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The Dole

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Comments

  • #92
    Économiste Monétaire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    you have that emlement but where the plan really shines is that small businesses may be able to expand when otherwise they may have been constrained by cashflow.....the person will create a job for themselves over the 3mts...
    You assume that the unemployed person will have the skills required to do the job thus enabling the business to expand.


  • #93
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    you have that emlement but where the plan really shines is that small businesses may be able to expand when otherwise they may have been constrained by cashflow.....the person will create a job for themselves over the 3mts...

    But there is no guarantee that the business will keep that person on. The only real benefit I see is for the business itself, in getting three months free labour. It potentially keeps one extra person on the live register (the person who could have gotten the paid job), which doubles the cost for the exchequer (two instead of one), and keeps unemployment figures artificially inflated. Sorry, I'm just not convinced.


  • #94
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    UCD_Econ wrote: »
    You assume that the unemployed person will have the skills required to do the job thus enabling the business to expand.

    No experience required, there are any amount of employers willing to take on someone with no experience especially when they are of little cost....

    I think the pros outway the cons....


  • #95
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    But there is no guarantee that the business will keep that person on. The only real benefit I see is for the business itself, in getting three months free labour. It potentially keeps one extra person on the live register (the person who could have gotten the paid job), which doubles the cost for the exchequer (two instead of one), and keeps unemployment figures artificially inflated. Sorry, I'm just not convinced.


    At the moment business get's no benifit from the dole cue, this way business will benifit and the unemployed will be upskilled.
    Maybe only 10% of the peope on the dole will gain employment after 3mts but if we can repeat that figure every 3 mts for the next few years it will be of a real benifit to everyone...


  • #96
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    At the moment business get's no benifit from the dole cue, this way business will benifit and the unemployed will be upskilled.
    Maybe only 10% of the peope on the dole will gain employment after 3mts but if we can repeat that figure every 3 mts for the next few years it will be of a real benifit to everyone...

    You are choosing to ignore the most salient point. Each time a person is hired in this voluntary role, another person will be denied a paid position. This proposal will solve nothing in terms of the dole queue. You are simply pulling one person out of it and replacing them with another. Except that according to the statisticians, both people are unemployed, because both are on the live register, thus increasing the unemployment rate.


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  • #97
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    You are choosing to ignore the most salient point. Each time a person is hired in this voluntary role, another person will be denied a paid position. This proposal will solve nothing in terms of the dole queue. You are simply pulling one person out of it and replacing them with another. Except that according to the statisticians, both people are unemployed, because both are on the live register, thus increasing the unemployment rate.

    A paid person will not be denied a new position, if we make a rule that only buinesses who have not taken on a new position within 6mts are eligable for the benifit....i.e only business with the potential to create new employment can participate....(who otherwise wouldn't)


  • #98
    Économiste Monétaire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    So what happens during the three months when they have 'free labour' - People will be denied work because why hire, and pay, someone when you can get it for free? The system doesn't work - and a slightly similar idea is already operating in the work placement scheme in FAS.

    Employers would take the labour, paid for by the Social Welfare, and then dump them, why would they pay e1/hr over minimum wage? Hire person on JA - wait 3 months, then hire someone at minimum wage.


  • #99
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    UCD_Econ wrote: »
    Source?

    If you seriously need a "source" to confirm that the lowest paid jobs in this land are filled by foreigners I'd suggest you consider using your own eyes; that's the best "source" you're likely to get.
    UCD_Econ wrote: »
    Do you think Irish people are turned away from jobs at this rate or simply avoid them?

    They avoid them, and they avoid them because, unlike economic migrants, Irish people cannot send home two or three euros out of each minimum wage hours work and expect to feed a family on it.


  • #100
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    suckslikeafox wrote: »
    The naivety of some people is incredible, do you actually expect employers to pay more wages than they have to

    I am not advocating employers paying more wages than they have to. I am expressing my disgust at their attempts to pay LESS than they currently have to, which is scarcely enough to keep an Irish family off the streets as it is.

    Would you like to see your family try to survive on just over 300 euros a week? How do you think you'd get on?


  • #101
    Économiste Monétaire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    If you seriously need a "source" to confirm that the lowest paid jobs in this land are filled by foreigners I'd suggest you consider using your own eyes; that's the best "source" you're likely to get.
    I asked for a source for the idea that there is a negative correlation between the minimum wage and the unemployment rate (the ‘Irish’ people); it was facetious request because the assumption is comical. As an aside, I find it disturbing that you segregate people in the dole queue by nationality implying some kind of right to a job over others.

    My eyes now rank above all forms of hypothesis testing – hehe.
    They avoid them, and they avoid them because, unlike economic migrants, Irish people cannot send home two or three euros out of each minimum wage hours work and expect to feed a family on it.
    And you’re complaining against the market clearing wage because? Who would you like to see do the work of the migrants? People make choices in life. Working for the minimum wage is one of them – don’t like it? Enter a program of retraining, become a skilled worker. No one is owed a living. Why would someone make a choice to have a ‘family’ (kids, cats, dogs, gold fish, etc) while working on the minimum wage...


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  • #102
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    but how do we keep everyone happy...

    Suggest any person over 3mts unemployed has to start voluntary work for any employer (no experience required) for the following 3mts (29hrs per week, that gives them 10hrs per week for job hunting) ....any employer has access to your cv while your on the dole, after 10 weeks..

    The employer has the gift of free staff for 3mts and the person on the dole has gained some usefull (off career/career) experience and the potential of a full time job...(the employer can pay the employee if they so wish but it's not mandatory)

    If the employer wants to keep the person after 3mts they give them an extra ?1+ph over the minimum wage as a thank you for working for free(people on the dole will be still getting all there full welfare entitlements over the 3mts, if it dosen't work out after the first 3mts, they go back on the dole and so on and so forth)

    This would save a bucket of money and ensure tax payers are getting good value for money out of our public investment, business will boom, employment figures will fall.....everyones a winner:)


    if only you could kick ideas in the balls..


  • #103
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    OP. i work a 25k job rite now in an office. needed my degree to get it. word is we could be made redundant really soon. do i deserve less than 200euro a week?


  • #104
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    sock.rocker* wrote: »
    OP. i work a 25k job rite now in an office. needed my degree to get it. word is we could be made redundant really soon. do i deserve less than 200euro a week?

    So you just intend to sit at home when you get laid off?

    And standard practice is to offer employees redundancy packages...which should cover you while you get a new job.


  • #105
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    Sean_K wrote: »
    So you just intend to sit at home when you get laid off?

    And standard practice is to offer employees redundancy packages...which should cover you while you get a new job.

    i had a week of last week sick and was demented by the end of it with boredom.. couldn't wait to get back. so no, not gonna sit around.

    but redundancy would mean relocating to dublin. and i'm not ready to do that yet.


  • #106
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    sock.rocker* wrote: »
    i had a week of last week sick and was demented by the end of it with boredom.. couldn't wait to get back. so no, not gonna sit around.

    but redundancy would mean relocating to dublin. and i'm not ready to do that yet.

    er, if you had a week off in Dublin I doubt very much you'd be bored, get up there and get your rocks off!!


  • #107
    utick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭utick


    UCD_Econ wrote: »
    Report him to Social Welfare - he won't find out who did it. You'll have a laugh and he'll get fined :)

    with friends like u who needs enemies


  • #108
    Économiste Monétaire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    utick wrote: »
    with friends like u who needs enemies
    Thanks for your economic insight to the OP's thoughts.


  • #109
    Tony Broke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Tony Broke


    sock.rocker* wrote: »
    OP. i work a 25k job rite now in an office. needed my degree to get it. word is we could be made redundant really soon. do i deserve less than 200euro a week?

    You wouldnt be on the dole, you have your stamp.

    Sorry to hear you may be outta work in a while.A friend of mine got laid off 2 years back and learned spanish on his time off.It worked out great for him.


  • #110
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Its funny looking at this now but things are getting worse!


  • #111
    Tony Broke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Tony Broke


    Économiste Monétaire wrote: »
    Why do you assume it is not their fault? Those who remain in an unskilled profession must accept that job security isn't anywhere near certain.

    This one is brillant, it really highlights how naive/gullible we all have been :pac:

    im on about skilled workers btw.


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  • #112
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    This thread has isn't going to shine any new light.


This discussion has been closed.
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