen them ever ridiculed here, and I wouldn't personally ridicule anyone for their nationality.

But this is totally been blown out of proportion. Where's all the news stories for the lads over in England who are still to this very day, been taunted with abuse. "Fenians, Paddies, Micks" etc.. It's only important when it's someone from England being abused, but if it was the other way around in England - it would be a "harmless bit of fun".

Building sites are known for their humour and cheap digs at each other. The short guy was probably called a hobbit, the fat guy was probably called Fat Arnold, the guy with the long face was called Horse, and the English guy was called whatever.

I'm willing to bet that every single person there was slagged at one point or another. This is just typical media blowing things out of proportion.

Englishman wins Irish race case

"send the Brit in" 182 votes

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