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Obliged to search for a lost ball?

  • 10-09-2008 08:33AM
    #1
    arg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭


    Say you tee off and the ball travels 20 yards into thick heather/rough (would be very diffuclt to find) are you obliged to search for the ball? Can you assume its lost and play your next shot from the tee?


Comments

  • #2
    stevire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭stevire


    arg wrote: »
    Say you tee off and the ball travels 20 yards into thick heather/rough (would be very diffuclt to find) are you obliged to search for the ball? Can you assume its lost and play your next shot from the tee?

    Check out this thread....

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055373747

    Your best option is to play a provisional before you move off the tee... Then go have a quick look for your ball, if you find it and its not as bad as you thought then play it without dropping a shot if possible...

    Otherwise proceed with playing the provisional...

    To answer your question, as far as I know, its up to the player to decide if its lost or not... Or if they exceed the 5 min search rule


  • #3
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    You don't have to look for it. Once you play another from the tee without declaring it a provisional then that ball becomes the ball in play.
    If you do declare it a provisional, once you make a stroke at it from a point nearer the hole than the original is likely to be, then it becomes the ball in play (assuming the original wasn't found before you made the stroke).
    If you don't look but others do and find a ball, you are obliged to identify it and if it is yours you must play it (or declare unplayable and proceed etc)


  • #4
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    But no, you're not obliged to look. It's a moot point because no matter where your ball goes, whether you can find it or not, you can choose to play again from the inital spot under the usual lost-ball/OB/unplayable penalty.

    If you find it, you can declare it unplayable. If you can't find it, it's lost. Same next steps apply.

    If you did find it though, and declared it unplayable, you would have the 2 additional options of dropping within two club lengths under penalty of 1 stroke (if that gets you out of the sh*t), or, taking the flag->ball line and going back on it as far as you wish, again dropping under penalty.

    Either of these options could leave you a shorter shot than going all the way back so they're worth knowing.


  • #5
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Not strictly correct afik.

    There was an incident in the South of Ireland some years ago.

    Tight match.. par 3.. player A gets close to the green
    player B hooks into thick heather/gorse.
    player B then plays provo and ends up 3 ft from the pin.

    Player B then did not want to look for the first ball(obviously) but the gallery found it and as far as I know he then had to play it.

    Incident went to the rules comittee of the R&A I believe.
    I think Arthur Pierse of Tipperary was one of the players.

    So that would lead me to believe that in matchplay anyway, anyway, a player just cannot declare a ball "lost".
    The opponent is entitled to search and if found within 5 mins must be played.


  • #6
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Sorry looks like Licksey and SS had covered those points in the two previous posts..... carry on:p


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  • #7
    Paulusmaximus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭Paulusmaximus


    simple rule is you can declare your ball lost at any time but your playing partners are entitled to look for the ball if they so wish. If they find the ball within five minutes the original ball becomes the ball in play.

    If it is in an unplayable lie, the 2nd ball you have hit from the tee is now out of play and you have the three options that SS spoke about, two club lengths, back as far as you like keeping point between you and the hole or going back and dropping/reteeing.

    If anyone is really interested in thet rules of golf, don't bother with the rules of golf but get the Decisions book. It is a big book that basically gives you every possible decision that you could imagine. I've yet to come accross anything that isn't covered in it.


  • #8
    arg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭arg


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Not strictly correct afik.

    There was an incident in the South of Ireland some years ago.

    Tight match.. par 3.. player A gets close to the green
    player B hooks into thick heather/gorse.
    player B then plays provo and ends up 3 ft from the pin.

    Player B then did not want to look for the first ball(obviously) but the gallery found it and as far as I know he then had to play it.

    Incident went to the rules comittee of the R&A I believe.
    I think Arthur Pierse of Tipperary was one of the players.

    So that would lead me to believe that in matchplay anyway, anyway, a player just cannot declare a ball "lost".
    The opponent is entitled to search and if found within 5 mins must be played.
    Could player B have declared the first ball as unplayable and use his provisional?


  • #9
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    No.

    Previous poster covered that.

    Once the ball was found it becomes the ball in play and the provo is then out of play..


  • #10
    stockdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    You can just declare the original lost and hit another ball without declaring it provisional before anyone has time to look for the original ball.

    As for the original question. It would probably be better to play a provisional. Then if and when you find your original ball you can make the decision. If you feel you can gain an advantage (fairly) then play the original ball. If not and there's a risk that you may bury the ball into the gorse then declare it unplayable. You then have the option to drop or to replay the shot from the tee and since you've already played your provisional then that will be in play if you decide to take the option of replaying the shot.


  • #11
    markie4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭markie4


    stockdam wrote: »
    If not and there's a risk that you may bury the ball into the gorse then declare it unplayable. You then have the option to drop or to replay the shot from the tee and since you've already played your provisional then that will be in play if you decide to take the option of replaying the shot.

    I'm a bit confused now. If you find the original ball, then surely it's the one in play and the provisional was never in play, yes?
    You then declare your original ball unplayable. Surely you're into a (new) situation and if you choose to replay your tee-shot, you have go back to replay your shot from the tee, rather than selecting the prov. The provisional being out of play from the moment the original ball was found.

    If someone could clarify, I'd be very grateful


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  • #12
    OilBeefHooked2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭OilBeefHooked2


    markie4 wrote: »
    I'm a bit confused now. If you find the original ball, then surely it's the one in play and the provisional was never in play, yes?
    You then declare your original ball unplayable. Surely you're into a (new) situation and if you choose to replay your tee-shot, you have go back to replay your shot from the tee, rather than selecting the prov. The provisional being out of play from the moment the original ball was found.

    If someone could clarify, I'd be very grateful
    Your options are as follows when/if you find your oringinal ball, firstly your provisional is no longer in play, you must play your original ball if found.
    Then your options are you can replay from the spot you last played from, you can declare it unplayable and take a 2 club lenght drop or finally you can drop back as far as you like keeping the point where you found your ball and the flag in line.


  • #13
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    stockdam wrote: »
    You can just declare the original lost and hit another ball without declaring it provisional before anyone has time to look for the original ball.

    As for the original question. It would probably be better to play a provisional. Then if and when you find your original ball you can make the decision. If you feel you can gain an advantage (fairly) then play the original ball. If not and there's a risk that you may bury the ball into the gorse then declare it unplayable. You then have the option to drop or to replay the shot from the tee and since you've already played your provisional then that will be in play if you decide to take the option of replaying the shot.


    The " that" refers to the original ball ... jaysus don't be confusing people


  • #14
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    Another consideration....
    Say you make a balls of your first shot into a gorse bush, playing a provisional immediately affords you the luxury to some extent of a greater option.
    If your provisional is good, you may decide to ignore the first ball and continue to play the provisional until it becomes the ball in play (of course, assuming no one looks for and finds the original as posted above).
    If you also make a balls of your provisional, maybe into the trees, you might be more inclined to search thoroughly for the original, find it and then either proceed to play it or declare it unplayable and proceed under the options (also listed above).

    Basically what I'm saying is if your provo is good, you MAY consider not looking for the original but if it is bad and you find the original you will get a further attempt to hit a decent ball off the tee.

    This won't always apply but sometimes it might.... say on a right to left hole with trees and heavy undergrowth on the right and OOB beyond those trees.... You may not have an option to drop within 2 clublengths or keep the flag in line (well you could but not to any advantage) so going back to the tee is realistically your only option. If your provisional is down the middle it would be prudent not to search for the original.


  • #15
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    stockdam wrote: »
    You can just declare the original lost and hit another ball without declaring it provisional before anyone has time to look for the original ball.

    As for the original question. It would probably be better to play a provisional. Then if and when you find your original ball you can make the decision. If you feel you can gain an advantage (fairly) then play the original ball. If not and there's a risk that you may bury the ball into the gorse then declare it unplayable. You then have the option to drop or to replay the shot from the tee and since you've already played your provisional then that will be in play if you decide to take the option of replaying the shot.

    Stockdam, (this isn't correct assuming I understand you properly)
    Once you find the original, the provisional is irrelevant... it is nothing.
    If the original is found and unplayable and you have happened to hit a provisional 350 yards down the middle, you still MUST either drop within 2 club lengths of the unplayable original OR keep the ball and flag in line and go back on this line as far as you like OR go back to the tee and re-hit, remembering to ruefully pick up the irrelevant provisional on your way past, while probably getting ready to hit your 5th shot from the bunker ;)


  • #16
    stockdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    The " that" refers to the original ball ... jaysus don't be confusing people

    Yes sorry I didn't read my post.

    Once you find your original ball then your provisional is out of play and you then have the different options with your original ball.


  • #17
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    So, new scenario.

    I'm playing a match.
    My opponent duffs it into a bush 20 yards off the tee (it's the Pierce Purcell!;))
    He then declares 'Provisional' and booms this one 300 yards down the fairway.
    He then declares his first ball lost, and wants to play his 4th from 300yards down the fairway.

    Question:
    Do I have the right to look for his ball for 5 minutes, even if he doesn't want to? The aim here is to hopefully find his ball, and assuming he still doesn't want to play it, make him go back and hit a 3rd drive, which hopefully won't also be 300yards down the middle!

    I'm assuming the answer to this is yes, not that I'd do it myself, was just wondering!


  • #18
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Paul or Licksy,

    It's never come up during play for me, but before reading your posts I'd never considered that a provisional would only be a provision for a lost or OOB ball - and not an unplayable one.

    Given that the whole idea of the provisional is to speed up the process, I'm surprised at this.

    Anyway, I've no idea what the actual rule is, just wanted to double check if you guys are sure about this?

    Definitely one worth knowing, especially for matchplay.


  • #19
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    One Cold Hand wrote: »
    So, new scenario.

    I'm playing a match.
    My opponent duffs it into a bush 20 yards off the tee (it's the Pierce Purcell!;))
    He then declares 'Provisional' and booms this one 300 yards down the fairway.
    He then declares his first ball lost, and wants to play his 4th from 300yards down the fairway.

    Question:
    Do I have the right to look for his ball for 5 minutes, even if he doesn't want to? The aim here is to hopefully find his ball, and assuming he still doesn't want to play it, make him go back and hit a 3rd drive, which hopefully won't also be 300yards down the middle!

    I'm assuming the answer to this is yes, not that I'd do it myself, was just wondering!

    Answer is yes.


  • #20
    Paulusmaximus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭Paulusmaximus


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    Paul or Licksy,

    It's never come up during play for me, but before reading your posts I'd never considered that a provisional would only be a provision for a lost or OOB ball - and not an unplayable one.

    Given that the whole idea of the provisional is to speed up the process, I'm surprised at this.

    Anyway, I've no idea what the actual rule is, just wanted to double check if you guys are sure about this?

    Definitely one worth knowing, especially for matchplay.

    100% positive. My interpretation of it is, would be to do with your mindset when you hit a provisional. When you are pretty sure that it is going to be lost or OOB than you know that this is going to be your third shot. When you have hit it into long grass, bush, and you may get, you hit a provisional "just in case". the majority of the time, when you find your ball and its unplayable it would have been scenario two so you have hit a third shot with less than the normal "pressures". This is only my interpretation of why it is this way.

    Edit to say:

    From the rules of Golf, Sectin 27-2c When Provisional Ball to be abandoned

    "If the original ball is neither lost nor Out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue play with the original ball"


  • #21
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    Not exactly sure what you mean... You can only play a provisional when you believe there is a great chance that your ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be OOB.
    In my scenario of the heavy undergrowth on a right to left hole, there would be a reasonable likelihood that the ball wouldn't be found.. and if it was found there would be a virtual certainty that the only real option would be to go back to the tee because taking a penalty drop would still leave you in the rubbish with probably no shot out.
    You are still hitting the provisional in the belief that the original may be lost but in effect if your provisional is good, you will keep playing it without searching for the original due to the 'un-playability' of the original (which you are entitled to do so long as no one else looks for and finds the original first).


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  • #22
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Paulusmaximus wrote: »
    100% positive.

    From the rules of Golf, Sectin 27-2c When Provisional Ball to be abandoned

    "If the original ball is neither lost nor Out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue play with the original ball"

    Nice one for that


  • #23
    Sionnachster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 180 ✭✭Sionnachster


    Paulusmaximus wrote: »
    100% positive.

    From the rules of Golf, Sectin 27-2c When Provisional Ball to be abandoned

    "If the original ball is neither lost nor Out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue play with the original ball"



    I would never have thought that to be the case and would have allowed the 2nd ball to be used. Excellent post....


  • #24
    The Rooster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,010 ✭✭✭The Rooster


    I've seen it happen on TV more than once. A pain in the swiss for everyone, but it probably makes sense.


  • #25
    OilBeefHooked2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭OilBeefHooked2


    Paulusmaximus wrote: »
    simple rule is you can declare your ball unplayable at any time but your playing partners are entitled to look for the ball if they so wish. If they find the ball within five minutes the original ball becomes the ball in play.

    If it is in an unplayable lie, the 2nd ball you have hit from the tee is now out of play and you have the three options that SS spoke about, two club lengths, back as far as you like keeping point between you and the hole or going back and dropping/reteeing.

    If anyone is really interested in thet rules of golf, don't bother with the rules of golf but get the Decisions book. It is a big book that basically gives you every possible decision that you could imagine. I've yet to come accross anything that isn't covered in it.

    FYP


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