Loss of faith

Fanny Cradock · 03-08-2009 08:06AM #1

What is it that makes a sincere and earnest believer loose faith? And how is the Christian to reconcile this in light of various passages in the NT regarding the honest search for faith? (None specifically spring to mind - maybe they will later.)

In the past I've encountered “deconversion” stories on websites like ex-christian.net. Broadly speaking, it seems to me that these former believers can be split into three categories.

A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

Feet of Clay - Someone whose faith was so rigid that a blow to a core belief caused a gradual collapse of all their religious beliefs.

C) Cultural – Someone who never really accepted the truth of Christianity and abandoned it without much in the way of internal conflict.

Being perfectly honest, for the purposes of this thread, I'm not overly concerned with group B or C. While group B puzzles me, I think that it seems obvious why they jacked it in, and I've encountered enough of group C over the years to have a fair idea of where they are coming from. They never where believers – not in any real sense of the word – so I don't expect much insight from what seemed like an inevitable abandonment of “faith” that really never was.

Some of the most memorable testimonies I've encountered have been from former men of the cloth who would have seemed to fit into somewhere between B and C. The general thrust of their tale was that they lost the faith for whatever reason and now detest Christianity with a passion that seemingly overshadows whatever passion they once had for God. (Perhaps this is an unfair inference on my part.) Consequently, most of the vestiges of their old Christian selves have been abandoned and they have become a sort of rebellious parody of their old selves. Behind these stories I detect a lot of arrogance and bitterness. It's all the more puzzling and shocking to think that they were once leaders and people of influence.

To be fair, I should stress that not all B and C's come across in such a negative manner. However, for the purpose of this thread, I want to concentrate on group A, those who loose faith despite their best (?) efforts. As a Christian I really can't understand why this would happen if we bear in mind the role of the Holy Spirit and various passages in the bible tells us about faith. Matt 7:7 is about the most apt verse I can think of at the mo, though I imagine there are better. Is there beyond putting the loss of faith as a consequence of their free choice. Are we to believe that there was really something else going on behind the struggle? Surely "selfishness" wouldn't be a reason to stop believing, maybe only a reason to be an uncommited Christian. What did they do wrong?

Christian spirited responses, please.

PDN · 03-08-2009 08:38AM

I think the 'feet of clay' one is quite common.

Proponents of particular doctrines (eg, creationism, hell, the rapture, biblical inerrancy, speaking in tongues, predestination etc.) tend to stress them so strongly that they overegg the pudding and claim that if you abandon these doctrines then there's nothing left. Then, if someone does come to doubt such a doctrine their whole religious world collapses.

There are certain truths that are so foundational that a viable Gospel does not exist wiithout them, but I think they are comparatively few. The resurrection is one clear example, but I would also include the historicity of Jesus, His humanity, His deity, His death on the Cross, and the belief that Scripture is (in some way or another) inspired by God.

Phototoxin · 03-08-2009 08:57AM

I was in a phase of questioning - still believing but questioning, then i got quick sick and for a time hadn't the strength to go to church. However despite having the strength I had come to realise that my life was no less off by not going. I have tried different things when I got my job but the local RC church is horrid and seemed awfully judgmental. Plus I disagree with some of the infallible truths that an RC MUST belive (most if it you just have to not deny, only a little you must actualyl belive when it comes down to it) plus I find RCism highly pharasical with all its rules which of course the trad mindset what to harken back to.

I try to go to the quaker meetings in town but I'm not there often (have gotten engaged 2 weeks ago so visiting the fiancée and going to her church) although that might change as they've re-envisioned their stance on same sex marriage which is a puzzler.
Fiancee's church is nice as stated before and I will be getting married there but I don't classify myself as a christian. I have difficulty in accepting why I need to be saved, why I'm damned from the moment I'm born, why the Christian God is supposed to be brilliant when the OT has many negative points.
However I do agree with the moral principles such as help people, and protect those who cannot protect themselves, be honest, sex after marraige etc

SlickRic · 03-08-2009 09:34AM

i find a big reason is the churches. people are too worried about being judgmental and forget to just 'be Jesus' to people. As the church, we should be walking with people through difficulties, hardships and questioning.

too often i find people are just told they're being ridiculous, should just believe, and get on with it. none of us know everything.

i long for the day when all churches walk with people as they question. i strongly believe people would give God more of a chance if they did.

Fanny Cradock · 03-08-2009 10:03AM

PDN wrote: »

I think the 'feet of clay' one is quite common.

Proponents of particular doctrines (eg, creationism, hell, the rapture, biblical inerrancy, speaking in tongues, predestination etc.) tend to stress them so strongly that they overegg the pudding and claim that if you abandon these doctrines then there's nothing left. Then, if someone does come to doubt such a doctrine their whole religious world collapses.

There are certain truths that are so foundational that a viable Gospel does not exist wiithout them, but I think they are comparatively few. The resurrection is one clear example, but I would also include the historicity of Jesus, His humanity, His deity, His death on the Cross, and the belief that Scripture is (in some way or another) inspired by God.

I would completely agree with this. However, what do you think about the failed struggle of the honest person with failed faith?

Phototoxin wrote: »

I was in a phase of questioning - still believing but questioning, then i got quick sick and for a time hadn't the strength to go to church. However despite having the strength I had come to realise that my life was no less off by not going. I have tried different things when I got my job but the local RC church is horrid and seemed awfully judgmental. Plus I disagree with some of the infallible truths that an RC MUST belive (most if it you just have to not deny, only a little you must actualyl belive when it comes down to it) plus I find RCism highly pharasical with all its rules which of course the trad mindset what to harken back to.

I try to go to the quaker meetings in town but I'm not there often (have gotten engaged 2 weeks ago so visiting the fiancée and going to her church) although that might change as they've re-envisioned their stance on same sex marriage which is a puzzler.
Fiancee's church is nice as stated before and I will be getting married there but I don't classify myself as a christian. I have difficulty in accepting why I need to be saved, why I'm damned from the moment I'm born, why the Christian God is supposed to be brilliant when the OT has many negative points.
However I do agree with the moral principles such as help people, and protect those who cannot protect themselves, be honest, sex after marraige etc

Funnily enough, I thought of your good self when I was typing this, Phototoxin. I do think that there are reasonable answers to your troubling questions and those obstacles that stand in the way of your faith. But then again, I'm not you! And possibly those answers lay somewhere beyond this forum. As for your illness - you have mentioned it in the past - you might be inspired by the books of Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning
and Man's Search For Ultimate meaning. They are on my list of must reads.

Fanny Cradock · 03-08-2009 10:07AM

SlickRic wrote: »

i find a big reason is the churches. people are too worried about being judgmental and forget to just 'be Jesus' to people. As the church, we should be walking with people through difficulties, hardships and questioning.

too often i find people are just told they're being ridiculous, should just believe, and get on with it. none of us know everything.

i long for the day when all churches walk with people as they question. i strongly believe people would give God more of a chance if they did.

Yes, but what of those who where heavily involved in a Church, maybe even a strong figure in it?

Plowman · 03-08-2009 12:07PM

This post has been deleted.

delta720 · 03-08-2009 12:27PM

Plowman wrote: »

But when she was filming in Jerusalem, she was kind of re-converted back to religion. She now describes herself as some form of monotheist, although she does not commit herself to any particular organised religion.

This is very strange, as an athiest myself I would have thought that seeing first hand everything that happens in Jerusalem (I've only seen documentaries) would have only reinforced her position as it is exactly that which makes us discard 'religion', if not a belief in a god.

SlickRic · 03-08-2009 12:33PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, but what of those who where heavily involved in a Church, maybe even a strong figure in it?

my comment includes those who have been involved in a church.

people become tired of trying to be perfect, or trying to please those around them, or please a God who they believe wants them to be perfect. it's easy to become disillusioned with this.

as chuches we forget too often to nurture and choose to judge. this is not true of all churches of course; just many that i've seen.

Plowman · 03-08-2009 12:54PM

This post has been deleted.

Hotspace · 03-08-2009 02:00PM

To summarise your question: How does a committed Christian lose their faith? If you’ve read enough of the de-conversion testimonies at ex-christian.net then you should start seeing a commonality. By the way my own testimony is up there in the 2006 archives but you won’t find it under the same username. I used my real name – foolish of me.

I’ve read book level de-conversion testimonies as well as internet blogged ones and the commonalities that I see are:

You must have a questioning mind, perhaps philosophical in nature.
New information comes along which contradicts what you previously held to be true.
A personal crisis.

Why don’t you ask the same question just re-hashed a bit to suit the forum at ex-christian.net?

Fanny Cradock · 03-08-2009 03:08PM

Hotspace wrote: »

To summarise your question: How does a committed Christian lose their faith? If you’ve read enough of the de-conversion testimonies at ex-christian.net then you should start seeing a commonality. By the way my own testimony is up there in the 2006 archives but you won’t find it under the same username. I used my real name – foolish of me.

I’ve read book level de-conversion testimonies as well as internet blogged ones and the commonalities that I see are:
You must have a questioning mind, perhaps philosophical in nature.

New information comes along which contradicts what you previously held to be true.

A personal crisis.

Why don’t you ask the same question just re-hashed a bit to suit the forum at ex-christian.net?

I don't think I'm greatly interested in asking what they think. It's already there in black and white, after all. As a Christian I am operating under the assumption in this thread that they are wrong and Christianity is correct. So, for the purposes of this thread, there is no epistemological challenge. Therefore, if Christianity is assumed to be correct, how does the Christian reconcile the loss of faith in the former honest believer in light of what the bible tells us?

As for your reasons - and I don't mean to be dismissive - I've heard them before. Yes, they were obviously compelling to yourself and those of your irreligious bent, but many Christians have investigated the claims of the unbeliever and have found the central thesis - that there is no God - to be without merit. And would you believe that some of us have done this with a "questioning mind"? Indeed, without dismissing some very valid questions, arguments and criticisms posed by atheism, as a pillar upon which a world view rests, I believe it poses some very difficult questions that are rarely recognised or addressed by the casual unbeliever.

Out of curiosity, assuming you agree with the 3 categories outlined in the OP, where would you place yourself?

Still, I do not wish to deflect this discussion away from the main point of the thread. What is a Christian to make of group A in light of the bible?

JimiTime · 03-08-2009 03:17PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

.

I think there are many factors involved. I'll start though by giving examples of folk biblically who abandoned faith, though not necessarily belief.

King Saul
Judas Iscariot
Adam and Eve
King Solomon

Now these people all had first hand dealings with God, yet they abandoned him. Seeing such people abandon their faith should inform us that no matter how strong our faith may be, we must keep it fed with Godly nourishment. I would say that there are probably few of us that have had the faith of King Solomon. Yet such a man abandoned his faith. Abandoning 'belief' goes with abandoning faith in this age of what I would call ambiguous communication between God and man.

What are the causes these days? Well I would guess the following are factors.

1. The sufferring in the world. People not fathoming why God would let it continue. Especially when one hears of things like Fritzel etc. I would never underestimate such things effect on ones faith.

2. Misplaced faith elsewhere that turns a person from their Christian faith. The scientific community being the obvious one that springs to mind. If their faith in men and their workings outweighs their faith in God, they may come to a crossroads and feel that Christianity has been shown to be precarious.

3. Intellectualising their faith. They may have built their faith on intellectualism. To all it seems that they have such great faith due to their outward knowledge etc However if it seems to them that it is then intellectually undermined, they struggle. As Paul said, Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up.

4. Carrying on from point 3, they have it all but the key ingredient. Love.

I remember as a child having alot of faith. Alot more than I have now unfortunately. I love the Story of David and Goliath. That child like faith of 'What are you worried about? We have God on our side. I don't want armour, Jehovah is my armour. Just give me a stone and a slingshot and I'll go down.' Its a story that never fails to build me up. Its what Christ is talking about. IMO he warns us about the scribes, and the intellectualisers. Its why he talks about being childlike. A child just trusts their parents.

Thats my 2 cent anyhoo.

PDN · 03-08-2009 03:35PM

JimiTime wrote: »

1. The sufferring in the world. People not fathoming why God would let it continue. Especially when one hears of things like Fritzel etc. I would never underestimate such things effect on ones faith.

This is the reason why Bart Ehrman, a well known agnostic biblical scholar, abandoned his Christian faith. He could not reconcile his beliefs with the suffering he saw in the world.

getz · 03-08-2009 03:41PM

there are many around like myself ,who believe in early christian teachings,then take one look on how the christian churches practice it a say why,this wasent how it was supposed to be, jesus did not teach this,

Hotspace · 03-08-2009 04:09PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't think I'm greatly interested in asking what they think. It's already there in black and white, after all. As a Christian I am operating under the assumption in this thread that they are wrong and Christianity is correct. So, for the purposes of this thread, there is no epistemological challenge. Therefore, if Christianity is assumed to be correct, how does the Christian reconcile the loss of faith in the former honest believer in light of what the bible tells us?

Let's place myself back in time to my former Christian mind. The answer, for all dog vomit eating backsliders is the same and supported by biblical references. Which I am too lazy to track down: that Satan is the bringer of all doubts. We must question why such a religion is seemingly hermetically sealed that doubts themselves are proof of the religion. When I had a personal crisis and I doubted strongly I figured that there are various controls to keep me locked into this religion.

1. There is a worse hell set aside for apostates than people who have never believed
2. Ex-believers would be shunned
3. My doubts were from Satan and he was influencing my mind.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As for your reasons - and I don't mean to be dismissive - I've heard them before. Yes, they were obviously compelling to yourself and those of your irreligious bent, but many Christians have investigated the claims of the unbeliever and have found the central thesis - that there is no God - to be without merit. And would you believe that some of us have done this with a "questioning mind"? Indeed, without dismissing some very valid questions, arguments and criticisms posed by atheism, as a pillar upon which a world view rests, I believe it poses some very difficult questions that are rarely recognised or addressed by the casual unbeliever.

That is a very brave and telling paragraph of broad and strong statements. I won't duly respond to every point - because, as you say, it will deflect from the main thread. But, suffice it to say that extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Out of curiosity, assuming you agree with the 3 categories outlined in the OP, where would you place yourself?

Of course, life stances and wordlviews can't so easily be pigeoned holed. I think a sliding scale of strength of faith and knowledge of theology might have been more appropriate. I would place myself in category B. Although, my knowledge of theology is greater now than it was then. That's only because I'm more of an academic personality than I was then.

JimiTime · 03-08-2009 04:12PM

getz wrote: »

there are many around like myself ,who believe in early christian teachings,then take one look on how the christian churches practice it a say why,this wasent how it was supposed to be, jesus did not teach this,

A few things. 'Christian Churches' is a HUGE term. Do you mean the 'main' ones like Roman Catholic, Anglican etc?

Also, you say you believe in 'early christian teachings'. Does this mean that you are a Christian? Are you a man of faith? I'm not sure of your position. It suggests to me you are, maybe you could clarify?

Is it that you have faith in God and in the resurrection of Christ, but don't conform to a particular denomination. Sorry about the 20 questions, Just wondering if you could clarify.

PDN · 03-08-2009 04:18PM

Hotspace wrote: »

Let's place myself back in time to my former Christian mind. The answer, for all dog vomit eating backsliders is the same and supported by biblical references. Which I am too lazy to track down: that Satan is the bringer of all doubts. We must question why such a religion is seemingly hermetically sealed that doubts themselves are proof of the religion.

What you have described may have been your experience, but it doesn't appear to reflect the position of any of the posters here. So maybe you would be better finding people who actually believe that and then ask them why their religion is so hermetically sealed.

As far as this thread is concerned it looks suspiciously like a strawman.

Morbert · 03-08-2009 06:37PM

Despite all the discussions regarding Christianity and Atheism, the adoption of Christianity ultimately rests on one factor, and that is whether or not Christ is evident in your life. This is why, even if someone is well educated in matters of theology, they can lose faith if Christ is not evident to them.

Phototoxin · 03-08-2009 07:47PM

Re:hotspace, I think that many religons are controlling, manipulative and restricting. However too loose/liberal and then they loose structure and gumption.

SlickRic · 03-08-2009 08:10PM

Morbert wrote: »

Despite all the discussions regarding Christianity and Atheism, the adoption of Christianity ultimately rests on one factor, and that is whether or not Christ is evident in your life. This is why, even if someone is well educated in matters of theology, they can lose faith if Christ is not evident to them.

nail on head imo.

Christ not being evident to them can manifest itself in disillusionment with church, with the questions, with leadership etc. but the key thing is always Christ. if you don't know Him anymore, that's inevitably when you fall away.

that's just from what i've seen anyway.

Soul Winner · 03-08-2009 09:24PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What is it that makes a sincere and earnest believer loose faith? And how is the Christian to reconcile this in light of various passages in the NT regarding the honest search for faith? (None specifically spring to mind - maybe they will later.)

In the past I've encountered “deconversion” stories on websites like ex-christian.net. Broadly speaking, it seems to me that these former believers can be split into three categories.
A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

Feet of Clay - Someone whose faith was so rigid that a blow to a core belief caused a gradual collapse of all their religious beliefs.

C) Cultural – Someone who never really accepted the truth of Christianity and abandoned it without much in the way of internal conflict.

Being perfectly honest, for the purposes of this thread, I'm not overly concerned with group B or C. While group B puzzles me, I think that it seems obvious why they jacked it in, and I've encountered enough of group C over the years to have a fair idea of where they are coming from. They never where believers – not in any real sense of the word – so I don't expect much insight from what seemed like an inevitable abandonment of “faith” that really never was.

Some of the most memorable testimonies I've encountered have been from former men of the cloth who would have seemed to fit into somewhere between B and C. The general thrust of their tale was that they lost the faith for whatever reason and now detest Christianity with a passion that seemingly overshadows whatever passion they once had for God. (Perhaps this is an unfair inference on my part.) Consequently, most of the vestiges of their old Christian selves have been abandoned and they have become a sort of rebellious parody of their old selves. Behind these stories I detect a lot of arrogance and bitterness. It's all the more puzzling and shocking to think that they were once leaders and people of influence.

To be fair, I should stress that not all B and C's come across in such a negative manner. However, for the purpose of this thread, I want to concentrate on group A, those who loose faith despite their best (?) efforts. As a Christian I really can't understand why this would happen if we bear in mind the role of the Holy Spirit and various passages in the bible tells us about faith. Matt 7:7 is about the most apt verse I can think of at the mo, though I imagine there are better. Is there beyond putting the loss of faith as a consequence of their free choice. Are we to believe that there was really something else going on behind the struggle? Surely "selfishness" wouldn't be a reason to stop believing, maybe only a reason to be an uncommited Christian. What did they do wrong?

Christian spirited responses, please.

I believe Jesus summed it all up in 'The Parable of the sower', a parable which Jesus said, if we don't understand we cannot even be disciples (learners) of Him, because if we can't understand this one then we can't understanding any other parable. Mark 4:13

Luke 8:4-15

"And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables;that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand (So much for the idea that Jesus wants to save everybody). (He goes on to explain the parable to His disciples) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with endurance."

getz · 04-08-2009 09:13AM

JimiTime wrote: »

A few things. 'Christian Churches' is a HUGE term. Do you mean the 'main' ones like Roman Catholic, Anglican etc?

Also, you say you believe in 'early christian teachings'. Does this mean that you are a Christian? Are you a man of faith? I'm not sure of your position. It suggests to me you are, maybe you could clarify?

Is it that you have faith in God and in the resurrection of Christ, but don't conform to a particular denomination. Sorry about the 20 questions, Just wondering if you could clarify.

this is my story ,and what i believe,christened catholic,[because my father was catholic,and in them days the church insisted on it]went to a church of england school and also became a choir boy,also went in the afternoons to sunday school[bible lessons]in my local babtist church,this was during the war years,i believe in god through jesus, but my major[hangup]is that i did not believe god put us on this earth just for people to worship him,my god is above all that,my view on churches is that i think they have lost the plot,dont get me wrong, i respect their beliefs,but the only one i have any time for,but i will not join,is the salvation army. sorry if i upset you ,but thats how i think

JimiTime · 04-08-2009 11:03AM

getz wrote: »

this is my story ,and what i believe,christened catholic,[because my father was catholic,and in them days the church insisted on it]went to a church of england school and also became a choir boy,also went in the afternoons to sunday school[bible lessons]in my local babtist church,this was during the war years,i believe in god through jesus, but my major[hangup]is that i did not believe god put us on this earth just for people to worship him,my god is above all that,my view on churches is that i think they have lost the plot,dont get me wrong, i respect their beliefs,but the only one i have any time for,but i will not join,is the salvation army. sorry if i upset you ,but thats how i think

Thanks for expanding. Two things. Firstly, I'm not sure why you think you've upset me

All smiles here, so don't worry:)

Secondly your line 'i did not believe god put us on this earth just for people to worship him'. What do you believe worship is? Jesus said to worship is to look after orphans and widows. Alot of people think of worship as a kind of grovelling. If Moses is to be believed, Gods instruction to Adam in the beginning was to go and be many. He set him over all the earth. Worshipping God is not about being on your knee's. Its about following Christ and loving God and your neighbour. If there were actually a billion people worshipping God the way Christ did, there would be alot less sufferring. However, because people equate worship with going to church, its meaning is watered down.

Handsome Bob · 04-08-2009 11:51AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

Feet of Clay - Someone whose faith was so rigid that a blow to a core belief caused a gradual collapse of all their religious beliefs.

C) Cultural – Someone who never really accepted the truth of Christianity and abandoned it without much in the way of internal conflict.

I think that I honestly fall between A and B. I'm not quite A as I would never claim that I was well versed in the intracies of Catholicism. However I did have a love of God, and a strong one at that. I didn't have a great childhood or great times as a teenager compared to my friends, but my faith in God reassured me that in the end I would get what I deserve for being a good person.

In regards to B, I took blows to a number of my core beliefs within a space of a year or so it really wasn't a case of my faith being so brittle that it broke a part under the slighest attack.

getz · 05-08-2009 11:03AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Thanks for expanding. Two things. Firstly, I'm not sure why you think you've upset me All smiles here, so don't worry:)

Secondly your line 'i did not believe god put us on this earth just for people to worship him'. What do you believe worship is? Jesus said to worship is to look after orphans and widows. Alot of people think of worship as a kind of grovelling. If Moses is to be believed, Gods instruction to Adam in the beginning was to go and be many. He set him over all the earth. Worshipping God is not about being on your knee's. Its about following Christ and loving God and your neighbour. If there were actually a billion people worshipping God the way Christ did, there would be alot less sufferring. However, because people equate worship with going to church, its meaning is watered down.

praying in church?, it would be nice if that was true,but as you know history tells a different story,the organized churches have been the cause of most pain and suffering in this world,like if you dont go to my church you are going to burn in hell,and you would be crucified in the name of christ,no i will do it my way and harm no-one.

PDN · 05-08-2009 12:01PM

getz wrote: »

the organized churches have been the cause of most pain and suffering in this world,like if you dont go to my church you are going to burn in hell,and you would be crucified in the name of christ,no i will do it my way and harm no-one.

To be fair, the vast majority of organised churches have never claimed that you go to hell unless you join their particular church, nor have they ever tortured or killed anyone for any reason.

JimiTime · 05-08-2009 12:10PM

getz wrote: »

praying in church?, it would be nice if that was true,but as you know history tells a different story,the organized churches have been the cause of most pain and suffering in this world,like if you dont go to my church you are going to burn in hell,and you would be crucified in the name of christ,no i will do it my way and harm no-one.

Sorry, but what does the above have to do with my post

getz · 05-08-2009 01:05PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Sorry, but what does the above have to do with my post

sorry i know what you mean, the big problem i have with churches is that they do not seem to preach the bibles message,they are more into lighting candles/incence/dressing up/statues and other pagon ceremonies its all about mind control, PDN how can you say that? have you already forgot ,2000,years of churches engagement of assasinations, murders,slavery,political intrigue, and torture in the name of jesus ?the whitch trails were a direct result of some churches doctrines. over 100,000 executions in europe,and less we forget the terrible gonad amputations suffered on young boys, so they could sing better in church,this is why i have no time for churches

PDN · 05-08-2009 01:13PM

getz wrote: »

PDN how can you say that? have you already forgot ,2000,years of churches engagement of assasinations, murders,slavery,political intrigue, and torture in the name of jesus ?the whitch trails were a direct result of some churches doctrines. over 100,000 executions in europe,and less we forget the terrible gonad amputations suffered on young boys, so they could sing better in church,this is why i have no time for churches

No, I haven't forgotten any of that. However, most of that was perpetrated by one particular organisation.

Tell me who was tortured or killed by the Methodists? The Presbyterian Church in ireland? The Church of the Nazarene? The Baptist Union of Ireland? The Salvation Army? The Moravians? The Brethren? Assemblies of God? Church of God? Foursquare? The Vineyard association of Churches? I could go on and on. Also, none of these churches have ever claimed that if you don't join their church you go to hell.

JimiTime · 05-08-2009 02:12PM

getz wrote: »

sorry i know what you mean, the big problem i have with churches is that they do not seem to preach the bibles message,they are more into lighting candles/incence/dressing up/statues and other pagon ceremonies its all about mind control, PDN how can you say that? have you already forgot ,2000,years of churches engagement of assasinations, murders,slavery,political intrigue, and torture in the name of jesus ?the whitch trails were a direct result of some churches doctrines. over 100,000 executions in europe,and less we forget the terrible gonad amputations suffered on young boys, so they could sing better in church,this is why i have no time for churches

Again, I think you are missing how HUGE the term 'Churches' is. As PDN pointed out, you seem to be talking about one or two particular biggies.

Again though, just for clarity, Do you believe in Christ and his resurrection? Is it that you don't 'do' organised religion, but you believe in Christ and his promises?

Loss of faith

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