So bored of this Us v Them attitude

*Honey* · 19-02-2009 08:35PM #1

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

achtungbarry · 19-02-2009 08:37PM

*Honey* wrote: »

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

+ 1

ParkRunner · 19-02-2009 08:46PM

I couldn't agree more. We can spend hours and hours analysing civil service pay, private sector bonuses and all the various perks which each sector enjoys but it will get us nowhere!

The government are engaging in a drip-feeding of facts to keep the general public distracted from the sheer incompetent governance and regualtion over the past decade.

An articulate and united single voice could provide the leadership which is desperately required to save this country from becoming a basket case and retain some sort of dignity for those who have worked hard and honestly in the boom times.

bigstar · 19-02-2009 08:51PM

*Honey* wrote: »

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

+1

galwayrush · 19-02-2009 08:51PM

The Government would love to keep us divided.:(

*Honey* · 19-02-2009 08:56PM

galwayrush wrote: »

The Government would love to keep us divided.:(

Then it is up to us not to allow them win. We need to keep focus. Look to the people who are supposed to be representing us. If we want a new Government, we should demand it. They are supposed to represent us - they are not and we should ALL tell them what we think.

This dog eat dog is just painful to watch. It is doing us ALL a dis-service.

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2009 08:57PM

I couldn't agree more. We can spend hours and hours analysing civil service pay, private sector bonuses and all the various perks which each sector enjoys but it will get us nowhere!

The government are engaging in a drip-feeding of facts to keep the general public distracted from the sheer incompetent governance and regualtion over the past decade.

An articulate and united single voice could provide the leadership which is desperately required to save this country from becoming a basket case and retain some sort of dignity for those who have worked hard and honestly in the boom times.

And who do we turn to ?
If there were a General Election tomorrow morning who do we vote for ?
Fine Geal/Labour will be the exact same.

eoin5 · 19-02-2009 09:01PM

*Honey* wrote: »

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

So its us vs the government then so. Theres enough duality to suit everyone these days.

Lets link hands with the FAS executives and the big builders in pointing the finger at the government, its all their fault the swines!

CleverUsername · 19-02-2009 09:05PM

Originally Posted by *Honey*
The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

bigstar wrote: »

+1

+1

*Honey* · 19-02-2009 09:14PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And who do we turn to ?
If there were a General Election tomorrow morning who do we vote for ?
Fine Geal/Labour will be the exact same.

This is a scary truth... I can only speak personally but I will vote for no-one but Labour next time in a the hope that they can do something. No other party will ever receive my vote again. It's depressing that there's little choice and no real leadership ... but Eamon Gilmore has impressed me lately and, to be honest, it takes a lot to impress me these days.

Dannyboy83 · 19-02-2009 09:15PM

*Honey* wrote: »

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring. It's been argued forever and neither side will agree - it's patently obvious to a blind man!

The outcome of this stupid bickering is that the real focus is being lost - our Government has sold us down the river. They dined in the trough with the rest of the fat pigs and we were never invited to that party... however, we're now paying for the bill.

It's time that we ALL, wherever you work, whatever you do, speak up and tell this Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are NOT doing their job, are NOT representing us and should GO. We all have a voice and we should all direct it at those who have sold us out.

+2 (I showed it to my GF and she agreed, and shes not even Irish):D

*Honey* · 19-02-2009 09:20PM

eoin5 wrote: »

So its us vs the government then so. Theres enough duality to suit everyone these days.

Lets link hands with the FAS executives and the big builders in pointing the finger at the government, its all their fault the swines!

The way I see it, FAS is a Government agency ... the Government should have had better controls/policies in place to manage their own agencies. If you or I were defrauding our employer, you would look to the employer to resolve the problem - of course, we'd be probably be arrested ourselves which would be only right and I personally believe that if fraud is proven in the case of FAS, then those people who committed that crime should pay for it, just as we would.

The Government has been making money hand over fist from the builders in the last few years too... so don't tell me that there isn't a hand of Government ministers in the scandals of FAS, builders/property developers and the banks.

In time the names of those involved will come out - too late to save peoples' jobs and incomes though and, as ever, nothing will happen to them. That, in itself, is a national disgrace ..... if we allow it to happen without making our voices heard, it's also another national disgrace.

turgon · 19-02-2009 09:38PM

*Honey* wrote: »

The Us v Them attitude (private v public sector) that prevails on this board is getting so old and so boring.

Yes because you have been here so long...

*Honey* · 19-02-2009 09:43PM

turgon wrote: »

Yes because you have been here so long...

Hardly applicable. :rolleyes:

keane2097 · 19-02-2009 09:48PM

turgon wrote: »

Yes because you have been here so long...

Yeah those eight months you have on him are great...

Some fúcking people I swear :rolleyes:

atgate · 19-02-2009 10:30PM

*Honey* you make a lot of sense - u clever

eoin5 · 20-02-2009 03:16AM

*Honey* wrote: »

The way I see it, FAS is a Government agency ... the Government should have had better controls/policies in place to manage their own agencies. If you or I were defrauding our employer, you would look to the employer to resolve the problem - of course, we'd be probably be arrested ourselves which would be only right and I personally believe that if fraud is proven in the case of FAS, then those people who committed that crime should pay for it, just as we would.

The Government has been making money hand over fist from the builders in the last few years too... so don't tell me that there isn't a hand of Government ministers in the scandals of FAS, builders/property developers and the banks.

In time the names of those involved will come out - too late to save peoples' jobs and incomes though and, as ever, nothing will happen to them. That, in itself, is a national disgrace ..... if we allow it to happen without making our voices heard, it's also another national disgrace.

My point is we should stop with the duality (Its the government vs us, its europe vs us etc) and approach things more objectively. It a bad way to rationalise problems and an even worse way to offer solutions.

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 09:53AM

Eoin, I appreciate that ... however, my point was that our Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are not doing so... therefore we need to act on that. The public/civil service are voicing their views on Saturday but I feel that we, everyone of us who make up this society, should be voicing our views... that our representatives are NO longer representing us, they are simply not doing their jobs and are out of touch with the real people.

E.T. · 20-02-2009 11:36AM

Thanks, it's about time someone started a thread like this! The government has been doing a great job so far with their divide and conquer strategy, people need to stop bickering and look at the bigger picture.

Lemming · 20-02-2009 11:39AM

*Honey* wrote: »

Eoin, I appreciate that ... however, my point was that our Government, the ones we voted in to represent us, are not doing so... therefore we need to act on that. The public/civil service are voicing their views on Saturday but I feel that we, everyone of us who make up this society, should be voicing our views... that our representatives are NO longer representing us, they are simply not doing their jobs and are out of touch with the real people.

Our representatives have not been representing the people for at least 10 years now. The writing regarding the only way the economy was going to end up was on the wall for all to see as far back as 2001 and yet people still collectively voted like pigs at a trough.

To use a familiar saying; "people get the politicians they deserve".

We as a nation brought this on ourselves by supporting inept gombeen chancers and cute hoors time and again and saying "ah shurre fair play to the man, shhhurrre wouldn't you do the same?" It wasn't play and it certainly wasn't fair. And yet as a nation we voted them in again and again despite the glaringly obvious truth staring us in the face.

Someone else on this thread remarked upon a comment by their father when he left for England some decades ago that nothing had changed, and returned and still maintained that nothing had changed. He was right. Maybe a spell of depression will focus the mentality of this nation into actually growing the f*ck up.

Darragh29 · 20-02-2009 12:03PM

galwayrush wrote: »

The Government would love to keep us divided.:(

Sure as long as we are all fighting with each other, we won't be collectively fighting with them... It's that simple I think...

Lemming · 20-02-2009 12:11PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sure as long as we are all fighting with each other, we won't be collectively fighting with them... It's that simple I think...

Just a thought, but I think apportioning blame should be done correctly. The government have been hamfisted and cynical in their approach to this levy, but the main bone of contention with many people outside of the public sector appears to be the message that the public sector unions are portraying to the taxpayer; abdication of responsibility and an unwillingness to do what is conceptually the right and prudent thing.

Divide and conquer? Pfffft, I wouldn't credit the guuubernment with anything so Machiavellian. They're incapable of it.

RiverWilde · 20-02-2009 03:10PM

US v Them? It's gone way past that.

The old adage power corrupts etc springs to mind. This shower of bastar/ds have been in power in whatever convenient guise for so long now they think they can do whatever they like. The most obnoxious bit is that they've convinced so many people that everyone else is incompetent?!!! How the hell did that happen?

It's like letting a whore convince you that she's the only one qualified to have sex because she gets paid for it!

The sooner these greedy prostitutes are out of office the better.

Riv

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 06:09PM

I totally agree... this Government is dead in the water, the public don't have any respect or trust in them. The Green's should back out now, I am sick that I voted for them.

Everyone, every worker and all those who've lost their jobs along with their family and friends should be marching tomorrow - to show this Government just what the public thinks of them!!!

BroomBurner · 20-02-2009 06:18PM

*Honey* wrote: »

I totally agree... this Government is dead in the water, the public don't have any respect or trust in them. The Green's should back out now, I am sick that I voted for them.

Everyone, every worker and all those who've lost their jobs along with their family and friends should be marching tomorrow - to show this Government just what the public things of them!!!

I agree with you about the Greens, they should be showing some backbone right now.

I also voted for them as I have political ideals and they are a party that are based on ideals. Whether anyone agrees/disagrees with these ideals if for another thread. However, if they want me to vote for them again, they must prove that they really are about having ideals and morals and should at the very least threaten FF with leaving government and destabilising them. At least to give them a lesson.

Oh, on a side note, if there are any members of the PSEU on here, could they PM me? I've a quick question about thursday but I don't want to start a new thread or discuss it here.

Sand · 20-02-2009 06:35PM

To be honest, I just dont want support for the unions on a limited point of principle [ in that the current application of the levy is unfair in that higher paid public servants actually pay less of the pay towards it than lower paid public servants after tax is considered] to be confused with support for the unions objective [ To resist all and any efforts to rein in the unsustainable spending the government has carried out in recent years].

If the social partnership talks have taught us anything it is that the unions are totally unconcerned with Irelands fiscal position, and only concerned with getting as much as they can for themselves alone. Thats fine, but its not a point of view thats going to find broad support.

The current government needs to go as soon as possible, but the idea of Labour actually driving a hard bargain against the unions is laughable. And if the public servants think the 2 billion trimming this year is objectionable, theyre going to have nightmares about the cost cutting thats on the way over the next 3-4 budgets.

We need a government that can face down the unions and force those cuts and job losses through, and Labour [ a likely participant in any alternative government unless Fine Gael somehow grab 45-50% of the seats...] are just too closely connected to the unions to represent the Irish people instead of the unions.

turgon · 20-02-2009 06:44PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah those eight months you have on him are great...

Some fúcking people I swear :rolleyes:

Well maybe 8 months is what it takes to learn some manners, eh?

And I wasnt on about boards.ie in general, I was on about the way this board in particular had been flooded by new posters giving out about the government, and the days where you could start a random thread about neutrality or something and have a nice discussion with only one or two other posters are gone because it would be swallowed up by the spate of moaning threads.

I wasnt judging Honey based on her longetevity on boards.ie, I was judging her based on her lack of posting in Politics before.

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 06:49PM

Sand wrote: »

To be honest, I just dont want support for the unions on a limited point of principle [ in that the current application of the levy is unfair in that higher paid public servants actually pay less of the pay towards it than lower paid public servants after tax is considered] to be confused with support for the unions objective [ To resist all and any efforts to rein in the unsustainable spending the government has carried out in recent years].

I disagree totally that the Unions' objective is "to resist all and any efforst to rein in the unsustainable spending the government carried out... ", ICTU have set out a 10 point plan - they want the Government to get back to the table to discuss a plan that is fair for everyone. ICTU has requested that talks are held again so that we are all working together for a fairer future.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/doc/there_is_a_better_fairer_way.doc

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 06:51PM

turgon wrote: »

Well maybe 8 months is what it takes to learn some manners, eh?

And I wasnt on about boards.ie in general, I was on about the way this board in particular had been flooded by new posters giving out about the government, and the days where you could start a random thread about neutrality or something and have a nice discussion with only one or two other posters are gone because it would be swallowed up by the spate of moaning threads.

I wasnt judging Honey based on her longetevity on boards.ie, I was judging her based on her lack of posting in Politics before.

Turgon, everyone has to start somewhere and better to be interested in the future of this country than not give a damn. I'm assuming you started with a first post once too

NewDubliner · 20-02-2009 06:52PM

Sand wrote: »

We need a government that can face down the unions and force those cuts and job losses through,

Interesting that you don't mention pouring billions into the banks, nor the huge milstone of the guarantee, nor the huge amounts being spent propping up the construction industry through over-priced and unnecessary 'infrastructure' projects. If you're interested in cost-cutting, you've a very narrow agenda.

Sand · 20-02-2009 07:12PM

I disagree totally that the Unions' objective is "to resist all and any efforst to rein in the unsustainable spending the government carried out... ", ICTU have set out a 10 point plan - they want the Government to get back to the table to discuss a plan that is fair for everyone. ICTU has requested that talks are held again so that we are all working together for a fairer future.

Ive read the plan, on some points its agreeable [ capping the renumberation of the bankers in the nationalised/recapitalised banks], on others its disagreeable [ it dismisses out of hand the concept of pay cuts, when they are simply a fiscal reality] and in others its just naive [ legal requirement for banks to lend to protect jobs....good money after bad...]. Its very clear the union position to resist government efforts to get spending back under control.

The unions tax and spend solution is a bit odd - taxing an activity tends to discourage it, so raising taxes on economic activity at a time when economic activity is falling [ which even the unions recognise as a problem] seems to be a strange solution. We need to be do everything possible to encourage economic activity.

Interesting that you don't mention pouring billions into the banks, nor the huge milstone of the guarantee, nor the huge amounts being spent propping up the construction industry through over-priced and unnecessary 'infrastructure' projects. If you're interested in cost-cutting, you've a very narrow agenda.

Its a problem that I focused on the different objectives of the public sector unions and the private sector mules paying those unions pay demands? Theres plenty of threads dealing with the issues you mentioned, and I contributed to them, for example Id have been in favour of letting Anglo Irish burn because they deserved to fail and for capitalism to work, then failure needs to be a real possibility for the board. I also questioned the foolishness of the guarantee back in September when there is no prospect of the Irish government actually being able to replace those deposits.

Ill add my views on a selection of hot topics to my signature just so theyre included on every post I make if it helps?

NewDubliner · 20-02-2009 07:28PM

Sand wrote: »

the private sector mules paying those unions pay demands?

Ah, yes the pious, saintly private sector. A private sector that doesn't overcharge for goods and services, with no over-priced houses, clean food, no price-fixing cartels, no directors gambling for personal gain with customers money. A private sector with no touch-tone hell when trying to get some customer service, and which doesn't disconnect when you do get through.

Sand · 20-02-2009 07:31PM

Ah, yes the pious, saintly private sector. A private sector that doesn't overcharge for goods and services, with no over-priced houses, clean food, no price-fixing cartels, no directors gambling for personal gain with customers money. A private sector with no touch-tone hell when trying to get some customer service, and which doesn't disconnect when you do get through.

Yup, the private sector that pays for everything, that actually carries out the economic activity that is taxed and pays for everything else [ I wont even bother with a run down of the "services" the public sector provides, because lets face it....its too easy].

Thats the mules I am talking about.

20-02-2009 07:35PM

BroomBurner wrote: »

I agree with you about the Greens, they should be showing some backbone right now.

I also voted for them as I have political ideals and they are a party that are based on ideals. Whether anyone agrees/disagrees with these ideals if for another thread. However, if they want me to vote for them again, they must prove that they really are about having ideals and morals and should at the very least threaten FF with leaving government and destabilising them. At least to give them a lesson.

They have threatened to leave govt
they were told to shut it

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 07:42PM

Sand wrote: »

Yup, the private sector that pays for everything, that actually carries out the economic activity that is taxed and pays for everything else [ I wont even bother with a run down of the "services" the public sector provides, because lets face it....its too easy].

Thats the mules I am talking about.

Yeah... the public service only provides people with doctors and nurses for when they're ill, fire service for when your house is on fire, educators so we're not all complete morons (though it hasn't helped some)... etc etc etc. Dreadful waste of money isn't it?

Anyway, enough of my raised hackles.....

We all know that there is fat in the public sector but by tarring everyone with the same brush, you condemn those who've worked hard all their lives - there are also very bad employers and employees in the private sector too ..... nobody is a saint, there are bad and good on both sides. Hence why bother with the Us and Them attitudes .. it gets us nowhere, doesn't solve a single thing and lets those who have put us in this situation get away with it.

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 07:43PM

bluewolf wrote: »

They have threatened to leave govt
they were told to shut it

Where, when, what?

Lemming · 20-02-2009 08:12PM

*Honey* wrote: »

Everyone, every public worker and all those who've lost their jobs along with their family and friends should be marching tomorrow - to show this Government just what the public sector thinks of them!!!

I've fixed that for you Honey.

Please don't dress tomorrows march up as some "for the good of the country" thing. It's not. It's a march against the pension levy on the public sector, by the public sector. To pretend this march is anything else is nothing short of insulting.

And incidentally, however blunt and provocative Sand may be in his posting, he's right on one thing ... if the public sector is having kittens over this levy, god help them [and the rest of us having to suffer their reaction] when the next raft of measures come in. The sh*ts already on the way and the turkey's aren't going to vote for Christmas so why ask if they want it early.

turgon · 20-02-2009 08:32PM

Lemming wrote: »

Please don't dress tomorrows march up as some "for the good of the country" thing. It's not.

Im sure Honey will sweep that under the carpet as simply the "US vs THEM" attitude that has apparently grown on boards, while failing to see the greed of the public sector.

*Honey* · 20-02-2009 09:09PM

I can only speak from my own situation, but some of my friends who have lost their jobs (and yes, they have done in the public service) are coming tomorrow so you may believe it's only the Unions organising it for the public service to complain, but, in fact, lots of others are coming too because they want to have a voice.

You may not like it, you may say that I'm "sweeping it under the carpet", but that's what's happening for me personally, with my friends and colleagues. I've read of other posts on here where people, who are not public service workers, going to march too.

People want a voice - this allows them to have one.

You might not like it and want to continue with the public sector bashing, but it's happening.

NewDubliner · 20-02-2009 09:18PM

Lemming wrote: »

I've fixed that for you Honey.

What have you fixed exactly?

Lemming wrote: »

god help them [and the rest of us having to suffer their reaction] when the next raft of measures come in. The sh*ts already on the way and the turkey's aren't going to vote for Christmas so why ask if they want it early.

It seems like you're looking forward, with some relish, to everyone being miserable.

AMIIAM · 20-02-2009 09:21PM

Honey, After you tick your box/next box on polling day , your voice falls on deaf ears.

Lemming · 20-02-2009 10:38PM

NewDubliner wrote: »

What have you fixed exactly?

Take a look at the Honey's quote above what I said. I edited it to reflect the actual reality of the march tomorrow and what she really meant to say.

It seems like you're looking forward, with some relish, to everyone being miserable.

Quite the contrary. If everyone's miserable, then I'm miserable by inference. And I'd rather take a pass on that one if you don't mind.

I am however very much concerned that the public sector has gone apocalyptic over what is by comparison on the lighter side of what the rest of the country is as a whole having to bear. The measures to come (and there' plenty for everyone to suffer under mark my words) are going to be worse, and if the public sector can't get their heads around this levy - however unfair it is in its application- well then god help each and every one of us.

NewDubliner · 20-02-2009 11:03PM

Lemming wrote: »

Take a look at the Honey's quote above what I said. I edited it to reflect the actual reality of the march tomorrow and what she really meant to say.

It seemed like you'd altered a post you disagreed with. Sorry, my mistake.

Lemming wrote: »

if the public sector can't get their heads around this levy - however unfair it is in its application- well then god help each and every one of us.

The public sector is quite well educated about the issues and the bigger picture.

Lemming · 20-02-2009 11:09PM

NewDubliner wrote: »

The public sector is quite well educated about the issues and the bigger picture.

The message they're putting out would seem to very much contradict that assertion I'm afraid. This is but #1 of a long list of very painful measures to come. And this isn't even a particularly painful measure in itself. That the public sector took very little time at all to whip themselves into a strike frenzy over this worries me when there's much, much worse to come.

I suppose the march will be good practice for when the IMF come in ... we'll all have plenty of time on our hands by then.

livvy · 20-02-2009 11:17PM

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

Lemming · 20-02-2009 11:29PM

livvy wrote: »

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

The divide & conquer makes sense if you have a government devious and capable enough of it. The government does not match either description.

But yes you're right, the focus on the bad handling of the situation has been lost. The public sector workers are so whipped up into a frenzy that they've lost sight of the fact that it was their own union leaders playing political theatrics for self-interest and selling them down the river.

The government, ham-fisted as it is, is not the main party to blame for this. The unions entered talks with a 1998 confrontational mindset and effectively said "f*ck you" to every single tax payer in this country. That they then said "f*ck you" to every single one of their members seems to have escaped the attentions of their members ... The money isn't there, and the government has few if any choices open to it. A softly-softly approach was never on the cards, nor was it feasible in any case.

The main source of this "private vs. public" sector bullsh*t has been the public sector unions. They pointed to the private sector and bemoaned "why they should be the ones to pay", whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that the rest of the country was indeed already paying a steep price. The message portrayed by the public sector unions is one of abdication of responsibility and so-called "solidarity". That message is the one that's fueling the private vs. public sector standoff.

Sand · 21-02-2009 01:23AM

Yeah... the public service only provides people with doctors and nurses for when they're ill, fire service for when your house is on fire, educators so we're not all complete morons (though it hasn't helped some)... etc etc etc. Dreadful waste of money isn't it?

You're putting some words into my mouth there - Id actually have a lot of sympathy for public service workers on the "frontlines", though that might be understandable given my father is a guard and my mother a teacher [ I might even attend tommorrow, with the peer pressure i am under...]. That doesnt mean I am blind to the reality of the incredible waste and inefficiency of the public sector as a whole. Especially when you consider railway workers considering strike action for more pay because the trains they drive will have more carraiges attached....as if theyll be pushing the trains along.

And the point I didnt underline for NewDub is that if he is unhappy with the service he receives from one entity in the private sector he can move his business to a new entity, punishing bad service and rewarding good service. Competition, you might have heard your friends in the private sector mentioning it once or twice. Your unions reps might have mentioned it too, before swiftly making the sign of the cross to ward off evil.

In terms of the Irish public service, the only option if youre unhappy with the service you receive is emigration....Oh wait, we are famous for that...

And incidentally, however blunt and provocative Sand may be in his posting, he's right on one thing

TBH, I've always considered myself to be reserved and thoughtful in my posting. Youre right about me being right though.

the government boys and girls must rub their hands with glee in seeing how the nation has responded to this crisis - we attack each other in the old public v private debate. I read in another thread the divide and conquer theory and it makes sense. We spend so much time attacking each other the focus on the bad handling of the situation is lost.

The unions werent so slow about kicking up a public vs private sector divide when arguing for benchmarking...

Of course, they shut up very quickly when they realised benchmarking public servants to private sector pay would actually lead to pay cuts for the public sector.

Of course, now that the chosen ones feel threatened, its time for solidarity. Theres a golden circle in Ireland, true. But theres a brass circle too.

K-9 · 21-02-2009 01:29AM

Sand wrote: »

The unions werent so slow about kicking up a public vs private sector divide when arguing for benchmarking...

Of course, they shut up very quickly when they realised benchmarking public servants to private sector pay would actually lead to pay cuts for the public sector.

Of course, now that the chosen ones feel threatened, its time for solidarity. Theres a golden circle in Ireland, true. But theres a brass circle too.

Well said.

Benchmarking, which we are still paying for, every bloody year.

I see the levy as a payback for a benchmarking system we couldn't afford, banking bail outs or not. And yes, this was pointed out at the time and the Unions ignored it.

ParkRunner · 21-02-2009 01:37AM

K-9 wrote: »

Well said.

Benchmarking, which we are still paying for, every bloody year.

I see the levy as a payback for a benchmarking system we couldn't afford, banking bail outs or not. And yes, this was pointed out at the time and the Unions ignored it.

The private sector were happy to carry on also with the arrangement as it stood (as they were rolling in it) so it's pretty irrelevant who ignored what at this stage. Or was it up to the unions to lead government policy at this time but any attempt to influence govt policy now is to be strongly resisted?

K-9 · 21-02-2009 01:48AM

EF wrote: »

The private sector were happy to carry on also with the arrangement as it stood (as they were rolling in it) so it's pretty irrelevant who ignored what at this stage. Or was it up to the unions to lead government policy at this time but any attempt to influence govt policy now is to be strongly resisted?

No, Unions membership is largely Public Sector.

The media gave out stink about benchmarking but some didn't listen.

In fact you may find the same people who warned about the Construction boom also warned about Benchmarking.

You see waste is waste to me, I don't care if it's Unions or big business. Unions seem to ignore one and concentrate on the other.

The Govt. was happy with benchmarking and pay increase despite warnings. People said these Tax Revenues are unsustainable, stop spending them on Benchmarking which we'll pay forever, but it was ignored.

Benchmarking was the first bank bail out.

ParkRunner · 21-02-2009 01:57AM

K-9 wrote: »

No, Unions membership is largely Public Sector.

The media gave out stink about benchmarking but some didn't listen.

In fact you may find the same people who warned about the Construction boom also warned about Benchmarking.

You see waste is waste to me, I don't care if it's Unions or big business. Unions seem to ignore one and concentrate on the other.

The Govt. was happy with benchmarking and pay increase despite warnings. People said these Tax Revenues are unsustainable, stop spending them on Benchmarking which we'll pay forever, but it was ignored.

Benchmarking was the first bank bail out.

The same way as unions were prepared to continue to fight for a decent level of income for their members, the big businesses were prepared to pay unsustainable incomes for their workers. It was going to lead to an inevitable collapse of the cards as we have seen now yet the unions (both public and private) are being absolutely hammered now for their stance of opposing the government's position. If the same big businesses had any regard for their workers they would have sought cuts in the wages of their employees to sustain the long term employment prospects of their workers but they have cut all ties, upped ship and left our shores.

So bored of this Us v Them attitude

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