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The Debate Continues....

  • 04-11-2009 12:12am
    #1
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭


    Continuing a debate from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62834241#post62834241
    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    You'd be surprised. Plenty of great games on it if you look hard enough. Also kiddie graphics don't mean it's a kiddie game, look at de blob and mario galaxy.
    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    There are tons of games for the grown up gamer, Resi 4, House of the Dead Overkill/2+3, No More Heroes, Metroid Trilogy, loads more too.
    Mario Galaxy is perfection, Pikmin 1 and 2 are fantastic, MarioKart is wonderful.
    Medal Of Honor Heroes 2 is very very good too, as is COD3.
    rcdk1 wrote: »
    OT - Good Wii games: Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3..... Tiger Woods maybe (haven't played it)? Then you're into kids games, virtual console and party games. The other games mentioned pale in comparison to their PS3 and xbox counterparts.

    OP - ignore the above debate, it's a good console for kids. You definitely need extra controllers though.
    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Not the most taught out debate? I'm right therefore you're wrong.

    Right here's why I think games on the Wii are not for serious gamers:
    First the games I mentioned: Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 10. All great games but all parts of existing franchises. And iirc RE4 is a port from the gamecube. Nothing wrong with that but nothing original either.

    De Blob: to be honest, i've never heard of it but it got mediocre ratings on IGN (8.4/10), Gamespot (8.0/10) and one site Total Video Games even gave it 6/10.

    House of the Dead, Overkill: Played it, no depth. IGN (8.0/10), Gamespot (8.0/10) and (most of) the reader reviews on GameFAQS (average 7.7/10) agree.

    Haven't played House of the Dead 2+3 but again it got abysmal reviews: 6.0/10 from Gamespot, 6.0/10 from IGN and an average of 7.1/10 from GameFAQs readers.

    No More Heros: Actually got reasonable reviews (e.g. 8.9/10 on IGN) but I found it repetitive. You're given an open world environment but no reason to explore. I sold it back to Game the same week.

    Metroid Prime Trilogy: As I say MP3 is great and the 1&2 are good great but are ports from the Gamecube.

    Pikmin 1&2: yet more Gamecube ports! e.g. IGN gives it 8.0/10.

    MarioKart admittedly is great fun (IGN gives it 8.9/10) but needs to be played multiplayer to maximize it. I would put it in the "good party game" category.

    Medal of Honour Heros 2: I played it. I enjoyed it. But "very very good"? I think not. Main issue was with poor enemy AI. Gamespot gave it 8.0/10 and IGN gave it 8.4/10.

    CoD3: Gamespot: 7.2/10 and IGN: 7.7/10. Enough said.

    I did come across DJ Hero which got good ratings (9.0/10 on IGN) if you're into music.

    So..... Some good games but mostly ports and sequels. The remainder: kids games, virtual console games and party games. I really don't see how you could say it's a console for serious/hardcore gamers.


Comments

  • #2
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,332 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    8.4 is mediocre :confused:

    Also: get your hands on Zack and Wiki, which is a big ol' disc of wonderful (87 on metacritics if you really care about critics that much).


  • #3
    Irish Halo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭Irish Halo


    First off you are obviously are not interested in the games the Wii offers but that doesn't mean that it is only for kids.

    However you now need to define "hardcore" and "serious". What makes a game appeal to these types of gamers? Does it have to be "adult"? i.e violent or have adolescent depictions of sex and/or women (please don't pretend they are anything other than this). Maybe it needs to be long and involving with an immense amount of time needed to complete it to 100%?

    OK the Wii doesn't do "adult" much (Mad World, No More Heroes being exceptions) but not a great loss IMO. Most modern games can be run through relatively quickly to see an ending on any console. Wii games like Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess to get a 100% completion takes fecking ages. To get top marks in even something like Boom Blox or Mario Kart is also not easily done.
    All great games but all parts of existing franchises ... Some good games but mostly ports and sequels
    :confused: OK the playstation and Xbox do this as well, a LOT, there have been 13 COD games. 15 GTA games (across all platforms and including expansions). The first FIFA was in 1993 and they have had more or less 1 a year since then.

    Just because it isn't a sequel doesn't mean it is original. Look at the number of 3rd person shooters on these "next/new generation" consoles or something like Nathan Drake which is basically Tomb Raider or the different internal genres of racing games which have numerous series within them.

    For me games that have actual originality and involving "stop and think" moments like Zack & Wiki, Sam & Max, Monkey Island, Another Code, Super Paper Mario, Twilight Princess etc are more rewarding and "hardcore".


  • #4
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,819 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    The Wii is a fairly weak console that never really hit its stride in terms of quality games because the monster success of the console led third party gamers to produce either lazy conversions of existing titles with waggle controls or generic "me-too" casual party games. Even Nintendo have got lazy (Animal Crossing Wii was basically a DS game whilst every major title this year - Mario & Sonic, NSMB, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Zelda DS and Mario & Luigi DS were ALL sequels). I say that as a longtime Nintendo fan. Third party developers never really stepped up to the plate and those that did, like EA (with proper implementation of the remotes strengths for it's sports titles and Dead:Space Extraction) and SEGA (Madworld) ended up with titles that got rave reviews but poor sales, games probably that will always sell better on the PS3/Xbox's audiences.

    Hardcore gamers have deserted the console and will only return for 1st party titles like the new Zelda/Metroid and wishlist titles (New Pilotwings, Pikmin etc) whilst Nintendo's surprisingly low figures posted last week show that the bubble has burst for casuals too - there's only so many peripherals they can fit in the house at this stage. The Wii HD can't come soon enough because the Wii itself has stalled majorly right now and there's not so much on the horizon to correct that, especially once casuals get a look at Natal next Christmas


  • #5
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    A couple of unstructured and unsupported points :

    There are no "hardcore" games. Only hardcore players. However it's fair to say that through the accomplishments systems on the PS3 and Xbox they reward so-called "hardcore" behaviour.

    If you see the lack of depth in House of the Dead : Overkill as a problem, you've missed the point.

    In terms of originality and sequels, look at PES 2008 on the Wii. Granted, it's an exception rather than the rule but more than any other game (in my humble opinion) it showed what the platform was capable of doing with any franchise if only you'd play to the consoles strengths.


  • #6
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    May I add A Boy and his Blob to the list of excellent Wii games and quite possibly the most gorgeous looking game of this generation alongside another Wii exclusive Muramasa: Demon Sword.

    There's no debate here, the Wii has excellent games. If all you want to do is play CoD4 and Fifa then you won't want a Wii and you won't bother taking a chance on niche but no less excellent games like zack and wiki, muramasa, de Blob, etc.

    Funnily enough if you dismiss the Wii you are also missing out on PES for the Wii, by far the best soccer game out at the moment.

    And when was 8.4 a mediocre score?

    Also dismissing games as kids games is just ignorance. You should never dismiss a game for how it looks but for how it plays. Out of all the amazing games that came out in 2007, super mario galaxy was by far my favourite. Not bad for a 'kids' game.

    I'm not saying it's better than a 360 or PS3 but I'd rather have the Wii as a second console and it does get played every so often when a quality game comes out.
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  • #7
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    8.4 is mediocre when I'm spending my own hard earned cash. On other systems you need never buy anything under 9.0/10. While I accept people's distrust of critics, there's a similar argument for basing buying decisions on reviews: games are too expensive to be making impulse buys.

    Zack and Wiki: haven't played it but heard it's good.

    Hardcore/serious: In a game I'd define it as one with enough depth to keep me playing for 4 hours straight. The game itself doesn't necessarily have to be long. And in a gamer? An addict:D Also not a casual gamer. The comments on violence/sex missed the mark. An analogy in films would be a Pixar animated film versus Barney the Dinosaur, both "kids" films but a Pixar film is enjoyable on a multitude of levels.

    The point on sequels is fair enough but it still remains that any number of Wii games are ports from the Gamecube, a previous generation system.

    Banjo: Your point on me missing the point has missed my original point about HotD. It's a casual game, therefore it doesn't promote the Wii as a console for serious gamers. The problem is that 3rd party developers aren't playing to the console's strengths.

    A Boy and his Blob: For shame Retr0gamer, you of all people should know that style and graphics (while nice to have) are secondary to gameplay. As for Muramasa: Demon Sword, actually looks pretty good, might give it a try.

    I do have CoD4 but I also have the likes of Valkyria Chronicles, Folklore and Little Big Planet.

    Retr0gamer: "super mario galaxy was by far my favourite. Not bad for a 'kids' game.".......... did you read my first post?


  • #8
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    You are missing out on de Blob if you won't buy it because it got 8.4 average. It's one of the best games on the wii and it's a better nintendo game than the stuff nintendo is brinign out at the moment despite it coming from THQ. I've played games on 360 and PS3 that got a similar average review score that I enjoyed a whole lot less than de Blob.
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  • #9
    niallon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭niallon


    I was an avid Nintendo follower all my life, NES, SNES, N64 Gameboy, Gameboy Colour and DS. I gave up at Gamecube mainly because I wanted a DVD player. But two years ago I returned to consoles with the Wii and it now gathers dust beside my PS3 and 360. Why?

    I do believe there are great titles and their remains great potential for the Wii but the problem is that Nintendo are too smug and happy keeping their figures up with people buying the Wii as babysitter for their kids. When myself and my brother were younger we had the pleasure of playing all the Mario Bros titles on the NES, the Zelda titles etc. Kids now have the dubious honour of rating "Funfair Party" and the like and the Imagine series as their childhood games. Third party titles I know but still, the more of these games on the market, the more consoles purchased to play them. I've played all the Wii and DS titles that interest me now, excluding Mario Galaxy 2 the Wii no longer holds any appeal for me. how could they let the console out on the market this long without giving us a proper Zelda title, the Zelda series being one of the main reasons the Nintendo 64 was the landmark console it was?

    It's just a pity really.


  • #10
    Dozen Wicked Words
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Dozen Wicked Words


    niallon wrote: »
    I was an avid Nintendo follower all my life, NES, SNES, N64 Gameboy, Gameboy Colour and DS. I gave up at Gamecube mainly because I wanted a DVD player.

    Tsk tsk. Not overly avid if the sparkle of a DVD put you off the path of right (was going to say you missed out on a lot, but Nintendo have made the Wii cube friendly and updates with new controls, they even think of those who jumped ship). Could you not have got a 'cube and kept going with crappy video, or even better stumped up for a DVD player rather than the decidedly average player offered with "another" console?

    My only gripe with Nintendo are their spiralling decline into marketing ONLY aimed at non-core gamers. Ant and Feckin Dec etc. It's obviously a successful way of selling though otherwise Microsofts XBOX campaign last year wouldn't have featured so many people with no backs of heads playing singing games, watching films (though not on the defunct HDDVD) and playing lego batman.

    Anyway, this is a pointless thread and surely deserves to live in the "which is better, mine or yours thread", or whatever its called. Glorified P**sing contest based on people trawling through metacritic et al. debating games they have never played.


  • #11
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    The PS2 was by far the worst DVD player on the market. I wouldn't have even considered watching a DVD on it, the picture quality was appalling.
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  • #12
    niallon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭niallon


    dooferoaks wrote: »
    Tsk tsk. Not overly avid if the sparkle of a DVD put you off the path of right (was going to say you missed out on a lot, but Nintendo have made the Wii cube friendly and updates with new controls, they even think of those who jumped ship). Could you not have got a 'cube and kept going with crappy video, or even better stumped up for a DVD player rather than the decidedly average player offered with "another" console?

    Avid doesn't trump being broke. The long and short of it is I've subsequently played the Gamecube and all I could see was games that "could've been worse", nothing as good as is generally claimed by most


  • #13
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    niallon wrote: »
    Avid doesn't trump being broke. The long and short of it is I've subsequently played the Gamecube and all I could see was games that "could've been worse", nothing as good as is generally claimed by most

    Plenty of excellent games on the Gamecube, I can't see how you can argue against that.
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  • #14
    CiDeRmAn
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,729 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Yet another person that goes and makes Edge magazines point about review scores, People are idiots who think that 7/10 represents "average".
    5/10 is average by it's very definition.
    10/10 is a game that is so good it demands that you buy the hardware just to play it.
    9/10 is a game that is damn near perfect, a future classic and you really really should have it.
    8/10 is a game that is merely very good, so, as a gamer it is really your mission to at least give it a go.
    7/10 IS NOT AVERAGE! It represents a game, a good game with some flaws but, if you are a fan of the genre, this is one for you to consider.

    So, with this in mind, what on earth is wrong with any of the games mentioned?
    De Blob is very impressive, if you haven't played it you really should, quite original, the only similar game was the marvellous Wizball on the C64 and Speccy back in the day, a lovely tactile game.
    As for the few GC remakes, so what? If the new control method adds to the experience and given that most Wii owners out there never owned the GC then these games are brand new.

    Also, regarding the idea of remaking an existing game on new hardware, sure haven't the alleged "gamers consoles" been doing that for ages?
    I mean, with the COD titles being remade for the consoles from the PC, same with the BattleField titles, same with FarCry and Command and Conquer, and yet there are those that trumpet those titles as reasons to own a 360 or PS3.

    Also we have games on 360 being remade for the PS3, Katamari Forever popping up on the PS3, with tweaks to suit the new hardware.
    Same with Star Ocean, going from 360 to PS3, also Super Monkey Ball made the jump from the GC to the PS2.
    My point is cross pollination from one console to another is very common amongst everyone in the market.

    And as for critising the use of existing IP in new titles and accusing them of being unoriginal, well, barking up the wrong tree there, Super Mario Galaxy takes the familiar and does so many new things with them that it is beyond counting, and there are few if any games on any console that can claim to be as constantly able to bring a smile to your face as that game.
    As for the use of sequels as somehow making a console a lesser hardcore gamers consoles, you are really talking nonsense.
    The PS3/360 and PC are all making much about the biggest single player/multi player game launch of the year, the game that could well be the biggest seller of the decade, and that is Modern Warfare 2, not only the sequel to an existing game, but the 6th game in the console series, not to mention the other iterations on the PS2 and so on.

    So many games released across the various gaming platforms are ultimately new versions of existing games, either as a continuing series or as part of a particular genre, and only rarely are we treated to a game that furthers either.
    So for every new IP like Wet or Mirrors Edge that fails to set the world on fire we get the occasional Fallout 3 or Metroid Prime Corruption.

    So, don't please get your knickers in a twist about the Wii not being a "gamers" machine.
    Of course it is, it all depends on which games you choose to play on it.
    I mean you could own a 360 and have Lips and Scene-It, or a PS3 with EyePet and Buzz.

    I'm a gamer and wouldn't do without my Wii, I have a wide selection of games for it and there are those I love and play often and there are that I don't, same goes for other machines.

    There is no debate, just someone trying to create a storm in a teacup, deary deary me...


  • #15
    niallon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭niallon


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Plenty of excellent games on the Gamecube, I can't see how you can argue against that.

    Personally I just thought Nintendo started their current trend of lazily recycling themselves with the Gamecube. I don't have anything particular against it, maybe it's more so that Nintendo just reached a dizzying excellence with the N64 that I feel they haven't come close to since.


  • #16
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    niallon wrote: »
    Personally I just thought Nintendo started their current trend of lazily recycling themselves with the Gamecube. I don't have anything particular against it, maybe it's more so that Nintendo just reached a dizzying excellence with the N64 that I feel they haven't come close to since.

    Play some of the 'classic' N64 games now. Most of them have aged dreadfully with only a handful being still good to play.
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  • #17
    CiDeRmAn
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,729 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Wasn't it Rare that reached a level of dizzying excellence?
    Although Nintendo did do some really great stuff on the N64.
    I patiently await the day that Pilotwings 64 arrives on Wiiware, that and Blastcorps, I love those.

    That said, and I know to some it would be sacrilege, what about a small overhaul of the N64 titles, make the framerate a little smoother, the textures a little better, any bad problems with controls or gameplay ironed out?
    They could do it similar to the New Play Control series, except with N64 games, the two above would be great, not to mention Jet Force Gemini.



    Woo Hoo!
    3000th post!
    Happy days!

    What the feck am I doing with my life?


  • #18
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Rare definitely didn't reach a dizzying level of excellence. Go back and play the N64 games now. Rares games are all but unplayable with the exceptions of Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corp while Nintendos games are still as amazing now to play as back then. A lot of Rares stuff was trying to emulate what nintendo had done before with their 3D platformers being poor imitations of Mario 64 and diddy kong racing a poor imitation of mario kart.
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  • #19
    sock puppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Rare definitely didn't reach a dizzying level of excellence. Go back and play the N64 games now. Rares games are all but unplayable with the exceptions of Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corp while Nintendos games are still as amazing now to play as back then. A lot of Rares stuff was trying to emulate what nintendo had done before with their 3D platformers being poor imitations of Mario 64 and diddy kong racing a poor imitation of mario kart.

    I think you're being a little harsh there. I thought Banjo Kazooie and its sequel were superb games and imo they've aged better than Mario 64.


  • #20
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Well I've played both very recently and can safely say that Mario 64 is still a brilliant game and far superior to Banjo Kazooie. Banjo Kazooie is alright but later levels have poor level design and the framerate is atrocious. Banjo Tooie is worse than Kazooie.
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  • #21
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    niallon wrote: »
    Personally I just thought Nintendo started their current trend of lazily recycling themselves with the Gamecube. I don't have anything particular against it, maybe it's more so that Nintendo just reached a dizzying excellence with the N64 that I feel they haven't come close to since.

    For me it will always be the SNES that was the pinnacle of Nintendo home consoles. Things went slowly down after that,except their handhelds. Mario Bros Wii should be worth getting. I'm getting sick of 3D.


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  • #22
    NunianVonFuch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭NunianVonFuch


    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    Wasn't it Rare that reached a level of dizzying excellence?

    Yep. Perfect Dark, Goldeneye and Donkey Kong 64 are some of my favourite games ever made. DK hasn't aged too well, but the DK rap has! :D


  • #23
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    You should play Goldeneye and Perfect Dark now. They're pretty decrepit and have aged terribly.
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  • #24
    NunianVonFuch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭NunianVonFuch


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    You should play Goldeneye and Perfect Dark now. They're pretty decrepit and have aged terribly.

    I have. I disagree and still love them to bits. Frame rate is the only bad point but if you play them on PC thats softened up a bit, plus the graphics look better too. Enemy Rockets - Facility - 00 Agent - Knives only. One to separate the men from the boys! :D Perfect Dark will be on XBLA soon so we can all get a fresh perspective on it again when that's released!


  • #25
    CiDeRmAn
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,729 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    I heart Diddy Kong Racing and Conkers Bad Fur Day


  • #26
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,964 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Hmm, I never liked diddy kong racing and as for conkers, take out the juvenile humour that wasn't really that funny and you've got an average game with dreadful swimming sections.
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  • #27
    NunianVonFuch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭NunianVonFuch


    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    I heart Diddy Kong Racing and Conkers Bad Fur Day

    Not a big diddy fan but even so I did love Conker! ;) Humour was good and bad but the general piss-take tone of the game kept it entertaining. Especially when compared to Banjo and the way (for me) that game's entertainment value tapers off towards the end as it's far too repetitive.


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