Purgatory, Hell and Heaven. [Christian Responses Only]

Turtwig · 07-11-2009 01:07AM #1

Note : Non Christian.

The last thread got borked, and I was hoping to find out some things about hell and purgatory so if the mods don't mind I'm starting a new one.

Purgatory is a concept (is concept the right word?) that is a little unclear to me. As I understand it from a Catholic background, it is to do with cleansing the soul of some sins which weren't worthy of hell but not worthy of heaven either. Is this purely Catholic based or do other Christians agree with this?

Hell is purgatory for eternity? Is there any mention of an escape clause (you know I have to ask this:D).

One final question : Where do the gates of heaven come in? Do the bible mention that we actually stand before them, or are they just an re-imagining by artists or the like?

Appreciate the input.:)

Side Note : I almost created this in the A&A forum, is there any way to colour code the forums (in my settings) as I consistently mix up which one I'm in at times- leading to very fast edits sometimes:o

Soul Winner · 07-11-2009 02:49AM

PDN · 07-11-2009 03:26AM

From a non-Catholic standpoint: No purgatory. No gates to heaven.

Believers, upon death, go to heaven until they will be raised from the dead at the Second Coming.

Unsaved, upon death, go to Hades - and then to Hell at the final judgement.

TEMPLAR KNIGHT · 07-11-2009 04:06AM

im a christian i dont beleive in the gates of heaven thing i believe once your in heaven your there, theres going to be no gates locking you out and as for hell i believe only a select few will burn for eternity and the rest of us will serve some time in something like purgatory i believe well all have to pay for the bad things in our life one way or another but i dont believe there will be a lot of people burning in hell for eternity as GOD IS LOVE!

Morbert · 07-11-2009 04:50AM

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

"False theories of eternal punishment of the wicked have done unfathomable damage in the religious realm. Untold millions of people have obeyed God purely out of fear of a false concept of hell. Other untold millions have turned their backs on God because of a false sense of hell, as described by Roman Catholic sources, and their followers in most denominations.

This study shows that when John the Baptist and Jesus used these terms, they used language familiar to the Jews whom they taught. The Jews had heard this language no other way than in scenes of national judgment. While it is easy for us to read these passages from the point of view of enduring conscious punishment, we should read them as the Jews who heard them first. "

For Christianity's sake, I hope the above article is on to something. If there was ever a Christian belief capable of destroying Christianity as a faith, it was the belief that hell is a place of literally eternal torment.

Overheal · 07-11-2009 05:00AM

Morbert wrote: »

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

"False theories of eternal punishment of the wicked have done unfathomable damage in the religious realm. Untold millions of people have obeyed God purely out of fear of a false concept of hell. Other untold millions have turned their backs on God because of a false sense of hell, as described by Roman Catholic sources, and their followers in most denominations.

This study shows that when John the Baptist and Jesus used these terms, they used language familiar to the Jews whom they taught. The Jews had heard this language no other way than in scenes of national judgment. While it is easy for us to read these passages from the point of view of enduring conscious punishment, we should read them as the Jews who heard them first. "

For Christianity's sake, I hope the above article is on to something. If there was ever a Christian belief capable of destroying Christianity as a faith, it was the belief that hell is a place of literally eternal torment.

Hang on, so hell doesnt exist? I mean in Christian belief?

Not a Christian Response, just a question!

Morbert · 07-11-2009 05:05AM

Overheal wrote: »

Hang on, so hell doesnt exist? I mean in Christian belief?

Not a Christian Response, just a question!

It is my (non-christian) understanding that hell, according the Bible, does exist. It is the claim that it is a place of eternal torture that might not be strictly Biblical.

PDN · 07-11-2009 08:27AM

Overheal wrote: »

Hang on, so hell doesnt exist? I mean in Christian belief?

Not a Christian Response, just a question!

In normal Christian belief, hell will indeed exist.

You get a few people within mainstream Christianity who deny hell, just as you get a few people with differing beliefs on just about any subject. Then you get groups on the fringes of Christianity who deny hell (eg Jehovahs Witnesses and Unitarian Universalists).

Daftendirekt · 07-11-2009 10:40AM

Question from a non-believer:

Do most Christians view hell as a place of literal fire and burning, or is it a metaphor for spiritual suffering?

Fanny Cradock · 07-11-2009 10:47AM

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Question from a non-believer:

Do most Christians view hell as a place of literal fire and burning, or is it a metaphor for spiritual suffering?

The pitch forks and red devils are probably about as accurate as harps and clouds. Dante and Medieval perspectives have conjured up images that are unsupported and, by muddying the waters, have impoverished understanding of the basic message of Christianity.

homer911 · 07-11-2009 01:38PM

Morbert wrote: »

It is my (non-christian) understanding that hell, according the Bible, does exist. It is the claim that it is a place of eternal torture that might not be strictly Biblical.

This is just what Satan wants you to think...

Morbert · 07-11-2009 03:12PM

homer911 wrote: »

This is just what Satan wants you to think...

Satan should be shouting about hell as fiery torture from the rooftops. No claim would turn people away from Christianity faster.

From Zizek:

"During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: 'Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.' "

philologos · 07-11-2009 03:37PM

Morbert wrote: »

"During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: 'Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.' "

This line struck out to me. What makes you think that Christianity claims people are saved by their good works?

You say that such a claim would turn people away from Christianity, but who are you talking about? Christians? I don't see why people who have received God's grace would turn away from it even if hell or heaven didn't exist.

Ephesians 2:8-9 wrote:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Turtwig · 07-11-2009 03:39PM

Jakkass wrote: »

This line struck out to me. What makes you think that Christianity claims people are saved by their good works?

You say that such a claim would turn people away from Christianity, but who are you talking about? Christians? I don't see why people who have received God's grace would turn away from it even if hell or heaven didn't exist.

???

That line says nothing about works.
It simply says she wanted people to do good out of love for God, not fear of Him and His punishment.

philologos · 07-11-2009 03:43PM

People don't earn heaven, or grace, or salvation. It's God's gift to those who believe in Him.

We are all sinners, we have all fallen short, therefore it is impossible that we are saved by our own goodness, but rather the goodness of Jesus Christ.

My point is she has the right understanding of it!

I'm just confused as to what point Morbert is making with it.

Turtwig · 07-11-2009 03:45PM

Jakkass wrote: »

People don't earn heaven, or grace, or salvation. It's God's gift to those who believe in Him.

We are all sinners, we have all fallen short, therefore it is impossible that we are saved by our own goodness, but rather the goodness of Jesus Christ.

My point is she has the right understanding of it!

Yeah I get your point, but what has it do to with disagreeing with or correcting her
??
Your point is not referring to her to point at all.
She simply said.

People should do good out of LOVE for God, not fear.

Nothing about works or what saves a Christian.

Edit : just saw your whole post.

Apologies

philologos · 07-11-2009 03:46PM

I'm referring to what Morbert means when he says this:

Satan should be shouting about hell as fiery torture from the rooftops. No claim would turn people away from Christianity faster.

I think the quote is spot on, but I'm confused with this bit above ^^

The quote does deal with works and why people do good:

'Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.'

The presumption is that good works earn paradise. In Christianity this has never been the case. So her point is the same as Paul's.

Turtwig · 07-11-2009 03:48PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm referring to what Morbert means when he says this:

I think the quote is spot on, but I'm confused with this bit above ^^

Damn you are fast!!:)
(Seriously do you have real-time GoogleWave-like boards, or something?)

Admittingly, I too am confused.

Edit : Ah Jeez you've added even more since

Morbert · 07-11-2009 04:57PM

Jakkass wrote: »

This line struck out to me. What makes you think that Christianity claims people are saved by their good works?

You say that such a claim would turn people away from Christianity, but who are you talking about? Christians? I don't see why people who have received God's grace would turn away from it even if hell or heaven didn't exist.

I'm talking about non-Christians, or people on the fence, trying to decide whether Christianity is real, or a man-made religion. Talk of eternal torture sounds like nothing more than a bully tactic, and is in stark contrast with a God who is supposed to be love.

homer911 · 07-11-2009 05:24PM

Morbert wrote: »

Satan should be shouting about hell as fiery torture from the rooftops. No claim would turn people away from Christianity faster.

From Zizek:

"During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: 'Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.' "

Sorry!! I read you post too quickly and got it backwards - where are my glasses...)

Hell does exist, Satan doesn't want people to know about it - that way he gets more guests! (who cant go "home")

Morbert · 07-11-2009 05:50PM

homer911 wrote: »

Sorry!! I read you post too quickly and got it backwards - where are my glasses...)

Hell does exist, Satan doesn't want people to know about it - that way he gets more guests! (who cant go "home")

Hell is not Satan's realm. It would presumably be as unpleasant for him as it would be for us. But that's beside the point. I'm not disputing the existence of hell. I'm disputing the existence of a place of eternal torment, with descriptions like the one below:

"See on the middle of that red-hot floor stands a girl: she looks about sixteen years old. Her feet are bare. Listen; she speaks. “I have been standing on this red-hot floor for years! Look at my burnt and bleeding feet! Let me go off this burning floor for one moment!” The fifth dungeon is the red-hot oven. The little child is in the red-hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor. God was very good to this little child. Very likely God saw it would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished more severely in hell. So God in His mercy called it out of the world in early childhood. (J. Furniss, The Sight of Hell [London and Dublin: Duffy], cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 416.)"

As Templar has already mentioned, the God of Christianity is supposed to be a God of love. He wants people to return through Him out of love, not fear of hell. Nothing would pervert the message of Christianity more than to put the fear of hell into people.

philologos · 07-11-2009 06:34PM

Templar Knight: What do you think of this quote from Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew?

Matthew 7:13-14 wrote:

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

wolfsbane · 07-11-2009 06:48PM

Morbert said:

Hell is not Satan's realm. It would presumably be as unpleasant for him as it would be for us.

Well observed. Many non-Christians get that wrong.

But that's beside the point. I'm not disputing the existence of hell. I'm disputing the existence of a place of eternal torment, with descriptions like the one below:

"See on the middle of that red-hot floor stands a girl: she looks about sixteen years old. Her feet are bare. Listen; she speaks. “I have been standing on this red-hot floor for years! Look at my burnt and bleeding feet! Let me go off this burning floor for one moment!” The fifth dungeon is the red-hot oven. The little child is in the red-hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor. God was very good to this little child. Very likely God saw it would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished more severely in hell. So God in His mercy called it out of the world in early childhood. (J. Furniss, The Sight of Hell [London and Dublin: Duffy], cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 416.)"

As Templar has already mentioned, the God of Christianity is supposed to be a God of love. He wants people to return through Him out of love, not fear of hell. Nothing would pervert the message of Christianity more than to put the fear of hell into people.

That is a misconception of God. He is a God of love and righteousness - therefore hates wickedness and will certainly punish the unrepentant wicked. Those who can't see Him punishing anyone forever simply ignore the plain statements of the Bible. They let their idea of what should be contradict what God says is.

Fear of hell is a prime motivator to turn the wicked away from their sin and unto God. When they see the God who will forgive all their sins if they repent, then they are motivated by love of Him.

A few samples of what God actually says on the matter:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

wolfsbane · 07-11-2009 07:01PM

Malty_T said:

Purgatory is a concept (is concept the right word?)

I'm sure it is - it certainly is not an actuality.

that is a little unclear to me. As I understand it from a Catholic background, it is to do with cleansing the soul of some sins which weren't worthy of hell but not worthy of heaven either. Is this purely Catholic based or do other Christians agree with this?

I'm not sure about all the cults, but it it is not part of Protestant theology.

Hell is purgatory for eternity? Is there any mention of an escape clause (you know I have to ask this).

Hell (the final place of torment) is a place of no return.

One final question : Where do the gates of heaven come in? Do the bible mention that we actually stand before them, or are they just an re-imagining by artists or the like?

The picture comes from the symbolic description of the Church in glory, as given in Revelation. But it has nothing to do with the popular picture of everyone coming before Peter at the gates. That is just fiction.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2021&version=NKJV

I love the final part of that:
Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Morbert · 07-11-2009 09:01PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well observed. Many non-Christians get that wrong.

Indeed, as do many Christians.

That is a misconception of God. He is a God of love and righteousness - therefore hates wickedness and will certainly punish the unrepentant wicked. Those who can't see Him punishing anyone forever simply ignore the plain statements of the Bible. They let their idea of what should be contradict what God says is.

Fear of hell is a prime motivator to turn the wicked away from their sin and unto God. When they see the God who will forgive all their sins if they repent, then they are motivated by love of Him.

I have a couple of issues with this.

Firstly, a fear of hell might help to quell rebellion against God. But the problem facing Christianity today is not rebellion against God. It is a lack of knowledge of God. People simply do not believe He exists, and those non-Christians that do, believe that Christians are mistaken. Hell, in this case, will have the exact opposite effect, as nothing sounds more man-made, more artificial and childish, than the threat of eternal torture upon those who have not found a specific group of priests and scholars convincing. It's like the schoolyard bully who resorts to violence because he can't get his way through argument, respect and friendship.

Secondly, it makes no sense to say God endlessly tortures the unrepentant. I presume that a few seconds of hell would be enough to convince anyone to turn away from sin and to repent. If God ignores their repentance and continues to torture them regardless, then torture exists for its own sake. It stops being a punishment for the wicked, and starts being a vindictive celebration of pain and suffering.

A few samples of what God actually says on the matter:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I would throw my money in with the annihilationists', or universalists', interpretation of such passages. The wages of sin is death, eternal destruction. Or the wicked will face constant torment through God's judgement, until they are no longer wicked.

lmaopml · 07-11-2009 09:52PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Note : Non Christian.

The last thread got borked, and I was hoping to find out some things about hell and purgatory so if the mods don't mind I'm starting a new one.

Purgatory is a concept (is concept the right word?) that is a little unclear to me. As I understand it from a Catholic background, it is to do with cleansing the soul of some sins which weren't worthy of hell but not worthy of heaven either. Is this purely Catholic based or do other Christians agree with this?

Hell is purgatory for eternity? Is there any mention of an escape clause (you know I have to ask this:D).

One final question : Where do the gates of heaven come in? Do the bible mention that we actually stand before them, or are they just an re-imagining by artists or the like?

Appreciate the input.:)

Side Note : I almost created this in the A&A forum, is there any way to colour code the forums (in my settings) as I consistently mix up which one I'm in at times- leading to very fast edits sometimes:o

Hi Malty_T,

Yes, there seems to be a lot of speculation and hollywood theatrics about the Catholic version of hell. In truth, many Christians don't fully understand the concept either...and tend to think of eternal punishment by God because they were naughty..:rolleyes:

The way I understand it, and I am a 'Catholic', is that God doesn't punish us, we punish ourselves by rejecting God. Hell is not a 'place' as such, it's just a state of being without God....We can't be in Communion with God, unless we are spiritually pure and accept being in communion with him...

Here's what Pope John Paul II had to say....

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".
1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life "hell".
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

So, yes there has been a lot of misconception, and I hope this clears it up. I truely believe that anybody who puts 'fear' in front of facing the loving, merciful and forgiving God is doing both themselves, God and the listener a disservice! Above all the Christian God is a loving God....:)

Soul Winner · 08-11-2009 02:27AM

Morbert wrote: »

I'm talking about non-Christians, or people on the fence, trying to decide whether Christianity is real, or a man-made religion. Talk of eternal torture sounds like nothing more than a bully tactic, and is in stark contrast with a God who is supposed to be love.

God is not just a God of Love, He is also a God of Truth and Justice. He will not arbitrarily dish out love and fail to warn the objects of His love of any impending dangers which He knows are really there. Just because the subject of hell is not a popular message these days doesn't make it a false message, and anyone intending to speak the real truth about things will not let the fact of the subject's unpopularity get in the way of that. If you are on a collision course with destruction then you should appreciate the warnings given by those with a better vantage point than you. So warnings of hell which God knows are true aren't simply bully tactics based on lies in order to get you into the kingdom, they are real warnings about real dangers and you would be wise to heed them.

Morbert · 08-11-2009 03:20AM

[edit]-OOPS COMPLETELY MISREAD POST! APOLOGIES TO SOULWINNER!

Morbert · 08-11-2009 03:38AM

Anyway, after conflating Soulwinner's response with a post I made to wolfsbane, I'll try again to respond to Soul Winner's post.

God is not just a God of Love, He is also a God of Truth and Justice. He will not arbitrarily dish out love and fail to warn the objects of His love of any impending dangers which He knows are really there. Just because the subject of hell is not a popular message these days doesn't make it a false message, and anyone intending to speak the real truth about things will not let the fact of the subject's unpopularity get in the way of that. If you are on a collision course with destruction then you should appreciate the warnings given by those with a better vantage point than you. So warnings of hell which God knows are true aren't simply bully tactics based on lies in order to get you into the kingdom, they are real warnings about real dangers and you would be wise to heed them.

I'd say the same thing to this that I said to wolfsbane:

"A fear of hell might help to quell rebellion against God. But the problem facing Christianity today is not rebellion against God. It is a lack of knowledge of God. People simply do not believe He exists, and those non-Christians that do, believe that Christians are mistaken. Hell, in this case, will have the exact opposite effect, as nothing sounds more man-made, more artificial and childish, than the threat of eternal torture upon those who have not found a specific group of priests and scholars convincing. It's like the schoolyard bully who resorts to violence because he can't get his way through argument, respect and friendship."

I am saying is if it is true that hell is a place where people are tortured forever, then that is a truth that unfortunately sounds precisely like a lie invented by a religion as an intimidation tactic. Warnings of such a hell might have worked in the past (I imagine that's why medieval academics were so fond of them), but they are actively detrimental to Christianity today, which is why satan would be more than willing to promote such truths.

As an aside, I also don't believe that hell as a place of eternal fiery torture is compatible with a God that is love. The former seems wholly un-Christian.

Morbert · 08-11-2009 03:46AM

I forgot to respond to this.

Jakkass wrote: »

The presumption is that good works earn paradise. In Christianity this has never been the case. So her point is the same as Paul's.

While she specifically mentioned good works, I believe her point can be extended to accepting Jesus. With a little liberty, her response can be read as 'Because I want no one to repent and turn to Christ in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.'

Soul Winner · 08-11-2009 03:54AM

Morbert wrote: »

Anyway, after conflating Soulwinner's response with a post I made to wolfsbane, I'll try again to respond to Soul Winner's post.

I'd say the same thing to this that I said to wolfsbane:

"A fear of hell might help to quell rebellion against God. But the problem facing Christianity today is not rebellion against God. It is a lack of knowledge of God. People simply do not believe He exists, and those non-Christians that do, believe that Christians are mistaken. Hell, in this case, will have the exact opposite effect, as nothing sounds more man-made, more artificial and childish, than the threat of eternal torture upon those who have not found a specific group of priests and scholars convincing. It's like the schoolyard bully who resorts to violence because he can't get his way through argument, respect and friendship."

I am saying is if it is true that hell is a place where people are tortured forever, then that is a truth that unfortunately sounds precisely like a lie invented by a religion as an intimidation tactic. Warnings of such a hell might have worked in the past (I imagine that's why medieval academics were so fond of them), but they are actively detrimental to Christianity today, which is why satan would be more than willing to promote such truths.

As an aside, I also don't believe that hell as a place of eternal fiery torture is compatible with a God that is love. The former seems wholly un-Christian.

Hell is a God awful existence and anyone wishing to go there must be mad. I don't think that the people who will end up there are people who actually want to be there. They are just people who bet on the wrong horse in life, they trusted in a doctrine that was false i.e. "God doesn't really exist". They trusted the lie that God doesn't really exist and lived for themselves instead of trusting in God. If God does exist then they were wrong, what more can be said? But if God doesn't exist then we will never know anyway.

For the theist, if God doesn't really exist then it is really not a big deal as they will never be brought to account for their false belief. Whereas if God does exist then the atheist is wrong and he/she has hell to pay.

Overheal · 08-11-2009 04:48AM

Jakkass wrote: »

People don't earn heaven, or grace, or salvation. It's God's gift to those who believe in Him.

We are all sinners, we have all fallen short, therefore it is impossible that we are saved by our own goodness, but rather the goodness of Jesus Christ.

That sounds like God-Fearing Christianity almost. Believe in Jesus or burn in hell sorta way. But then that would mean you believed in Hell first and Jesus second. And thats where I draw confusion.

PDN · 08-11-2009 06:40AM

So, which bit of "Christian Responses Only" is so hard to understand?

Morbert · 08-11-2009 12:58PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hell is a God awful existence and anyone wishing to go there must be mad. I don't think that the people who will end up there are people who actually want to be there. They are just people who bet on the wrong horse in life, they trusted in a doctrine that was false i.e. "God doesn't really exist". They trusted the lie that God doesn't really exist and lived for themselves instead of trusting in God.

But I am not saying people would want to be there. I am saying the threat of Hell would not convince people that Christianity is real. The problem is not one of rebellion or mistrust in God, but one of knowledge of God's very existence. Remember that, in the eyes of those not yet converted, threats of hell would come from the mouths of men first.

I'll use one of my contrived analogies. Imagine that you wanted to buy a car, and approached two salesmen. Salesman A tells you that his car has all the mod cons, and is a pleasure to drive. Salesman B tells you that if you don't buy his car then you will burn to death in the fiery wreckage of a crash. Salesman B might be telling you the honest truth, but since you have no prior knowledge, it sounds just like a tasteless sales pitch.

A priest or pastor might have good intentions when warning people about eternal torture. But you know what they say about roads paved with good intentions.

So, which bit of "Christian Responses Only" is so hard to understand?

For this thread, I have assumed the central tenets of Christianity are true, and haven't put forward any un-Christian concept of hell. I have always considered Christian universalism to be the most consistent theology on hell, so I'm arguing in its favour.

philologos · 08-11-2009 01:10PM

Overheal wrote: »

That sounds like God-Fearing Christianity almost. Believe in Jesus or burn in hell sorta way. But then that would mean you believed in Hell first and Jesus second. And thats where I draw confusion.

This is only valid if you think that Jesus was only here for a single purpose.

chozometroid · 08-11-2009 02:17PM

Morbert wrote: »

But I am not saying people would want to be there. I am saying the threat of Hell would not convince people that Christianity is real. The problem is not one of rebellion or mistrust in God, but one of knowledge of God's very existence. Remember that, in the eyes of those not yet converted, threats of hell would come from the mouths of men first.

I'll use one of my contrived analogies. Imagine that you wanted to buy a car, and approached two salesmen. Salesman A tells you that his car has all the mod cons, and is a pleasure to drive. Salesman B tells you that if you don't buy his car then you will burn to death in the fiery wreckage of a crash. Salesman B might be telling you the honest truth, but since you have no prior knowledge, it sounds just like a tasteless sales pitch.

A priest or pastor might have good intentions when warning people about eternal torture. But you know what they say about roads paved with good intentions.

For this thread, I have assumed the central tenets of Christianity are true, and haven't put forward any un-Christian concept of hell. I have always considered Christian universalism to be the most consistent theology on hell, so I'm arguing in its favour.

For the record, I don't believe hell is an everlasting firey torture. I believe hell is when the wicked are burned and consumed.

Whatever hell is, here is my reply....

Hell is not offered as some threat to get people to worship God or accept Christianity. I see it presented in the Bible merely as a statement of fact. You can have eternal life with God, or you can perish. Obviously the "threat of hell" is not very effective because people in the Bible turned away from God regardless. It's always about what you put first in your life: you, or your Creator.

To put a different spin on your salesman analogy:

Salesman A: Buy this car, no, trade for this car, because it's reliable and only has the features you need. It's not flashy, but has the power to get you to your destination.

Salesman B: Buy this car, no, trade for this car, because the one you have now only looks good on the outside. It has many features you don't need, and because its main components are lacking in quality, it will inevitably break down on the highway, preventing you from ever reaching your destination. There are no sidewalks, so walking is not an option.

Salesman B is telling you the truth, but if you are stubborn and think your flashy car that has all the things that make you popular with the neighbors will get you to your destination, then you will have to face the consequences of such a decision.

PDN · 08-11-2009 02:56PM

The concept of hell appears to be used in the New Testament as a motivation for believers, rather than a threat to unbelievers.

This is how I commonly hear it used in evangelical churches. It's not a case of scaring people into getting saved, but rather saying to believers, "Look, if you really believe that this where people are going then what are you doing to help them get saved?"

lmaopml · 08-11-2009 05:47PM

I agree that the bible is just stating a simple fact. It's not meant to be 'fear' motivating.....but moreso motivates people who live in Christ to help others find their way. St. Paul tells us in the bible that everybody is given "a measure of Grace"....the way I understand this, is that everybody has already been given what is required to find their 'faith' and seek God...It's the voice within.

It's ignoring this 'measure of Grace' which is within each of us over and over in life that is the 'rejection' of God....

Personal Ramble coming on....lol.....
I think sometimes the word 'God' can carry a lot of baggage for people...and they see God as some kind of a judge in the sky who is giving them a multiple choice exam on earth that is mind blowing in it's complexity.....and it doesn't 'sit' right with them...and they reject their inner voice and let the world get in the way, and live in the 'noise' of life...... If they replace the word 'God' with 'beauty' ( which to me is more than just an abstract concept, but the inspirational language of God, and one of the signs we can recognise with our hearts, it's a huge gift to recognise 'beauty' which is truth, goodness, in balance, what is right etc. ) - which is what I remember doing on my own spiritual journey, it opens up a deeper understanding, to love God, is to love beauty, truth, justice, Joy, Mercy and of course love itself. It is just a 'truth', a spiritual truth, that by rejecting God, we seperate ourselves from him....and like any loving Father he let's us know this.
end of personal ramble:

Also, and with respect, from a Catholic perspective, this is what we believe about those who through no fault of their own have never heard of the Gospels...

(From the Catechism of the Catholic Church p,847) Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

God is the final judge I suppose

Purgatory, Hell and Heaven. [Christian Responses Only]

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