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Do you believe the universe came from nothing

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  • #32
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Like I said it's very complicated and will never be understood I think.

    Therefore, I don't know.


  • #33
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Well said, but the OPs question used the word "nothing" and I think that there must have been something, whether conscious or not.
    The human mind does tend to think like that but we don't know that for sure. There's a whole lot about the universe that isn't intuitive. It's difficult to imagine that there are 11 dimensions and not just the usual 3 but that's what string theory suggests. Its maths only work out if there are 11 dimensions.
    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Only we don't know if it was it something conscious and therefore it seems we may use religon to personify this creator so we can worship it.
    I'm going off the track a bit but the OPs question did use the word "nothing".

    As I said, the word "God" is being used blindly, that name applies to an object or person. I also used the word "superpower" to attempt to clearly differentiate between the two.

    Like I said it's very complicated and will never be understood I think.

    But what do you mean by superpower? Who says it has to be superpowerful? Right now our laws of nature prevent us from creating matter but those laws don't apply inside the big bang or "before" it. All of our models collapse inside it because the universe, if it could be called a universe, was fundamentally different. When our laws of nature no longer apply, it might be that creating matter is no more difficult than flicking a light switch and a force of this other kind of nature wouldn't have to be at all powerful, it would just be a 'natural' process following its 'natural' laws the same way our laws are conducive to snow storms

    edit: you should look up ignosticism:
    Ignosticism, or igtheism, is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism) assumes too much about the concept of God


  • #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The question assumes that the Universe is finite. I don't believe that it is. I think it's infinately long and has always existed. It's us as humans who have severe problems understanding the theory of something being infinite.

    I think that the Universe is a cycle. It expands, and contracts (via possibly a super black-hole), and expands again (possibly via a big bang). It continues this cycle every couple of 100 billion years perhaps. This is just my guesstimate. Nobody can answer with certainty.


  • #35
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    The human mind does tend to think like that but we don't know that for sure. There's a whole lot about the universe that isn't intuitive. It's difficult to imagine that there are 11 dimensions and not just the usual 3 but that's what string theory suggests. Its maths only work out if there are 11 dimensions.

    Again well said and because we understand so little then we tend make assumptions for everything else - hence this is what make its so complicated. The very simple answer the original question is that nothing comes from nothing.


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    But what do you mean by superpower? Who says it has to be superpowerful? Right now our laws of nature prevent us from creating matter but those laws don't apply inside the big bang or "before" it. All of our models collapse inside it because the universe, if it could be called a universe, was fundamentally different. When our laws of nature no longer apply, it might be that creating matter is no more difficult than flicking a light switch and a force of this other kind of nature wouldn't have to be at all powerful, it would just be a 'natural' process following its 'natural' laws the same way our laws are conducive to snow storms

    By superpower I mean something (not nothing) created all this and therefore because all this is so vast then it can be referred to as a superpower. Only I think we personify this superpower only because we know of nothing more intelligent than us, therefore it must be like us.


  • #36
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Again well said and because we understand so little then we tend make assumptions for everything else - hence this is what make its so complicated. The very simple answer the original question is that nothing comes from nothing.

    By superpower I mean something (not nothing) created all this and therefore because all this is so vast then it can be referred to as a superpower. Only I think we personify this superpower only because we know of nothing more intelligent than us, therefore it must be like us.

    I'm still not sure what you mean by superpower. Would you consider a cloud of energy to be a superpower, similar to the area of static electricity that gathers before a lightning strike?


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  • #37
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    karlog wrote: »
    I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself.
    I treat it like the question of how my shirt appears ironed on the table for me everyone morning, its something which while perhaps interesting to investigate isn't really going to effect me in any meaningful way so I'm not bothered if there's an answer for it or not.


  • #38
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The question assumes that the Universe is finite. I don't believe that it is. I think it's infinately long and has always existed. It's us as humans who have severe problems understanding the theory of something being infinite.

    I think that the Universe is a cycle. It expands, and contracts (via possibly a super black-hole), and expands again (possibly via a big bang). It continues this cycle every couple of 100 billion years perhaps. This is just my guesstimate. Nobody can answer with certainty.

    This may be your belief, but the observations don't necessarily support your hypothesis. It's looking more likely that the universe is "open" and will therefore continue to expand, rather than contract at some point.

    Also, the idea that this universe is just the result of the "last universe" contracting and so ad infinitum raises the exact same issue as believing that a god who always existed caused it. You're falling back on saying that an infinite process caused the universe. But what caused the process?


  • #39
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm still not sure what you mean by superpower. Would you consider a cloud of energy to be a superpower, similar to the area of static electricity that gathers before a lightning strike?

    By using the word superpower I mean that it (something) was able to create all this - superpower may not be the correct word but it had special to be able create our universe. Which begs the question, where did the superpower come from? Again not from nothing is my opinion. Everything must start from something but where did the first something come from? Not from nothing so its just way too complicated to be understood.

    On another question, it would seem that the universe can never end but is this possible? Maybe it repeats, like a CD plays the first track again when the last track plays out, so that the end, if there is one, is the start again? Again this would be something special.
    All much too complicated to ever understand.


  • #40
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Everything must start from something

    HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?


  • #41
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Zillah wrote: »
    HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?

    Logic and I think logic applies.
    If the universe started from nothing, what was there before the universe started?

    Please don't tell me nothing...


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  • #42
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Logic
    If the universe started from nothing, what was there before the universe started?

    Please don't tell me nothing...

    But logic wouldn't tell you there are 11 dimensions or that time slows down as you get close to the speed of light. The universe does not necessarily fit into what we consider logical
    Little Mickey wrote: »
    By using the word superpower I mean that it (something) was able to create all this - superpower may not be the correct word but it had special to be able create our universe.
    what do you mean by special? As I said above, if the universal laws as we know them don't apply then creating matter might be no more difficult or amazing than flicking a light switch. On earth it would take someone very special to jump 20 feet in the air but on the moon anyone can do it.

    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Which begs the question, where did the superpower come from? Again not from nothing is my opinion. Everything must start from something but where did the first something come from? Not from nothing so its just way too complicated to be understood.
    So really saying it was a superpower answers nothing because you have an infinite regress of greater superpowers :P
    Little Mickey wrote: »
    On another question, it would seem that the universe can never end but is this possible? Maybe it repeats, like a CD plays the first track again when the last track plays out, so that the end, if there is one, is the start again? Again this would be something special.
    All much too complicated to ever understand.

    I don't know if it's possible. We'll probably never know


  • #43
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Logic and I think logic applies.
    If the universe started from nothing, what was there before the universe started?

    Please don't tell me nothing...

    Maybe the laws of physics were so distorted before the way they are now that nothing was everything and something or both or maybe it was a gray haired/bearded man that was built like Arnie sitting on his physics defying super powered cloud with a bunch of androgynous winged folk for groupies.


  • #44
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Logic and I think logic applies.
    If the universe started from nothing, what was there before the universe started?

    Please don't tell me nothing...

    Who said it started from nothing? More importantly, who can demonstrate this?


  • #45
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    But logic wouldn't tell you there are 11 dimensions or that time slows down as you get close to the speed of light. The universe does not necessarily fit into what we consider logical

    The word you are looking for is intuitive. The universe is not intuitive but it is highly logical in a mathematical sense.


  • #46
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Maybe the laws of physics were so distorted before the way they are now that nothing was everything and something or both

    Maybe we need to write a new english dictionary :D:D:D

    Even if the universe came from nothing something had to cause it and that something had to exist.


  • #47
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Maybe we need to write a new english dictionary :D:D:D

    Even if the universe came from nothing something had to cause it and that something had to exist.

    Only by the current universe's physical standards.


  • #48
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Logic and I think logic applies.
    If the universe started from nothing, what was there before the universe started?

    Logic has nothing to do with it. Everything we can conceive, including logic, cause and effect and TIME itself came into being with the universe. There is no "before" the universe. There has never been a point in time at which the universe did not exist.

    When you say something can't come from nothing it is a baseless assertion.
    Please don't tell me nothing...

    We don't know, neither do you.
    Even if the universe came from nothing something had to cause it and that something had to exist.

    The very concept of a cause requires time. Time came into existence with the universe, therefore so did cause and effect.


  • #49
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Approaching the question with a linear time perspective is not the correct way to look at it. Time is part of the fabric of the universe, outside our universe time does not flow as it does within it. Without linear time it's is possible for events in the future to trigger events in the past.

    To answer the question directly, no I do not believe the universe came from nothing. What do I believe? As has been said many times we don't have enough information to even make a good guess so for now all I believe is that I don't know.


  • #50
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Zillah wrote: »
    There is no "before" the universe.

    Seriously I think we have the best analysis here, because it's likely that there was never nothing, we do agree that time is infinite?

    edit: if not, how long was "nothing" there before the universe?


  • #51
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    sink wrote: »
    Approaching the question with a linear time perspective is not the correct way to look at it. Time is part of the fabric of the universe, outside our universe time does not flow as it does within it. Without linear time it's is possible for events in the future to trigger events in the past.

    Fluuwha? There is no "outside" the universe. Time doesn't flow differently, it just doesn't flow, exist or impact in any way. And I'm not sure at all what you're doing with this backwards causation thing. Been reading some interesting blogs have we?
    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Seriously I think we have the best analysis here, because it's likely that there was never nothing, we do agree that time is infinite?

    Absolutely not. There was a very distinct point at which time began; the big bang. Time came into existence with the big bang. You seem to have a very difficult notion of the concept of "nothing". I'm not saying nothing existed, I'm saying that there was no thing that existed. (Of course I mean that in terms of the universe as we know it. There's nothing preventing a level of reality beyond space time as we know from providing a meta-structure in which big bangs can occur, it's just that we cannot in any way detect it, predict it or interact with it. There could have been an entirely separate space-time universe that ceased to exist at the instant ours came into existence. But we don't know.)


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  • #52
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Seriously I think we have the best analysis here, because it's likely that there was never nothing, we do agree that time is infinite?

    edit: if not, how long was "nothing" there before the universe?

    You cannot measure the absence of something in the terms of what is absent. How many mililitres can be held in a glass which does not exist?

    I'm pretty sure, also, you could discuss all day whether time's infinite or not. (I do love those discussions though :) )


  • #53
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Zillah wrote: »
    Fluuwha? There is no "outside" the universe. Time doesn't flow differently, it just doesn't flow, exist or impact in any way. And I'm not sure at all what you're doing with this backwards causation thing. Been reading some interesting blogs have we?

    Whether there is any thing outside our universe has yet to be determined. Whether a different form of time or no time at all exists outside of our universe has yet to be determined. Backwards causation has been postulated many times (Feynman, Bell labs) in different forms but it's possibility has yet to be determined. We can't definitively say anything about the origin of the universe.


  • #54
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    sink wrote: »
    Whether there is any thing outside our universe has yet to be determined. Whether a different form of time or no time at all exists outside of our universe has yet to be determined. Backwards causation has been postulated many times (Feynman, Bell labs) in different forms but it's possibility has yet to be determined. We can't definitively say anything about the origin of the universe.

    The way we're all talking about this reminds me of this quote from the great Bertrand Russell :)

    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."


  • #55
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    sink wrote: »
    Whether there is any thing outside our universe has yet to be determined. Whether a different form of time or no time at all exists outside of our universe has yet to be determined. Backwards causation has been postulated many times (Feynman, Bell labs) in different forms but it's possibility has yet to be determined. We can't definitively say anything about the origin of the universe.

    Hey you're the one who was talking as if he knew there was some alternative type of time outside the universe:
    sink wrote: »
    Approaching the question with a linear time perspective is not the correct way to look at it. Time is part of the fabric of the universe, outside our universe time does not flow as it does within it. Without linear time it's is possible for events in the future to trigger events in the past.

    Anyway...
    Little Mickey wrote: »
    edit: if not, how long was "nothing" there before the universe?

    It wasn't.

    That's the point. I don't think you really understand what "nothing" means.


  • #56
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Zillah wrote: »
    Absolutely not. There was a very distinct point at which time began; the big bang. Time came into existence with the big bang. You seem to have a very difficult notion of the concept of "nothing". I'm not saying nothing existed, I'm saying that there was no thing that existed. (Of course I mean that in terms of the universe as we know it. There's nothing preventing a level of reality beyond space time as we know from providing a meta-structure in which big bangs can occur, it's just that we cannot in any way detect it, predict it or interact with it. There could have been anentirely separate space-time universe that ceased to exist at the instant ours came into existence. But we don't know.)

    nothing = no thing

    There could have been anentirely separate space-time universe that ceased to exist at the instant ours came into existence = something

    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


  • #57
    Little Mickey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Little Mickey


    Zillah wrote: »
    It wasn't.

    That's the point. I don't think you really understand what "nothing" means.

    On what scale are we measuring time?


  • #58
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    Seriously I think we have the best analysis here, because it's likely that there was never nothing, we do agree that time is infinite?

    edit: if not, how long was "nothing" there before the universe?

    I don't think you're getting it.

    Time had a start: The big bang. There was no "before" the big bang. Therefore asking how long was there nothing before the universe is meaningless.

    Now, that doesn't mean that there was infinite nothing before the big bang - there wasn't anything before the big bang - that includes infinity. So any talk of before the big bang is inherently meaningless - it's like talking about the taste of Tuesday.

    As for time being infinite, it might be. But just in the future direction.


  • #59
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I'm sorry, perhaps I was not very clear in my phrasing. I'm presenting two separate notions here.

    One is the fact that we do not know if there was a cause for the universe, or if there is anything at all outside of the universe as we know it. Anyone who asserts something like "It was God!" or "It can't have come from nothing!" are making baseless claims.

    The second point I was making was to propose some hypothetical notions that may be the case, but it's just a little thought game, we have no way of knowing.
    Little Mickey wrote:
    On what scale are we measuring time?

    I don't know what you mean. Not even a little bit.


  • #60
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Little Mickey wrote: »
    There could have been an entirely separate space-time universe that ceased to exist at the instant ours came into existence

    On what grounds are you supposing this?


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  • #61
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    phutyle wrote: »
    As for time being infinite, it might be. But just in the future direction.

    Well, our physics breaks down as we get to the big bang, hence we quite possibly will never know, but it is theorised that the big bang was as the result of a big crunch. Hence it would look like this:

    [time...time...time] then [big crunch big bang super singularity] then [time...time...time]

    So this could be Time 2: Return of Space-Time.

    Of course we then deal with questions of why does our universe not appear to be heading for a big crunch if it has the same energy/mass count as the last universe...but there are variables to consider. Matter and anti-matter were both created in the Big Bang, and then duked it out for control. Matter won, but if one had won by a bigger margin then there would be more mass and therefore more gravity.

    There's also an awesome theory for dark gravity in that it is gravity bleeding into our universe from other universes that exist in the multiverse, and maybe our degree of connection with those is different than last time.

    Great thought games really. Still gonna have to go with "We don't know".


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