SF campaign against education cuts

Riskymove · 25-08-2009 12:58PM #1

Sinn Féin has begun a campaign against cutbacks in education.

Speaking at the launch of the "Leave Our Schools Alone" campaign today, Senator Pearse Doherty said the education budget should be exempt from Government cutbacks as was "crucial to our long term economic recovery".

Mr Doherty said class sizes were set to increase, resources would be "slashed", book grants abolished and that children would continue to be educated in "dilapidated, overcrowded buildings and prefabs even though building new schools would create employment".

Mr Doherty said the Government was "slow to react to the recession and is now implementing short sighted measures which target our children and which are ultimately detrimental to our economic recovery".

"While we all know that we are in dire economic circumstances, we believe that our education budget must be exempt from Government cutbacks. In fact it makes no economic sense to be cutting the education budget as it is crucial to our long term economic recovery."

Mr Doherty said his party was demanding "a first-class education system that enables future generations reach their potential and that is properly funded through a fair and progressive taxation system rather than the current situation where under-resourced schools are increasingly dependent through parents’ contributions and fundraising efforts".

exempt one of the biggest elements of spending?

I presume next week they will want to exempt health too

randypriest · 25-08-2009 01:03PM

Sinn Fein dont have a clue. Good thing they will never get into Government.

P. Breathnach · 25-08-2009 01:09PM

randypriest wrote: »

Sinn Fein dont have a clue.

They do have a clue. The electorate have a record of voting for parties that promise them the sun, moon, and stars, regardless of our ability to pay for such policies.

Good thing they will never get into Government.

Not for a long time, anyway -- but their economic policies are not the reason.

eamonnm79 · 25-08-2009 01:09PM

The only cuts that I think can be justified are those to teacher/principle/examiner/inspector salaries.
They are too high.
I was shocked when I saw that the average was between 50k and 64k

There is no need for this level of pay (well above the industrial avarage).
It is supposed to be a vocation!
The CAO points required for Teaching speaks volumes for the value intelligent young people are putting on this career.
Long holidays, Short working days, Excellent pensions.
Salaries need to come down 20%

Diarmuid · 25-08-2009 01:38PM

randypriest wrote: »

Sinn Fein dont have a clue.

The economic illiterates, as Michael O Leary called them

kmick · 25-08-2009 01:47PM

From now I suggest there is a law passed whereby if someone wants something exempted from cuts they need to to suggest what gets cut/taxed instead. So Sinn Fein suggest Education is exempt then they say instead we tax fuel/property/childrens shoes to the tune of the 6/10/100 billion.

I read an article today that says Harney gave the unions a choice job cuts or pay cuts. Unions of course said niether and they would strike if forced to choose. At least they have the choice. However I would suggest she gives a third choice lets call it "Your Call".

So now the choice is 4000 job cuts/8% pay decrease/"Your Choice" to the tune of -400m. Let them decide.

nesf · 25-08-2009 05:44PM

kmick wrote: »

From now I suggest there is a law passed whereby if someone wants something exempted from cuts they need to to suggest what gets cut/taxed instead. So Sinn Fein suggest Education is exempt then they say instead we tax fuel/property/childrens shoes to the tune of the 6/10/100 billion.

I read an article today that says Harney gave the unions a choice job cuts or pay cuts. Unions of course said niether and they would strike if forced to choose. At least they have the choice. However I would suggest she gives a third choice lets call it "Your Call".

So now the choice is 4000 job cuts/8% pay decrease/"Your Choice" to the tune of -400m. Let them decide.

You're assuming that they'd make realistic proposals that would save the money over a reasonable time period. In reality what would happen is that the union would propose a fanciful plan aiming cuts at whoever their base dislikes. Asking a union to suggest how to take money or jobs off its members is pointless, they can't, because of their jobs, do something like that unless there's a very realistic chance of everyone losing their jobs if they don't which isn't exactly likely for public unions.

kmick · 26-08-2009 08:23AM

nesf wrote: »

You're assuming that they'd make realistic proposals that would save the money over a reasonable time period. In reality what would happen is that the union would propose a fanciful plan aiming cuts at whoever their base dislikes. Asking a union to suggest how to take money or jobs off its members is pointless, they can't, because of their jobs, do something like that unless there's a very realistic chance of everyone losing their jobs if they don't which isn't exactly likely for public unions.

Well then they just revert to whichever is likely to cause least pain in this case a pay cut. The money is not there so there is no status quo. We are borrowing 400m per week and that is unsustainable.

irish_bob · 26-08-2009 10:05AM

more left wing populist waffle , as if we hadnt heard enough of it from labour

P. Breathnach · 26-08-2009 10:15AM

irish_bob wrote: »

more left wing populist waffle , as if we hadnt heard enough of it from labour

Is it any worse than your right-wing populism?

the_syco · 26-08-2009 10:22AM

Mr Doherty said class sizes were set to increase, resources would be "slashed", book grants abolished and that children would continue to be educated in "dilapidated, overcrowded buildings and prefabs even though building new schools would create employment".

Building stuff costs money.

"While we all know that we are in dire economic circumstances, we believe that our education budget must be exempt from Government cutbacks. In fact it makes no economic sense to be cutting the education budget as it is crucial to our long term economic recovery."

We has no money.

that is properly funded through a fair and progressive taxation system

Like how you wanted to tax the bajeasus out of every company? F**king Shinners.

irish_bob · 26-08-2009 08:34PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is it any worse than your right-wing populism?

your right , of course :rolleyes:

bernardo mac · 28-08-2009 10:06AM

eamonnm79 wrote: »

The only cuts that I think can be justified are those to teacher/principle/examiner/inspector salaries.
They are too high.
I was shocked when I saw that the average was between 50k and 64k

There is no need for this level of pay (well above the industrial avarage).
It is supposed to be a vocation!
The CAO points required for Teaching speaks volumes for the value intelligent young people are putting on this career.
Long holidays, Short working days, Excellent pensions.
Salaries need to come down 20%

I suggest you spend some time on the frontline, teaching today's teenagers and I bet you'd opt for bomb disposal or Afghanistan, if given the choice.:eek:

ceret · 28-08-2009 12:40PM

kmick wrote: »

From now I suggest there is a law passed whereby if someone wants something exempted from cuts they need to to suggest what gets cut/taxed instead. So Sinn Fein suggest Education is exempt then they say instead we tax fuel/property/childrens shoes to the tune of the 6/10/100 billion.

Definitly.

I read an article today that says Harney gave the unions a choice job cuts or pay cuts. Unions of course said niether and they would strike if forced to choose. At least they have the choice. However I would suggest she gives a third choice lets call it "Your Call".

Oh interesting... got a link?

Lemming · 28-08-2009 12:54PM

bernardo mac wrote: »

I suggest you spend some time on the frontline, teaching today's teenagers and I bet you'd opt for bomb disposal or Afghanistan, if given the choice.:eek:

What's so different about today's teenagers from yesterday's teenagers? Each set hsa their own culture/issues/etc. and the teachers argument is no different to the teachers argument twenty years ago.

The profession is woefully overpaid and underworked next to any other country in Europe and do not represent value for money to the taxpayer or ultimately give the nation's children the best shot at education due to that despite what individual teachers may or may not do for their classes. Sorry, but that's how it is when push comes to shove. I don't want to see education suffer, but the reality is that the money isn't there, the sector has had appalling wastage in monetary value terms over the last however many years of economic boom we've had, and is in need of some element of reform financially.

ardmacha · 28-08-2009 01:14PM

I don't want to see education suffer, but the reality is that the money isn't there, the sector has had appalling wastage in monetary value terms over the last however many years of economic boom we've had,

If the sector has had such appalling wastage why has it been possible to run it at a lower cost per student than other West European countries? I am not saying that there shouldn't be some sort of adjustments, but education has not been some sort of bottomless pit as portrayed by some here. Irish education has produced outcomes comparable with other prosperous nations at a below average cost and so has by no means been the worst value for taxpayers expenditure.

Lemming · 28-08-2009 02:11PM

ardmacha wrote: »

If the sector has had such appalling wastage why has it been possible to run it at a lower cost per student than other West European countries? I am not saying that there shouldn't be some sort of adjustments, but education has not been some sort of bottomless pit as portrayed by some here. Irish education has produced outcomes comparable with other prosperous nations at a below average cost and so has by no means been the worst value for taxpayers expenditure.

"lower cost per student" is misleading. What's being delivered for that perceived lower cost? It's a statement which I find at stark odds with the well publicised and debated figures concerning the working hours and pay of teachers in this country vs. elsewhere in Europe, combined with the apparent general lack of funding for school facilities and the likes of special needs teachers against wages and lower working hours.

irish_bob · 28-08-2009 08:20PM

ardmacha wrote: »

If the sector has had such appalling wastage why has it been possible to run it at a lower cost per student than other West European countries? I am not saying that there shouldn't be some sort of adjustments, but education has not been some sort of bottomless pit as portrayed by some here. Irish education has produced outcomes comparable with other prosperous nations at a below average cost and so has by no means been the worst value for taxpayers expenditure.

teachers in ireland are paid 55% more than their counterparts in finland yet when it comes to the list of countries with the best level of education , finland is in the top three yet ireland is not even in the top 20 , like in every other state sector in this country , the vast bulk of expenditure goes on wages which is why the teachers weasel words about how the children will suffer with high class sizes must be exposed , class sizes can easily be reduced and special needs teachers need not be let go if teachers as a whole simply take a pay cut and thier salarys are brought closer into line with thier european counterparts

Yixian · 29-08-2009 08:46AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not for a long time, anyway -- but their economic policies are not the reason.

Their economic policies are probably the most sensible and progressive of all the major parties in the republic.

Taxipete29 · 29-08-2009 10:38AM

Why should people educated to degree level and then do their H-dip be expected to earn less than other graduates? They may not at the moment but if you reduce salaries then the attractiveness of one of the most important jobs in the country goes down.

Teaching might be a vocation, but where in the definition of that term does it mean that the person with the vocation should be of a lesser value in monetary terms.

irish_bob · 29-08-2009 04:38PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why should people educated to degree level and then do their H-dip be expected to earn less than other graduates? They may not at the moment but if you reduce salaries then the attractiveness of one of the most important jobs in the country goes down.

Teaching might be a vocation, but where in the definition of that term does it mean that the person with the vocation should be of a lesser value in monetary terms.

teachers in ireland are paid 55% more than in finland which is a richer country than us , they are paid nearly 30% more than thier counterparts in the uk which is also a richer country than us , the , they wont become teachers if we reduce salarys argument is a nonsense , the same with gardai , gardai are rewarded extremely generously in this country considering how modestly one must perform in school in order to qualify for an garda siochana , both professions are way out of line with other countries , time people wised up to this

nesf · 29-08-2009 04:41PM

irish_bob wrote: »

teachers in ireland are paid 55% more than in finland which is a richer country than us , they are paid nearly 30% more than thier counterparts in the uk which is also a richer country than us , the , they wont become teachers if we reduce salarys argument is a nonsense , the same with gardai , gardai are rewarded extremely generously in this country considering how modestly one must perform in school in order to qualify for an garda siochana , both professions are way out of line with other countries , time people wised up to this

Given the unusual state of Sterling/Euro exchange rates at the moment making salary comparisons with the UK isn't very useful. Historically Sterling had a much higher value until recently and one cannot expect salaries to adjust very quickly to such a change. This means that direct comparisons between Irish and UK prices of anything (be it wages for teachers, a bottle of milk or social welfare rates) will make the UK look a lot cheaper than it actually is.

Taxipete29 · 30-08-2009 02:31AM

irish_bob wrote: »

teachers in ireland are paid 55% more than in finland which is a richer country than us , they are paid nearly 30% more than thier counterparts in the uk which is also a richer country than us , the , they wont become teachers if we reduce salarys argument is a nonsense , the same with gardai , gardai are rewarded extremely generously in this country considering how modestly one must perform in school in order to qualify for an garda siochana , both professions are way out of line with other countries , time people wised up to this

The skills required to become a Guard are not necessarily ones that are tested by the leaving cert.

Why is that argument a nonsense?? If you have stats or details of studies to back up your claims please share. I dont think we would run short of teachers if we reduced salaries but the competition would be lessened. The competition for a teachers job should be fierce and it is at present and I think it should stay that way.

Why do you think teachers should earn less considering they are all graduates and also have their H Dip??? Oh and saying teachers in other countries earn less is not an argument.I am looking for a real reason.

dvpower · 30-08-2009 08:35AM

teachers salaries would need to be cut substantially before we would have recruitment problems. Increasing mobility, both in and out of the sector would also help.

Taxipete29 · 30-08-2009 10:39AM

dvpower wrote: »

teachers salaries would need to be cut substantially before we would have recruitment problems. Increasing mobility, both in and out of the sector would also help.

Can you explain what you mean by this please??

irish_bob · 30-08-2009 10:54AM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The skills required to become a Guard are not necessarily ones that are tested by the leaving cert.

Why is that argument a nonsense?? If you have stats or details of studies to back up your claims please share. I dont think we would run short of teachers if we reduced salaries but the competition would be lessened. The competition for a teachers job should be fierce and it is at present and I think it should stay that way.

Why do you think teachers should earn less considering they are all graduates and also have their H Dip??? Oh and saying teachers in other countries earn less is not an argument.I am looking for a real reason.

if you dont see the arguement in paying our teachers no more than countries which are wealtheir than us , then il save myself some time and quit

Taxipete29 · 30-08-2009 10:55AM

irish_bob wrote: »

if you dont see the arguement in paying our teachers no more than countries which are wealtheir than us , then il save myself some time and quit

These so called wealthier countries are also alot less expensive to live in than Ireland.

How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

dvpower · 30-08-2009 11:31AM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean by this please??

1. There is a lot of competition for teaching positions. We could pay less.
2. Its very difficult to get rid of bad teachers. Its also difficult for teachers to move in and out of industry. Its also difficult for the rest of us to move in and out of teaching.

Taxipete29 · 30-08-2009 11:47AM

dvpower wrote: »

1. There is a lot of competition for teaching positions. We could pay less.
2. Its very difficult to get rid of bad teachers. Its also difficult for teachers to move in and out of industry. Its also difficult for the rest of us to move in and out of teaching.

That competition would be reduced considerably if you reduce salaries. This would not happen initially as many are just qualified and many still in the system studying. However the future intent of many to enter the profession would be lessened.

I agree there should be more scope to get rid of bad teachers. This is an absolute must.

Maybe the Finnish model should be looked at whereby all teachers must be qualified to Masters level. They do not have specific teacher training but they do allow teachers alot more scope to decide what and how they teach.
This would allow more room for professional people who seek a career change to consider teaching as an option without having to go back and study for the H dip.

irish_bob · 30-08-2009 08:45PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

These so called wealthier countries are also alot less expensive to live in than Ireland.

How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

whats that got to do with anything and as ive said many times , we cant use rip off ireland ( which is a whole other issue in itself ) as the main reason why we have to pay our teachers more than anyone else , the cost of living in ireland will come back significantly for the simple reason that it has to , the country is becoming poorer , peoples purchasing power is falling and the market will dictate that the cost of living must come down so as to be reasonably compatible with peoples purchasing power , teachers , police , doctors , all theese professions will have to take further pay cuts , the pension levy was nothing

ardmacha · 31-08-2009 12:23AM

yet when it comes to the list of countries with the best level of education , finland is in the top three yet ireland is not even in the top 20 , like in every other state sector in this country , the vast bulk of expenditure goes on wages

On the OECD PISA stats Ireland is above the OECD average for reading and about average for maths. The government in the State has run a cheap education service, with generous enough pay for the teachers to hold it all together. Wages are a bigger proportion of expenditure, but this partly relects the miserable expenditure on everything else.

As I said, average outputs for below average expenditure.

However I welcome discussion of Finland in this, we should benchmark against the best and not always be talking about the UK which has its own issues and which is not richer than us. Are you proposing that other aspects of Finnish public policy be introduced, or just the teacher salary bit of it?

peoples purchasing power is falling and the market will dictate that the cost of living must come down so as to be reasonably compatible with peoples purchasing power , teachers , police , doctors , all theese professions will have to take further pay cuts , the pension levy was nothing

The pension levy was about the decline in GDP this year, so is certainly something. All wages in Ireland are too high and not only public sector ones, plumbers, dentists etc can charge a third more than in the North. THis is a general issue, not directly related to education. However wages in things like education with constant or increasing demand would not decline as much as in sectors which have lost demand for their services.

A hospital consultant earns 4 or 5 times as much as a headmaster. Is this also true in Finland?

Taxipete29 · 31-08-2009 01:09AM

irish_bob wrote: »

whats that got to do with anything and as ive said many times , we cant use rip off ireland ( which is a whole other issue in itself ) as the main reason why we have to pay our teachers more than anyone else , the cost of living in ireland will come back significantly for the simple reason that it has to , the country is becoming poorer , peoples purchasing power is falling and the market will dictate that the cost of living must come down so as to be reasonably compatible with peoples purchasing power , teachers , police , doctors , all theese professions will have to take further pay cuts , the pension levy was nothing

Your avoiding my question. How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

irish_bob · 31-08-2009 09:49AM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Your avoiding my question. How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

that sounds like a philosophical question

Riskymove · 31-08-2009 09:53AM

irish_bob wrote: »

that sounds like a philosophical question

that would be an ecumenical matter

Taxipete29 · 31-08-2009 10:23AM

irish_bob wrote: »

that sounds like a philosophical question

No its very straightforward. The fact that you wont answer furthers my view that you really dont understand what your talking about.

SF campaign against education cuts

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