irish scrum

outwest · 13-12-2009 2:15am #1

Is hayes the problem? Once again we get murdered at scrum time. The press kinda blamed healy, but i taught it was hayes side that went back 1st. healy scruming seems to be good for leinster. while hayes as had a number of bad scruming games.

Does hayes need more gametime? He's been playing for a month now.

Malmedicine · 13-12-2009 5:05pm

Firstly learn how to write semi-decent english. Secondly punctuate. Thirdly Healy from my point of view got screwed in the scrum but if the scrum was refereed properly, he would have had a good few penalties due to the S.A props illegal binding, so hard to say.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2009 5:51pm

Healy is absolutely fine when scrummaging for Leinster, but has a better scrummaging tight 5 in general so its hard to make comparisons. I imagine he was certainly partly at fault, but to my massively untrained eye it seemed like most of the trouble was on Hayes's side. His performances for Munster seem to bear that out.

danthefan · 13-12-2009 5:58pm

I wouldn't be an expert on the front row by any means but the fact Healy is scrummaging very well for Leinster but not for Ireland while Hayes is struggling for both Munster and Ireland says something.

I don't think you can put it down to one player anyway, the scrum is a unit.

jdivision · 13-12-2009 6:44pm

After the SA game, O'Connell said it was the fault of the second rows. That may have been political though cos I thought both props got schooled

Chucky the tree · 13-12-2009 6:58pm

Didn't see the SA match, but anyone with eyes could see Healey was really struggling against austrailia.

danthefan · 13-12-2009 7:01pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Didn't see the SA match, but anyone with eyes could see Healey was really struggling against austrailia.

So was Hayes.

Chucky the tree · 13-12-2009 7:13pm

danthefan wrote: »

So was Hayes.

First match in 5 weeks, Hayes has already proven it at international level while Healey hasn't. Not worried about Hayes at all, hopefully Healy can make the step up.

danthefan · 13-12-2009 7:15pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

First match in 5 weeks, Hayes has already proven it at international level while Healey hasn't. Not worried about Hayes at all, hopefully Healy can make the step up.

You're not worried about a 36 year old who hasn't really played at all well yet this season? I am.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2009 7:34pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

First match in 5 weeks, Hayes has already proven it at international level while Healey hasn't. Not worried about Hayes at all, hopefully Healy can make the step up.

That's absurd logic. Hayes has been struggling all season, for Ireland and Munster, and is 36 with a lot of miles on the clock. Hayes has proven it at international level and I've a lot of respect for him, but he's been struggling all season and could easily be on the decline. Players inevitably reach a point where they start performing poorly.

Chucky the tree · 13-12-2009 7:48pm

I don't think he was to disappointing at the start of the season. I'd much rather lose Healy to an injury for the 6nations then hayes if we want to win it.

ilovelamp2000 · 13-12-2009 7:52pm

Hayes has never been a particularly good scrummager, it's his only weakness.

Stev_o · 13-12-2009 7:58pm

There's an Irish prop at Harlequins at the moment who us pushing props around in the scrum for fun maybe a province should sign him.....wait this seems familiar.

Anyway John Andress is getting game time with Quins at the moment and looking at his performance in the scrum he looks more then capable of holding his own aswell as taking it a opposition pack.

danthefan · 13-12-2009 8:19pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I don't think he was to disappointing at the start of the season. I'd much rather lose Healy to an injury for the 6nations then hayes if we want to win it.

Dunno what games you've been watching tbh but he's been nowhere near his past standard.

need assistance · 13-12-2009 10:26pm

With the six nations in mind I would be very worried about the Irish scrum, the autumn internationals showed us getting pushed backwards at a rate of knots. If South Africa or even Australia had taken advantage more it could have proved very costly. Interesting to look at the provincial games at the weekend, the munster scrum struggled while the ulster and leinster scrum held their own.

The media have laid the blame at Healy but to my eyes, although it is impossible to know without actually being in the scrum, I thought Hayes was the weak link.

Unfortunately there doesn't look like anyone is in a position to replace him. Can't see him making it to the world cup though

thomond2006 · 13-12-2009 10:48pm

The tighthead issue is a big problem.

Mike Ross has his fans and his critics, the fact is he is not first choice tighthead prop at Leinster and that will hamper his development. Stan Wright is also fighting for a TH berth.

Tom Court can play both sides, but will not play TH ahead of BJ Botha at Ulster and so will remain a LH for province and country.

Could any Connacht fans here shed light on Jamie Hagan's performances? Haven't seen a Connacht match this season so I've no idea how he is doing. I think I'm correct to assume that he is first choice?

On another note, Stephen Archer of Munster looked good against Ulster in October.

Any talented THs in the Leinster Academy?

danthefan · 13-12-2009 10:57pm

There are a couple of props in the Leinster academy but none that would be playing international rugby any time soon.

13-12-2009 11:08pm

I remember when that happened I looked over the video numerous times but couldnt post on here

Hayes gets man shamed by Robinson,allowing Healy no chance against Alexander.Healy has dealt with enough props like Castro and white for us to know he is a solid scrummager.
The fact he minced Hayes the last 2 times aswell,proves this.

Hayes is too old,has never been a good scrummager and we are absolutely screwed unless Kidney tries someone new.
His fall from grace whether to do with lack of game time or age has been huge.

For all account he seems a top bloke and hes likeable but I think he gets an easy ride from the Irish Public and Media.
"oh but his lineout lifting is class"
Well a prop needs to do more than lift in the lineout.

Maybe Kidney should ask for a front row of Healy,Jackman and Ross to scrum against Hayes,flannery and Horan the next time the teams play each other
It would give him answers.

chupacabra · 14-12-2009 12:49am

thomond2006 wrote: »

The tighthead issue is a big problem.

Mike Ross has his fans and his critics, the fact is he is not first choice tighthead prop at Leinster and that will hamper his development. Stan Wright is also fighting for a TH berth.

Tom Court can play both sides, but will not play TH ahead of BJ Botha at Ulster and so will remain a LH for province and country.

Could any Connacht fans here shed light on Jamie Hagan's performances? Haven't seen a Connacht match this season so I've no idea how he is doing. I think I'm correct to assume that he is first choice?

On another note, Stephen Archer of Munster looked good against Ulster in October.

Any talented THs in the Leinster Academy?

Hagan has been average. But he is only 22 and will undoubtedly get better with age and experience. Jack McGrath is apparently our best prospect in any of the academies at the moment.. i beg to differ. His scrummaging is woeful, even for an U20 player and he played most if not all of his rugby for Mary's at Loosehead. Only switching to tighthead recently. Again he is a young lad and its impossible to tell if he will be a future international but it seems he is being touted as a future international TH on his performances in the loose... which is odd.

14-12-2009 12:59am

chupacabra wrote: »

Hagan has been average. But he is only 22 and will undoubtedly get better with age and experience. Jack McGrath is apparently our best prospect in any of the academies at the moment.. i beg to differ. His scrummaging is woeful, even for an U20 player and he played most if not all of his rugby for Mary's at Loosehead. Only switching to tighthead recently. Again he is a young lad and its impossible to tell if he will be a future international but it seems he is being touted as a future international TH on his performances in the loose... which is odd.

Very true,I havent seen much of McGrath but he is a huge guy judging by his stats,5'11 and over 120 kg.
The thing about TH is that they need brute strength and he may not have it and as you say he just switched from TH and may not mature for years.

Court is very average,Buckley I think is great except he cant scrummage.

Ross is imo the best prop we have,he may not have the mobility of Buckey or the lineout lifting of Hayes but he can scrummage and he is improving in the loose.

Whther he is first choice for Leinster or not is irrelevant,if he can scrummage he should be in the team cause Hayes offers nothing in the loose and cant scrummage.

Eddie Jones was asked on ruggamatrix if Ireland could win the wc,his answer was "not with Hayes at TH",Says it all.

A positive note we do have in Ireland is that Horan was immence last year and with him and healy we have some serious quality at LH and now we are set in that position,so hopefully he gets back asap.

DonkeyPokerTour · 14-12-2009 4:59am

Peter Nervous Undershirt wrote: »

Maybe Kidney should ask for a front row of Healy,Jackman and Ross to scrum against Hayes,flannery and Horan the next time the teams play each other
It would give him answers.

Why would he want to see Jackman??? The guy cannot throw, like at all. Fogerty has been starting for Leinster all season. Jackman even played against the Dragons so clearly Cheka see's Fogerty as his starting No.2.

Also the next time they play will be right around Christmas, Horan will not be back from his injury so mute point.

danthefan · 14-12-2009 8:15am

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

Why would he want to see Jackman??? The guy cannot throw, like at all. Fogerty has been starting for Leinster all season. Jackman even played against the Dragons so clearly Cheka see's Fogerty as his starting No.2.

Also the next time they play will be right around Christmas, Horan will not be back from his injury so mute point.

No it won't, it'll be April.

Webbs · 14-12-2009 9:35am

Healy gets away with poor scrummaging technique for Leinster as they are a solid well drilled pack. The standard of scrummaging at ML level and even HC (with a few exceptions) is completely different to international level where any chink in the scrum armour is targeted by opposition packs.
Watch Healy at scrum time and look at his back, it is not straight at engagement which means any push coming from him or his second rows is not directed at his opposite number, he will be guilty of collapsing scrums on a lot of occasions with that technique.
Hayes since he has come back has not been as streetwise for some reason or other, he overcomes his scrummaging weakness by driving in on the opp hooker and not getting pinged for it over the years. He certainly is starting to look his age and next year must surely be he his last in an Irish shirt regardless of who is or isnt available.

danthefan · 14-12-2009 9:44am

Webbs wrote: »

Healy gets away with poor scrummaging technique for Leinster as they are a solid well drilled pack. The standard of scrummaging at ML level and even HC (with a few exceptions) is completely different to international level where any chink in the scrum armour is targeted by opposition packs.

How does he (and Leinster) do so well against Munster in the scrum then, considering they've an all international pack?

Webbs · 14-12-2009 12:36pm

danthefan wrote: »

How does he (and Leinster) do so well against Munster in the scrum then, considering they've an all international pack?

Because the Munster pack is all Irish and that is a pack that is not strong in scrummaging, he is also packing against Hayes (who we all agree is not a good scrummager), take what the likes of Leicester did to Munster a couple of years ago with the same Munster pack?

Now if he (Healy) was able to do it against the likes of Castrogiovanni and his pack then fair enough. I have yet to see Healy come up against a class TH and not have a real struggle

Eoin · 14-12-2009 12:59pm

Webbs wrote: »

Now if he (Healy) was able to do it against the likes of Castrogiovanni and his pack then fair enough. I have yet to see Healy come up against a class TH and not have a real struggle

Did he not hold his own against Castrogiovanni in the HEC final last season?

Ciaran-Irl · 14-12-2009 1:17pm

Malmedicine wrote: »

Firstly learn how to write semi-decent english. Secondly punctuate. Thirdly Healy from my point of view got screwed in the scrum but if the scrum was refereed properly, he would have had a good few penalties due to the S.A props illegal binding, so hard to say.

Surely it should be, "Firstly, learn how to write semi-decent english. Secondly, punctuate. Thirdly, from my point of view Healy got screwed in the scrum, but if the scrum was refereed properly, he would have had a good few penalties due to the S.A props illegal binding, though hard to say."

But most of all, no need to be rude, eh?

Otacon · 14-12-2009 1:19pm

Webbs wrote: »

Now if he (Healy) was able to do it against the likes of Castrogiovanni and his pack then fair enough. I have yet to see Healy come up against a class TH and not have a real struggle

eoin wrote: »

Did he not hold his own against Castrogiovanni in the HEC final last season?

That's what he said. Read it again.

Podge_irl · 14-12-2009 1:50pm

Otacon wrote: »

That's what he said. Read it again.

Its ambiguous the way its written. Especially considering he then says he's never seen Healy come up against a top class TH and not struggle, unless he doesn't count Castro as a top class tighthead. Or he meant he just didn't see the HEC final I guess.

Webbs · 14-12-2009 2:44pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its ambiguous the way its written. Especially considering he then says he's never seen Healy come up against a top class TH and not struggle, unless he doesn't count Castro as a top class tighthead. Or he meant he just didn't see the HEC final I guess.

I dont think Healy at scrum time did do that well in the final, he was pretty much constantly under pressure, however I thought the leinster pack collectively were excellent that day so nullified his shortcomings

Otacon · 14-12-2009 2:47pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its ambiguous the way its written. Especially considering he then says he's never seen Healy come up against a top class TH and not struggle, unless he doesn't count Castro as a top class tighthead. Or he meant he just didn't see the HEC final I guess.

Webbs wrote: »

I dont think Healy at scrum time did do that well in the final, he was pretty much constantly under pressure, however I thought the leinster pack collectively were excellent that day so nullified his shortcomings

Guess I was wrong!? And I disagree with Webbs for the record.

little173 · 14-12-2009 3:48pm

The Problem with debating the scrum and a prop's ability to scrum is that a lot of the time its a collective effort. I remember having discussions with Paul Wallace about the Lions team and the Irish pack and him saying that generally unless your loosehead comes up against a beast which is rare, like a Castro or Hayman, it is a collective effort. He was arguing that Rory Best is crucial to the scrummaging of the Ireland pack in that it gives solidity from the side allowing pressure to be relieved.

Likewise, he also argued that the Lions selection of Vickery was not necessarily the wrong one in the first test more that Alun Wynn-Jones was too lightweight behind and Mears far too small to the side so all the pressure was being taken by Vickery, and the scrum got smashed. With Shaw and Rees there it wasnt so much of an issue, albeit he's isnt the best scrummager.

Ciaran-Irl · 14-12-2009 5:26pm

little173 wrote: »

The Problem with debating the scrum and a prop's ability to scrum is that a lot of the time its a collective effort. I remember having discussions with Paul Wallace about the Lions team and the Irish pack and him saying that generally unless your loosehead comes up against a beast which is rare, like a Castro or Hayman, it is a collective effort. He was arguing that Rory Best is crucial to the scrummaging of the Ireland pack in that it gives solidity from the side allowing pressure to be relieved.

Likewise, he also argued that the Lions selection of Vickery was not necessarily the wrong one in the first test more that Alun Wynn-Jones was too lightweight behind and Mears far too small to the side so all the pressure was being taken by Vickery, and the scrum got smashed. With Shaw and Rees there it wasnt so much of an issue, albeit he's isnt the best scrummager.

Interesting. Agreed about Rory Best especially. Still think it was madness not to call him up for the Lions. Unquestionably better than any of Ford, Mears or Rees.

Webbs · 14-12-2009 6:05pm

little173 wrote: »

The Problem with debating the scrum and a prop's ability to scrum is that a lot of the time its a collective effort. I remember having discussions with Paul Wallace about the Lions team and the Irish pack and him saying that generally unless your loosehead comes up against a beast which is rare, like a Castro or Hayman, it is a collective effort. He was arguing that Rory Best is crucial to the scrummaging of the Ireland pack in that it gives solidity from the side allowing pressure to be relieved.

Likewise, he also argued that the Lions selection of Vickery was not necessarily the wrong one in the first test more that Alun Wynn-Jones was too lightweight behind and Mears far too small to the side so all the pressure was being taken by Vickery, and the scrum got smashed. With Shaw and Rees there it wasnt so much of an issue, albeit he's isnt the best scrummager.

Excellent post though I would say the Jones made a huge difference with pretty much the same pack to Vickery,
I guess its as you say a pack effort, if you have a 'weak link' at scrum time it can be helped with the right combination around them, a strong scrummager however would allow you the luxury of choosing from both 'lightweight' and more powerful players around them

PhatPiggins · 14-12-2009 6:58pm

Webbs wrote: »

I dont think Healy at scrum time did do that well in the final, he was pretty much constantly under pressure, however I thought the leinster pack collectively were excellent that day so nullified his shortcomings

Thats a point I tried to highlight when he was facing Botha before the SA game.

Healy has always done ok against Botha in the ML when part of the excellent Leinster tight 5 where as Botha pretty much carrys the lightweight Ulster tight 5.

Whithout a dominat TH and strong scrummaging hooker he was mangled(sometimes illegally)

14-12-2009 7:27pm

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

Why would he want to see Jackman??? The guy cannot throw, like at all. Fogerty has been starting for Leinster all season. Jackman even played against the Dragons so clearly Cheka see's Fogerty as his starting No.2.

It doesnt matter what hooker they play,Fogarty if you want.The hookers scrummaging is a mute point.

PhatPiggins · 15-12-2009 1:21pm

Peter Nervous Undershirt wrote: »

It doesnt matter what hooker they play,Fogarty if you want.The hookers scrummaging is a mute point.

Sorry but if your suggesting that the hookers scrummaging has no impact on the looseheads performance then you're incorrect.

irish scrum

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